| Author | Message | ||
     Workman482 |
Now that my closest dealer is down to 10k for a RX I'm contemplating trading my HD for one. I'm not new to sport bikes, Buells either. My last sport bike was a '08 1125R. It would be used as a DD with spirited street riding. Possibly minor track time if I can find one close enough. How do the 1190's compare to the 1125's for daily duty? Does it get as hot as the 1125's did? | ||
| 1_mike |
I have an 09, 1125CR, bought new. I now am on an 1190RX, bought new. The RX is NOTHING like the CR FROM the dealer. The CR needed a LOT of fuel and ignition timing to run even close to correctly. At least mine did. Once I got it to about 85 or 90% correct, it was an ok daily driver. I was constantly trying different settings to make it better. It is now awaiting new exhaust cam on the front cylinder...has been ! The RX...while it also needs timing and some fuel here and there...it's a MUCH better daily driver (81 miles a day). Some complain about the 1190's clutch pull...I see no problem there what so-ever with the stock parts. The light clutch springs aren't a good idea for the canyons or track days. This is directly from Adam (EBR). Until we can get the "race" ECM again, the biggest thing it needs...as did the 1125's, is the solenoid connected to the throttle bodies needs to be removed/disconnected, and the TB linkage tied together. The bike is VERY light steering, nimble as hell. Traversing thru stop and go freeway traffic can be a little hectic until you get the hang of the bikes light steering. Overall...I'm very happy that I didn't buy the 2015 Yamaha R1, like I was originally going to do. Even without any warranty...so far..! Mike P.s. - I drive the SoCal freeway system every day, four different freeways... (Message edited by 1_mike on June 12, 2015) | ||
| Workman482 |
Thanks for the info Mike! I've read about the clutch pull, but as a heavy equipment mechanic I don't foresee that being a problem. What about heat generation? My 1125 would roast me in the summer. Even after ceramic coating the headers and insulating the frame it was pretty warm. | ||
| 1_mike |
Yea, we've had a coupla warm days so far. I wrapped the rear (so far) header in basically two layers of the DEI header wrap. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dei-010130/overv iew/ While I still feel the heat, it made a very noticeable difference. I think the water pump and clutch thank me for it too. The rear tube is way too close to these parts. I still need to do the front, but I need more time than I have right now because of a car I'm trying to finish. But I want to take the front tube off to do that one. I'd like to take the rear off too, but there's a ton of work to do that. I managed to get the wrap up to the AF sensor and continue to the muffler with a LOT of overlap. Like I said, basically two layers. I did the same to my 09 CR also. I had the old white stuff on it when the new "titanium" stuff came out. I bought a roll and pulled all the white wrap off and wrapped it with the "new" titanium wrap. Made a good difference. Another key thing will be the EBR "race" ECM if it ever becomes available again. From what Adam (EBR) told me, it has more ignition timing in most areas, which will go a long way in reducing the engine heat. I know when I added timing to my CR...that made a huge heat reduction difference. Go for it, happy I did... Mike | ||
| Froggy |
I have two 1125s and an 1190SX, all bought new, stock fueling feels about on par for all three, there clearly is an EPA chokehold on the 1190 which can easily be fixed once a tuning option becomes available. The 1190 does better with heat, on my 1125s I would sometimes feel the fans blowing heat onto me, this is not the case on the 1190s as the fans are ducted outwards. I have not noticed any heat coming directly from the engine or exhaust on either 1125 or 1190. The 1125 is a fine daily driver as long as you are not in stop and go or city traffic all day. I haven't had enough seat time on the 1190 to get stuck on it in low speed traffic to get a good feel yet, but it seems to do a little better than the 1125. I don't like how the final drive gearing on the 1190 is significantly taller, which makes using 6th gear difficult, and means I am slipping the clutch till about 20mph vs 7mph on my 1125CR. | ||
| Workman482 |
Thanks for the input froggy. Wouldn't the 1190 being chain driven make it easier to change final ratios through sprocket changes? Theoretically though since I don't have a good idea on sprocket availability. | ||
| Workman482 |
Will the tanks pads and frame pads I used on my 1125 work on the 1190? | ||
| 1_mike |
Yea...the fans may be "ducted" slightly outward, but the air will actually go pretty much straight back at anything over about 15mph..! And the fuel mapping was defiantly different in my as delivered 1125CR vs. my RX. VERY much different. Call On Track Powersports for sprockets as only the 41 tooth are currently available. On Track found the original manufacturer and can get other tooth count options. I have 43 tooth on order. http://ontrackpowersports.com/ Mike | ||
| Workman482 |
Do the front pads have the same problem with street riding that the 1125's did stock? With the pad material not cleaning itself properly from the rotor. | ||
