| Author | Message | ||
     Red93stang |
I'm stumped, I have had this thing apart several times now and can't figure out why it's doing this. At first I thought it was a breather system problem. But I'm not even sure now. What happens is you will be riding along and all the sudden it sounds like someone sticks a knife in the front tire(sound) and it oils down the whole motorcycle. It blows out the left corner of the front valve cover. I have tried a new gasket, torqued to spec and in the correct torque sequence. Today I'm going to pressurize the front cylinder with air to see if it's a head gasket leaking compression into the timing side of the engine. Any other suggestions, am I missing something? | ||
| Hughlysses |
It might be good to cross-post this in the 1125 forum. Since many of those bikes have a lot of miles on them, you'll stand a better chance of finding someone who's run into the same issue. | ||
| Red93stang |
Agreed thanks Hugh, I'll post over there too. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Red - I've been up to my chin in 1125 stuff since late 07, never heard of this issue. This definitely bears further investigation. Z | ||
| Red93stang |
I have been looking through the 1125 manual since they are similar. I suspect a breather system problem but I'm not 100% sure on that yet. The 1125 uses a trans breather and the 1190 doesn't. The 1190 is a reed valve system and the 1125 is a open type system. I have it all back together right now. I can blow compressed air into the breather in the air box and get oil to push out of the fill side of the bike. With the valve cover off it would make gurgling noises up through the timing chain side of the head. Idk, I was just hoping some of the race guys had had something similar happen to them. | ||
| 1_mike |
Red - Blow the air from where the pressure actually comes from...the "crankcase". Pull the filler cap and blow low pressure (8 to 10 psi) air in from "that" direction...and see what happens. Doing it backward is gonna show much in the way of being accurate. Mike | ||
| Red93stang |
I will try that Mike, thanks as for I am out of ideas and stumped. I'm guessing that it should blow the reed valve off in the air box, am I thinking correct? | ||
| Red93stang |
Ok so I put a little bit of air to the fill side of the bike and I can see and hear the reed valve open in the air box. Seems like the breather system is working correctly. What else could I check? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Did you pull the spark plug and put air in the cylinder? That might confirm a blown head gasket. | ||
| Snacktoast |
Did you verify that the cover is flat, and that there is no damage to the mating surface on the head in this area? | ||
| Red93stang |
I was able to put air to the cylinder and verify the head gasket was good. I checked the cylinder head valve cover gasket surface and it was flat. I didn't check the valve cover itself but I didn't see any issues with it. I took it on a small ride just a little bit ago (5 miles) and no issues yet. At this point I'm wondering if it wasn't a clog of some sort in the breather system. | ||
| Zac4mac |
One of the big differences in 1125/1190RS/1190RX-SX is the swirl-port cams and a low-speed air bypass in the newest motors. I wonder if it's something with that bypass... Z | ||
| Stevel |
Red93stang, First, mount a air pressure gauge to the crankcase and ride the bike while monitoring the gauge. It is possible you have excessive blowby and the pressure is overwhelming the reed valve bleeder. This usually occurs when one of the cylinders has experienced piston ring failure. Another typical indicator is oil deposits on the spark plug of the offending cylinder. | ||
| Red93stang |
Stevel I would have thought that should have showed when I put air to the cylinder, correct? Zac What would be wrong with the air bypass? The hoses seem to be clear. I usually don't get stumped and can figure most stuff out on my own. Thanks for all of your input! What would be a normal crankcase pressure reading? (Message edited by red93stang on June 08, 2015) | ||
| 1_mike |
Red - Depends on the condition of your rings, and the rpm when you measure it. The crankcase pressure goes up with the rpm, regardless of the ring condition. Mike | ||
| Red93stang |
Gotcha, thanks Mike! | ||
| Hootowl |
Check for a stuck PCV valve? | ||
| Red93stang |
Took it on a short ride again (8 miles) and the gasket is starting to make its way back out. I guess my next step would be to remove both side covers (stator and water pump) to check the breather system? I have seen on another forum of bad castings for the water pump cover side, although it was a coolant in the crankcase problem. | ||
| Rodrob |
