| Author | Message | ||
     Wymaen |
Take that extra fuel away, they'll come up a lap or two short of finishing. Doubtful- that would mean that the engineers were designing the bike to run with all 22L for the 75 mile race. Knowing that the extra fuel allotment is a concession to even the playing field rather than a boon to give a true advantage, there is no way that Ducati would be so foolish as to design an engine management strategy that wasn't conservative enough to make sure that just under 20L is needed for race distance. Then again, wasn't it a group of Italians that decided an extra quart of oil was a good idea in the WSBK EBR machines? | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Maybe I am being simplistic but wouldn't they just change the engine mapping to deal with whatever fuel limitations they have to deal with (or extra fuel in this case.)? And how much actual HP does this extra 10%of fuel give the Ducati over 75 miles? Does the rider have control over the engine map at any given time? IE can he choose a richer map for maximum HP? | ||
| Jaimec |
The more fuel you have, the more horsepower you can create without having to worry about running out. Changing the mapping usually results in less power if you're trying to stretch out your available fuel for race distance. It's part of the TANSTAAFL principle. Couple of years ago Dani Pedrosa lost the lead in a race when the bike's computer thought he was running low on fuel and switched the map to run leaner. He actually had more than enough fuel, but thanks to the buggy computer, ended up finishing off the podium. All things being equal, more available fuel = more available horsepower. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I understand the principle of more gas equals more power. I was curious if a MotoGP bike would be designed differently (hard parts) if it was going to use 24L versus 20L of fuel, or if this was all handled by engine mapping. I assume engine mapping, but I certainly stand to be corrected ... also, the Ducatis were always fast in a straight line. It was everything else that was a problem. It will be interesting to see the difference when they have to come down to 20L like the other factory bikes (if they have to come down to 20L?????). (Message edited by fresnobuell on June 03, 2015) | ||
| Jaimec |
When the bikes first changed to 800cc, the Ducatis were DEFINITELY faster than any of the other bikes on the grid, and it was due to their Desmodromic valve systems. Once all of the other competitors switched to pneumatic, the advantage went away. Last year's Open Class Hondas had solid lifters and they suffered a huge horsepower deficit because of it (well, that and other things). This year the engines are identical to the Factory bikes. Only the transmissions and electronics differ. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatic_valve_sprin gs Wiki might be my favorite site ever. For those curious about pneumatic valve springs as I was.... | ||
| Jaimec |
I've been reading articles that Honda painted themselves into a corner by tuning their engines for maximum horsepower above all else, and now that the season has started the Factory riders are pretty much stuck as the engines are sealed and can no longer be changed until after the last race of the season. But it just dawned on me that the engine freeze does NOT affect the Open Hondas of Nicky Hayden or Karel Abraham. Wouldn't Honda be free to modify their engines and get feedback in preparation for 2016? Since they'll all have to run the same electronics next year, wouldn't that give them a leg up? Of course, Yamaha would be free to do the same thing with the Forward bikes raced by Stefan Bradl and Loris Baz... | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
I thought thats what the tech bikes were for? | ||
| Jaimec |
If you're talking about Tech3, no... those bikes have the same "Engine Freeze" in place as the Factory bikes. Same with the satellite Hondas raced by Scott Redding and Cal Crutchlow. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
So those nitrogen holding tanks for the pneumatic springs are set at 200 bar! That's 2900 PSI. Refilled at 180 bar, about 2600 PSI, after an hour of run time. I would hate to see one get punctured in a crash. | ||
| Fast1075 |
The last thing to fail in a crash would be the nitrogen tank, and since it has only vapor in it, it could deform substantially without rupture. The tank is "robust" to say the least. In this case, probably a Titanium/carbon hybrid vessel to save weight. Not likely to fail under any condition except deliberate action. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I would still hate to see one fail in a crash. | ||
| Jaimec |
I'm just wondering what happens to all that compressed nitrogen when the bike catches fire. We've seen that happen already this year (though the bike in question thankfully didn't have pneumatic valves)... | ||
| Firstbuell |
nitrogen is inert | ||
| Fast1075 |