| D_adams |
2015 compound pads seem to work well if you meant the pulsing problem. | ||
| Workman482 |
That's the one D_adams. Front brakes gave me a fit and didn't inspire confidence on my 1125 until I changed the pads and cleaned the rotor. Didn't want to have the same problem with a 1190 when I pick one up. | ||
| 1_mike |
You mention brakes. Crappy design...somewhere in the caliper. I've been on bikes since 1985. Never (hardly never) have I had the braked drag like the Buell brakes drag. I've had a total of four Buells (two 6 piston and two four piston bikes). After my drive to work, the several Yamaha FZR and R1's and one Suzuki, I could grab the rotors after my 40 mile drive to work. The Buell's, not even close...much too hot. Also I've noticed that when backing my RX into the garage at night, the front pads/rotor (?) vibrates and makes an odd noise. Only when backing it up... While they basically stop me fine, the pistons NEED to retract (farther ?) to lessen the friction, pad to rotor, like most other calipers. And no, I checked for too much fluid holding the pistons out...on all of my Buells...no luck there either. Mike | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Have you checked the run out? I'd check the rim too. | ||
| Classax |
The ZTL2 does drag more than your average free floating rotor but that drag gets rid of the grabbiness most people refer to as initial bite. As for daily driving, my RX does fine in stop and go traffic in the heat and humidity of Houston. If you put-put around below 4K you can average 50mpg like a really sexy scooter. I don't commute much on it any more because I don't have a spare set of wheels and this bike's stock exhaust gets the rear very soft and it EATS rear tires like no tomorrow. That and the fact that it is so light and nimble and builds speed so smoothly its just too easy to blow through traffic and license loosing speeds. Better for backroads and the track | ||
| Dmhines |
The RX/SX is a better daily than the old R/CR was .. my CR ran painfully hot even with the EBR Race ECM .. and was the primary reason I got rid of it... My RX is much cooler. | ||
| 1_mike |
Figor - If your note is to me, there's no current concern to check the rotor or wheel runout. The extra friction has nothing to do with the wheel/rotor not being true. I have no pulsing problems. Dmhines - After messing with my CR's ECM, the "heating" isn't/wasn't a problem at all. Classax - I've never had any "grabbyness" in any other bike I've had...! I did...at about 1800 or 1900 miles "start" to have a problem. I noticed after getting home one day, that the rotor was darker than normal. I wiped my finger across it and got "stuff" on my finger. I also saw what appeared to be hot spots starting to develop. I wiped the rotor with a cleaner and the rag turned black with...what-ever it was. Hmm, leaking caliper pistons..? No, the caliper was dry, the wheel (rim, spokes and hub) were dry..!? It's taken about 3+ weeks but the "marks" on the rotor are almost gone and the "stuff" on the rotor hasn't come back (at 3300+ miles). Except for the extra unwanted/uneeded friction, the brakes are fine...so far..! Mike | ||
| Workman482 |
1_Mike, sounds like residual pad residue. Do you remember if you did any emergency braking or harder than normal braking? I would imagine backing would give a different sensation while braking due to the rotor being slotted and the pads being bedded in the opposite way. | ||
| Classax |
1 Mike - by grabbyness I mean that the ZTL2's tend to drag about the same as conventional set ups but way more than the typical rattler(full floating) rotors common on this class or bike today. That said the conventional full floaters allow the pads to retract further from the rotor and upon application travel a (minute but measurable) distance to contact the rotor. There is no resistance during this initial travel but is goes up suddenly upon contact. The net result in terms of FEEL is you get a lot more initial bite with your stopping power seeming to come in the front part of the lever travel as opposed to the latter. Not to mention less thermal transfer from pad to piston to fluid. The conventional full floaters enjoy the benefit of reduced rotor drag, additional cooling and slightly longer pad life. All equal resistance to fade but by comparison to floating caliper designs are grabby ( less predictable contact and release of the rotor) requiring a light touch to modulate on and off the brakes. The ZTLs are more like a race car rigid rotor floating caliber set up where the pads never really actually leave the rotor surface and follow it with almost no pressure. When you apply the brakes because there is no build up of fluid pressure before the pads contact the rotor you get a very linear feel, so that brake pressure correlates directly to plunger position. The trade off is a little more drag and pad wear, for better modulation and use of the rotor itself as a heat sink for pad cooling. In the case of the ZTL2 that also includes the wheel as well. Where the ZTL design does fall down is because its blocked from air flow and places all the work(Heat) in a single caliper body its sensitive to pad material and wants to be used in the materials optimal temp range or it will develop deposits. Constant contact with the heat sink allows heat soak from rotor to pad to piston to caliper and fluid. Pick the wrong pads for how you are riding and you can get FADE. Putzing around town with race compound pads or taking it to the track with street pads doesn't work well. The ZLT illustrate this more than any other bike I've ridden. I have come to like them, but finding the right pad compound for my pace and braking style has been a pain in the wallet. | ||