Just remove the breather tube from the airbox. Stick it out the side and ride it to see if anything is venting out the breather. There is really nothing here to fail. It's just a hole in the crankcase with a tube. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Might have a hole in a piston. | ||
| Red93stang |
I'm not thinking anything failed. I'm thinking something has worked loose or has a casting flaw. Piece of flashing, silicone or miss cut gasket. Why does it only blow the front valve cover and build that pressure in the front head only? Maybe I am overlooking something? | ||
| Oddball |
Red93stang, you mentioned the following on the other board. Perhaps mentioning it here will help the other's in the diagnosis of your problem. He was asked about his oil level. "Oil level is in the middle of the lines on a "hot check". I have noticed it is hard to get oil into this bike. I can only pour about 3oz at a time or it will back up and run all over the floor." | ||
| Red93stang |
I talked to Dean this afternoon and he said his was hard to get oil into also. | ||
| Alex |
No guarantee of what I am writing here is true as my last race engine build was a 1190RR and some years ago (so it may not be true for the 1190RX and maybe I don´t even recall correct): the front and the rear cylinder cam compartments are ventilated quite differently. The rear cylinder head cam compartment is directly connected to the left engine housing (generator compartment) while the front is connected to the right engine housing (clutch compartment). The left generator compartment is connected to the engine vent hose which means it is directly connected to the "outside" (read airbox). The right engine compartment is not directly connected to the "outside". Furthermore it is connected to the crank case through the transmission case. The only way for air trapped in the right compartment is through the oil pump. An oil - air mixture is picked up by the second stage of the oil pump, fed through the oil cooler and afterwards dumped back into the oil reservoir which is connected to the left engine compartment. In normal operation blow by seems not high enough as to pressurize the right engine compartment. In Your case excessive blow by could produce more "air" than what the oil pump can carry over to the oil reservoir / left engine compartment / engine vent hose causing to pressurize the front head valve cover. It doesn´t effect the rear cylinder as this is directly connected to the "outside". Hope this makes sense (and is true). | ||
| D_adams |
3 hoses go into the airbox, #3 is the crankcase vent, the other 2 (15 & 16) are front/rear cylinder vent hoses.  | ||
| Red93stang |
#15 and 16 are just air bypass hoses, they connect to the intake. #3 is the breather hose which directly vents the left side of the engine. The right side of the engine has no direct path to the atmosphere and has to be vented through the balance shaft in the top of the gear case. Thanks Alex, that is along the lines of what I am thinking. Their has to be something going on under the right side cover, casting flaw, silicone broke loose and is causing a clog. It pressurizes everything on that side. I noticed that the dummy plug for the old speed sensor location is bubbling oil. Thanks for all your guys input and keep it coming. | ||
| Alex |
I would not disassemble the right side cover right now. First of all I would do a leak down test. Now You may want to say that You already put air pressure to the cylinders with no result. Here is what I think: the problem might be that a leak down test will not work as with many other engines. Normally if You do a leak down test and have excessive piston ring wear the pressurized air will blow out of the engine vent line. Again: it is different with this engine. Blowing air past the piston rings will not be able to escape easily as it needs to be pressed through the oil filled oil pump and the oil filled oil cooler which from my point of view is a pretty decent blockage. So doing a leak down test might give a wrong result. Here is what I would do: one screw that holds the right engine cover is bored straight through into the right engine compartment. It is located right of the top (about in the middle of the front cam chain tunnel)and can be identified by a copper washer under the screw head. If You open up this screw the right engine compartment is vented direct to the outside. Now a leak down test may look different. Again - all information based on 1190RR and my weak brain :-) | ||
| Pmjolly |
The last time I changed the oil in my 1190RX, I thought I had a problem. I could not get all the oil into the crankcase. It backed up to the filler hole, and was not going down. I thought maybe I counted the number of quarts wrong that I had put in. I put the cap on the filler hole and started the motor, then shut it right off. The oil level went down. It did not back up again as I topped off the oil. It was really odd to me. My 1125 never did that. | ||