And the tank will have a safety blow off well below burst pressure. Since it is not in liquid form, it would rapidly escape without much fuss. If it was a full nitrous cylinder that some nimno has replaced the blowoff with a plug, things could get nasty indeed. Nitrous is stored as a liquid, and without a blow off, it would hydraulic the cylinder with catastrophic consequences. Idiot had been filling his nitrous cylinders by "feel". In doing so, they had ruptured the blow offs. He replaced them with pipe plugs. One cold day at Bradenton, he decided to warm one up by placing it where the exhaust from his generator would blow on it. It exploded. Pieces of bottle went off like schrapnel. Thru nearby trailers, Thru the fender of a nearby truck, etc. Amazingly no one was hit. The generator took a large piece of tank to the crankcase and was totaled. An aluminum nitrous/CO2 tank is over 3/8" thick. The top of the tank was found several hundred feet away. Can you say Kaboom?!?!?! | ||
| Jaimec |
Nitrogen is inert, but any gas that gets heated is going to expand and rapidly exceed the rated pressure of the container. Then you have a potential fragmentation grenade on your hands. I was at a dive shop once when the safety release valve on a scuba tank blew. The tank flew out of the water-filled tub it was in and went careening around the store room smashing nearly everything in its path. After several minutes it was safe to go back into the room. The tank was covered in frost ice and the room was in a shambles. The pressure release was a brass disk designed to blow before the tank exceeded safe pressure (roughly 3,000 psi). The hole in the brass disc was only slightly bigger than a pinhole; that's how much force the expelled air created, but it would've been a helluva lot worse if the tank itself blew. | ||
| Con_brio |
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/265636/heidfeld -s-fire-caused-by-overheating-exhausts/ | ||
| Reepicheep |
No wonder it blew up, it had little lego men putting out the fire.  | ||
| Fresnobuell |
So these blowoff valves have a regulator of some sort that would control the gas as it escapes? | ||
| Jaimec |
On the scuba tank, it is only the diameter of the opening that controls how quickly the gasses escape. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I figured a blowoff valve is exactly that--a hole. I am trying to picture 2900PSI escaping uncontrolled "without a fuss." | ||
| Jaimec |
Yeah... THAT ain't happening...  | ||
| Fast1075 |
Suzuki brought their "A" game this race. Esparago rode brilliantly in qualifying. Vinales has really picked up since the move from Moto 2. Two hungry riders, and a manufacturer determined to regain the glory. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
That was good of Marquez to NOT take out Lorentho. | ||
| Jaimec |
Rossi will do a lot better on Sunday by NOT gifting his team mate a head start on Saturday... | ||
| Gaesati |
It looks like the big boys don't want to play with Marques anymore. He is aggressive and they shut him out. I wonder how long before he learns to play nice. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I made a comment during silly season about how this year's Championship would more than likely be different for Marquez because the planets would not align for him--like they did last year. Funny how things in life tend to even themselves out. Marquez is having a big time reality check right now. Between having to contend with Lorenzo checking out at the front and Rossi tracking him down from behind, he's scrambling to find his way. And JamieC is right, Rossi needs to get a better start. He can run at the leader's pace but he loses too much ground getting to 2nd position. | ||
| Gaesati |
Everybody needs a good start at this level of racing. Rossi least of all. He has almost always been fast enough to conserve his tyres whilst following the leader until he pounces near the end. If Rossi is third or fourth out of the first corner I think he will win. Lorenzo's disadvantage is that if he can't get out of the ruck by the end of the first lap he will probably lose. Apart from his machine difficulties this year, Marques has had the ability to ride closer to the edge than anyone. Coupled with this has been his aggressive style and ability to intimidate his opponents. Lorenzo was the first to lose patience with Marques at P.I. 2 years ago and collide with Marques when he tried to block Lorenzo's line. Since then I think that Lorenzo and Rossi, at the least, have pushed Marques wide or brake checked him whenever he gets too close and aggressive. Marques will keep falling until he learns to leave a bit more space for other riders at the top. I also predict that The suzukis riders will find Crutchlow much less forgiving in the future when they try an inside pass on him. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
agreed. Even at his age ("advanced" in terms of top level motorcycle racing), he still is a master at his craft. I think the big off when he badly fractured his ankle/shin was in his head for some time. Then of course he compounded the issue by moving to Ducati. Now that he has a very competitive bike and has regained the confidence he lost after his first major injury, he is fighting for the title AGAIN. I don't think people realize how good he really is.
Agreed, however the last few races Rossi has been 7th or so into the first corner. | ||
| Jaimec |
V A L E N T I N O - R O S S I ! ! ! Took the pole and broke Marquez' record at the same time. Lorenzo finds himself starting from Rossi's typical spot on the third row. Tomorrow morning can't come soon enough. |