| Workman482 |
I thinks thats the best explanation I've heard for the ZTL2 caliper system Classax. I know the stock pads on the 1125's were horrible for street riding due to not being able to stay in their optimal heat range and would leave deposits as a result. | ||
| 1_mike |
Are we talking the same things here..? My last bike, a 2012 BMW, S1000RR, and "similar" (brake wise) to it, my 03 Yamaha R1. The BMW has a similar caliper, "SOLIDLY" mounted to the back side of the fork leg lower. JUST like the EBR 1190RX. The differences 1. (2), 4 piston vs 6 piston 2. The 4 piston is lighter 3. The pistons in the S1000RR retract properly, vs the EBR not retracting properly. 4. The rotors on both float (sorry no difference!). 5. You can grab hold of the BMW rotors after my 4:30am drive to work with no resulting blisters! NOT so with the EBR rotor. There's "NO" reason that the EBR pistons could not be made to retract properly...AND still work properly. The excessive heat in the EBR rotor is a waste of horse power, a waste of gas mileage. The BMW brakes worked just fine, actually fairly similar to the EBR brakes, except for the excessive heat. Sure, brakes need heat to work, heat is the resultant effect of friction...I fully understand the physics behind how brakes work. I find it odd that some things on or about the EBR bikes seem to be almost other worldly to some. It's all "basic" physics...it's the "excessive"...heat that is a waste of resourses...period. Mike | ||
| Dennis_c |
Are you saying that EBR brakes are causing global warming.  (Message edited by dennis c on June 17, 2015) | ||
| Rodrob |
I've never had brake drag on my 1125R or 1190RS brakes. In fact, just the opposite. I get too much pad to rotor clearance which results in excessive, IMHO, lever free-play. I'd be interested to find out why I am on one end of the spectrum and you guys are on the other. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Mike I think yours ain't working right. BTW the EBR is an 8-pot and both my rotors are cool after a half-hour ride. Z | ||
| Classax |
1. ZTL2's have 1 caliper with 8 pistons 2. 2x 4 piston calipers have repeatedly been proven to be heavier than a single 8 piston caliper. (granted the amount is enough to truly matter, but facts are facts) 3. Pistons don't "Retract" per say, my poor choice of words. Sans the pressure from the plunger on the fluid they allow the pad to skim the rotor surface on a with little or NO pressure. Any force at all can push them back into the bore. If the rotor wobbles, you have a head shake, run through water or have slots, air or vibration can back them off the rotor surface to varying degrees. If a piston gets stuck it can't glide back into the bore despite their being not pressure holing it in position against the pad/rotor. 4.Conventional Set ups on mono block bikes are all semi rigid(regardless of what the marketing guys say). Full floaters allow the rotor to move on the buttons to avoid contact with the pads. The movement helps to push the pistons back into the bore. The EBR ZTL rotor is nearly FIXED it has almost zero float. https://youtu.be/jJPCy2AsULo for a visual. Your BMW and every other conventional caliper setup out there with the caliper on the rear side of the front rotor has the OPEN face of the caliper and the Pads directly facing on coming airflow with the body of the caliper facing the rear of the bike. The ZTL is inside out (and backwards) in that it mounts on the ID of the rotor and the caliper body is to the front of the bike and the pads are in the rear. Cooling air is admitted through channels in the caliper body. To Rodrob's point I don't see the ZTL as dragging any more than a fixed or "semi floating" rotor set up. About the same as any floating caliper set up I've seen. It does drag more than a full floating rotor but that is kind of the whole point of having a full floating (rattle) rotor to begin with, DRAMATICALLY reduce rotor drag. I don't see the ZTL as generating excessive heat, its supposed to turn kinetic energy into heat by way of friction. It does that very well. What I do find is that pads designed for conventional set ups work best in a certain temp ranges. Ride outside that pads optimum temp ranges and you have issues. The design of the ZTL narrows that temp range and compounds the issues. Too cool and you get deposits too hot and you get fade. 5. My rotors are fairly cool after even fairly aggressive street rides. They only get "hot" at two or three of my local area tracks. I think Zac4mac is right Mike, you may want to have it checked out. (Message edited by classax on June 18, 2015) |