| Oddball |
What is the reasoning for not directly venting the front cylinder/right engine housing as stated by alex? His description sounds like a Rotax hookah. | ||
| Red93stang |
I don't know the reasoning behind it. But when you look at the motor and the way it's breather system is set up, it sure could have been design a lot less complicated. But then again it works and they are using the parts in the engine to do the job and saving weight in the process. They eliminated the rear breather from the 1125 days that went from the rear of the clutch case to the back side of the head. Which vented the right side of the engine back to the left side. So the 1125 has two paths back to the left side of the engine which vents directly to atmosphere (rear case vent and the counter balance shaft) | ||
| Pmjolly |
The right side vent from behind the clutch was eliminated for the 2010 1125 motor. I replaced the water pump and clutch housing on my 2008 1125 with upgraded 2010 parts, and there was no vent. I plugged the vent line that used to connect to the motor behind the clutch. | ||
| Ourdee |
I'm lost, Plugged oil return? | ||
| Red93stang |
I'm not sure yet. I'm waiting on a couple of special tools and gaskets before I go any further with it. I'll keep everybody posted on what happens. At this point I believe to have a obstruction in the breather system. | ||
| Red93stang |
I was able to check all the breather passages with the balance shaft out the way. All are clear, rigged up a way to put air to the cylinder and I hear no air coming out any passages. I'm going to clean everything the best I can and put it all back together and hope for the best. I did find something weird, a wasp or dirt dauber in the stator side of the engine. Looks like centrifugal force had taken its toll and took quit a ride on the rotor. LOL | ||
| Alex |
Did You take the above mentioned screw out of the right side cover? Have You pressurized both cylinders? | ||
| Red93stang |
Yes, I took the bolt out with the copper washer. I have not pressurized the the rear cylinder. But I can tonight. I would think it would smoke or have signs on the plug if I had a problem with rings. Correct? (Message edited by red93stang on June 23, 2015) | ||
| S21125r |
"...rigged up a way to put air to the cylinder and I hear no air coming out any passages" Below the rings both cylinders share the same "air space" so blow by in either the front or rear could be pressurizing the front cam compartment. Other than that I would suspect the scavage side of the oil pump may have an obstruction if that's the only means for the front to vent. Could be not only an air buildup but could be filling the front cam compartment with oil and hydrolocking it to the point that the gasket fails. | ||
| Red93stang |
"}Other than that I would suspect the scavage side of the oil pump may have an obstruction if that's the only means for the front to vent. Could be not only an air buildup but could be filling the front cam compartment with oil and hydrolocking it to the point that the gasket fails." That actually is a good theory and make sense as well. Thanks S21125R | ||
| Red93stang |
I found this in the strainer last night.   | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Metal or sealant/silicone/something similar? It's hard to tell from pics. Hopefully it's the latter. | ||
| Red93stang |
Its rubbery silicone based material. Sorry I posted this morning about half asleep. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well if you've got to find something, that's good! You think a clogged strainer was the culprit all along? | ||
| Red93stang |
Agreed! Thats all I am finding at the moment. I have found nothing else. I have the balance shaft out because Erik had told me they had a race motor with a similar issue that they found the balance shaft was not cross drilled. The breather system on this motor seems to be clear. | ||
| Red93stang |
I cleaned the screen last night and the particles feel like a coating, paint chips consistency or plastic material of some kind. Maybe the chain is cutting into the guide and could be completely normal. But its more material than I would like to see. | ||
| Snacktoast |
How thick are the pieces? Bit hard to tell from the photos. They almost look grey as opposed to black (chain tensioner material). | ||
| Red93stang |
Yes they are gray, they are very thin. | ||
| Snacktoast |
Wondering if that could be piston skirt coating. Not uncommon for it to wear off during break in, but flake off? Dunno, just a thought. | ||
| Alex |
Take a look at Your generator rotor and try to find out if the gray material could be from there. Regards Alex | ||
| Red93stang |
All the epoxy on the stator is good. Its more of a light gray. But I agree it seems to be some kind of coating. I just wonder how far it could have gotten. Should I pull the cooler and flush it? Or would it have even gotten that far? Seems that the round part of this strainer or upper part is just for the right side drain back and the material would have had to come from the right side of the motor. ie front cams, timing chain guides, and down to the clutch basket and oil pump area. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Red Mentioning the clutch basket, that stuff on your strainer kinda looks like the silicone sheet the clutch diaphragm laminate is coated with. Been trying to think of where that stuff came from... First thought was the silicone sealer used to seal the cases without a gasket. Z | ||
| Stevel |
My bet it that the flakes are from the piston(s) and the skirt coating was done incorrectly and is flaking. I hope I'm wrong though. | ||
| Red93stang |
I hope thats not the case Steve. Zac I have the clutch diaphragm out and apart. It all looks good. I'm going to clean the strainer and put it back to together. We will just see what happens. | ||
| Rodrob |
If it's rubbery, then I doubt it's piston coating which, IMHO, is not thick or resilient enough to come off like that anyway. You'd be finding flakes of piston skirt. I would definitely back wash the oil cooler. Here is a link to a video of mine using diesel fuel and a small submersible pump. Try this OUTSIDE at you own risk. https://www.dropbox.com/s/druv6taowpuhs65/IMG_1658 .MOV?dl=0 I would check the bottom of your cylinders to see if there is any excess gray sealer on the outside between the cylinder and case. That is a place where one might be tempted to use too much (any) in assembly. Were it me - I would pull the motor and disassemble as far as removing the heads and then carefully lifting the cylinders far enough to be able to wash out the crankcase and hopefully find the source. If any of that stuff gets into a bearing oil channel, you could very quickly have a paperweight. I'd also remove oil pump and make sure it's clean. I know it's a royal PITA! Sorry you are up against this. | ||
| Stevel |
Rob is correct. Disassembly is the best and safest recourse. It is quite possible this swarf has already trashed the engine bearings. Ai this point the engine is salvageable. With additional running, that may not be the case.......Good Luck | ||
| Red93stang |
Thanks for the replies guys. The sealer on the cases and the stator cover are dark blue in color. Still scratching my head on this one. Might have to push it into the corner till winter rolls around again. | ||
| Rodrob |
For the record, I have never used sealer on any of the cases of these motors, nor was it recommended that I do. | ||
| Red93stang |
Question I have is where does the strainer play into the oiling system. Does it go strainer, oil filter, oil pump, motor, then to the cooler? Is the upper part of the strainer (above the o-ring) just for the right side drain back? | ||
| Rodrob |
Ask Alex. He knows the path better than I. But as I understand it, part is for scavenge side of pump, part is for pressure side. Scavenge side takes oil and air to oil cooler then back to left side of motor. If scavenge side is blocked then right (front) air might not escape to breather and oil cooler would not be cooling oil and could be contaminated. But as I said, ask Alex. BTW, have you ever removed the oil pump? (Message edited by rodrob on July 06, 2015) | ||
| Alex |
Ok, I will try to give You a complete overview of the oil circuit (1125/1190RR): first of all we have a two stage oil pump consisting of a smaller and a wider pump section which operate independent of each other (no oil connection between the stages). Additionally the oil strainer we are talking about is a two stage strainer as well - consisting of a tubular and a flat section without connection between them. First let´s look at the "pressure" side: Oil is sucked into the smaller oil pump segment from the engine´s "sump". The oil makes its way through a passage in the right engine case towards the flat oil strainer. There it passes the flat strainer and finally arrives at the suction side of the smaller oil pump segment. Within the pump segment the oil is "pressurized" and fed to the oil filter. After the oil filter the oil is distributed to all lubricating spots. It never passes the oil cooler on this route. The oil return after lubrication is clearly divided into two seperated routes: 1. Oil from the left engine side (that is generator compartment and rear head valve train compartment)collects at the bottom of the generator compartment by simply draining back there by gravity. From there there is a plastic funnel guiding the oil back into the "sump". Take note that there is no pump involved to scavenge the oil back into the sump. 2. Oil from the right engine side (that is crank case compartment, transmission compartment, clutch compartment and front head valve train compartment): oil from the crankshaft compartment is scraped off the crankshaft and thrown into the transmission compartment from where it is guided to the tubular strainer. Oil from the transmission compartment itself takes the same way. Oil from the clutch compartment and front head valve train compartment collects at the tubular strainer, too. All this is beeing done by gravity (just like on the left engine side). Different from the left engine side the oil is now picked up by the wider second stage oil pump section (thereby passing the tubular strainer) and pumped through the oil cooler. After the cooler the oil is dumped back into the engine sump. Based on this information one can see that: - the engine lubricating oil is not fed through the oil cooler before getting to the lubrication points - the cooling system only uses scavenge oil from the right engine side - the grey particles found by Red93stang can not be from the generator (unless having been found in the flat strainer) - the right engine side has no direct connection to the atmosphere. Blow by from the piston rings is "pumped" out of the right engine side by the wider oil pump segment together with the ride side scavenge oil (through the oil cooler) to the left engine side which is vented to atmosphere - the gray particles found on the tubular strainer can only origin from the right side of the engine unless there is a major defect in the engine case | ||
| Red93stang |
Thanks Alex! Makes sense and this is why I am not finding anything in the left side of the engine. | ||
| Rodrob |
Thanks Alex. | ||
| Alex |
You´re welcome. No problem. | ||
| Hughlysses |
So it sounds like that in order for the debris from the right side to get to the bearings where it could do damage, it would have to get past the tubular strainer, through the scavenging pump, through the oil cooler, into the sump, through the pressure side of the oil pump, through the flat strainer, and through the oil filter? In other words, there's no chance debris from the right side of the engine can make it to the bearings. | ||
| Red93stang |
Yes thats the pathway I am understanding Hugh and thats the reason I am not finding anything on left side of the engine. The strainer did its job. | ||
| Stevel |
Alex did a wonderful job of explaining the scavenge system. I might add one thing to his explanation. Assuming adequate sealing everywhere, the scavenge stage of the oil pump should also pull a vacuum on that side of the motor and the crankcase, which will reduce windage losses normally associated with the spinning crank assembly. I believe this is the reason the engine is designed in the way it is. I have not actually tested this, but it will be something I will put on my to do list. Assuming I am correct and you are experiencing an overpressure situation, then there is a lot more wrong than just debris in the screen. | ||
| Red93stang |
Well same results all back together. Thanks Steve for that added info. It does not pull a vacuum on that side of the engine that's for sure. When I pull the copper washered bolt out on the right side it actually blows air out on start up. I just have to make a choice of whether to pull it apart myself or hope EBR gets back online and take it back to the dealer and let them take care of it. I just hate to have someone else work on this bike that has no experience with this engine. I guess I will have to wait anyway cause I won't be able to get back on it for a couple of weeks. Decisions decisions! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well, in a little over a week you should at least find out who, if anyone, is buying EBR and that may give you some idea of your future prospects for getting it fixed under warranty. | ||
| Red93stang |
We will see, I wish them all the best of luck! | ||
| Hughlysses |
Jeff- I just noticed an 1125R for sale cheap in Florida (posted on the BuellXB group page) that apparently has this same issue. If it happens to 1125's, it sure seems like someone would be able to diagnose it quickly. | ||
| Red93stang |
Thanks Hugh! I just posted on his thread. | ||
| Stevel |
Red93stang, Have you disassembled the motor yet. I'm very curious what the fault is. | ||
| Red93stang |
No I haven't had a chance to get back to it. Life, wife and kids are getting in the way this summer. |
