| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
Last year they had 2 DNF's in race 1, 19th and 20th in race 2. Incrementally better I guess. | ||
| Ljm |
Positive that they finished both, and scored a point in the first race. Interesting comment by someone at EBR (that I can't find again) that they are at 205 whp, compared to the rest 20 hp more. Will be interesting on the later tracks. | ||
| Henshao |
161 wheel horsepower in stock tune. 205 wheel horsepower in race tune. Exactly how high is the redline on those bikes?? | ||
| Classax |
The 1199 is finally looking really strong. The short stroke Vtwin appears to be a viable option for combating the I & V 4s. Chas was flawless. 2nd race saw Canepa go off wide 4 times and twice in the first race. He may be starting to over ride it. They have to find more power. Unfortunately I just don't think you can get much more out of 1190 long stroke configuration. It's great on the street and for club racing but I think it may be out classed in superbike. But its only the second round so we'll see soon enough. | ||
| Henshao |
Canepa has said there is more power to be found in these bikes but it will have to be homologated into the next season. | ||
| Jaimec |
At least Larry is no longer the only EBR rider to ever score points in WSBK.  | ||
| Neutrum |
"2nd race saw Canepa go off wide 4 times and twice in the first race. " have you been there or do you have an onboard cam? you can't have that from the tv-footage. "But its only the second round so we'll see soon enough." third (pi - thailand - aragon) i was there, same spot as last year (breaking zone long straight). first: there have been a lot less spectators than last year. ebr: it seems, that they tried hard to stay with the satellite-kawas, but they couldn't. pegram was alone on almost every pass. canepa with the two brake rotors was breaking far later than pegram with one rotor-setup. canepa was scraping elbows in the ultimate left corner, impressive. and it was a pretty boring sunday. superstock1000 and supersport was ok. it think, wsbk is dead...or dying at least...that was the last time i went to a race. i still don't have a clue what they (ebr) think they could gain out of this exercise. actually nobody cares about them. there is just kawasaki, ducati and aprilia and everybody else is pretty much forgotten. (Message edited by Neutrum on April 13, 2015) | ||
| Henshao |
You wouldn't by chance be a Harley executive, Neutrum? :P why does ANYONE race | ||
| Nobuell |
I agree with Neutrum. I cannot for the life of me determine why EBR is competing in WSBK. Their performance last year and so far this year is not going to sell bikes in Europe. Not competing in the US is not going to help sales here. If they are developing a new motor (I doubt it), why race now and destroy an image. The way I see it, the EBR marketing plan is failed WSBK racing, no US racing and Corey driving around in a van, going to track days with EBR bikes. Not very impressive. I am not a HD executive, I love Buell's and want to see EBR succeed. I do track a Buell 1125R. I just do not understand what the long term game for EBR is? Flame on guys. | ||
| Henshao |
It might be just as simple as Erik wanting to race. He's not going to be the man forever. | ||
| Tpoppa |
I tend to agree. Circulating at the back of the pack, engine issues, DNFs, and DNSs aren't winning many international fans. I can't imagine EBR motorcycle sales are anywhere close to being profitable at this point. They must have a very lucritive engineering agreement with Hero, and be using that revenue to prop up the motorcycle and racing efforts. | ||
| Ebmachine |
If EBR is really serious about doing well in WSBK, next year, they need to develop a race-spec model like Ducati did. They need a bigger bore, shorter stroke, better designed crankshaft, along with titanium connecting rods and valves. Decreasing the reciprocating weight will allow higher RPM horsepower and better reliability. As an alternative, get a different engine for the race-spec model like installing the Aprilia V4 in the EBR. I doubt Erik would select an engine that is already racing in WSBK. He would try to find an untapped resource like he did with the Barton 750. Those days are gone. You either need to develop your own horsepower, or get out of the way of the big boys. Hindsight is 20/20. EBR would likely be running at the head of the pack in Superstock. BMW is in a similar situation and they probably have more resources than EBR. BMW is struggling in WSBK, but they won the first round of the Superstock race. Backpedaling to Superstock would be hard to do now. Continuing to run at the back of the pack in WSBK next year will lose fans. Must go faster… They need a new race-spec motor or new engine. The race-spec motor will be cheaper and quicker to develop. They will need to homologate it. I don’t know enough about the WSBK series to know if they can begin testing a race-spec motor this year. If they run out of engines this year and start from the pits, can they run a race-spec motor and develop it for next year? | ||
| Henshao |
“He's a nice person to work with, and quite fast too,” added Canepa. “He knows the bike inside-out. Now we have to focus on engine power but, given its configuration, there's not much we can do unless we homologate new components. We're closer to the limit, and I want to thank the team for working so hard during the winter, but there's still room for improvement so I'm confident.” Canepa was about 15 km/h (a little over 9 mph) slower than the frontrunners on the straight, but made the most of the bike's unique features. “From a chassis point of view, the 1190 RX has an edge,” he said. “Compared with Ducati, it's more stable in the corners, but it also has less horsepower. To see some Panigales behind made me both proud and sad.” http://www.sportrider.com/ebrs-canepa-says-engine- power-only-drawback | ||
| Nobuell |
A company must want to race in the international arena for a reason. It can be to enhance R&D and/or marketing/sales but not just because. Racing just to race for a company can have many ill effects as we have seen. Much larger companies than EBR have made decisions not to race based on the best interests for the company. To do otherwise is not a very good business plan. You do not see KTM in WSBK, why? EBR had to know since they started WSBK that they would be at a HP advantage. At this level of competition, being 20 or 30 HP down is a huge disadvantage. As Classax identified, the EBR engine may not be cut out for the high HP requirements to be competitive. It is a 9 year old design that may be perfectly suited to street use, but not capable of world level competition. I am an EBR fan but I am baffled by their marketing, racing and model introduction to date. | ||
| Tpoppa |
If EBR is developing a new race engine (doubt it), I REALLY hope it isn't a twin. With all due respect to the Panigale motor, 4 cylinders make for better racing engines. Honestly, the big bore, short stroke Panigale motor was bastardized to behave like a 4 cyl anyway. It traded off much of it's street-ability to make top end HP. If you're going to build a motor to behave like an I4...just build an I4. (Message edited by tpoppa on April 13, 2015) | ||
| Hughlysses |
I have no doubt that EBR can develop a competitive engine, but I wonder how much more they can do with the ET-V2 under the current rules. I couldn't find an up-to-date article on the rules, but here's what an article from last year said about the 2015 rules:
So they can change cams and they can do porting. They can't weld, but can they use epoxy or similar? (Wouldn't work for exhaust obviously). I'd guess they can't change bore or stroke. If they find that different valves and/or springs are required, can these be updated and homologated this year, or are they stuck with what they have for the remainder of the year? The fact that they've been able to get ~40 more horsepower out of this engine under these rules is pretty amazing in itself. It just doesn't seem likely there's another 20-25 HP to be had without changes which would require re-homologation. | ||
| Henshao |
Does anyone remember the marketing campaign for Godzilla 1998? City buses painted green, "His foot is as long as this bus." Subway posters, teasers, toys, etc. Movie sucked but boy did they ever sell it. I'm pretty sure a lot of people don't even know the 1190RX is for sale and it happened last year. | ||
| Nobuell |
The Ducati motor can be tweaked make HP at higher RPM. It has an advantage the EBR does not, Desmodromic valves. High revving V twin motors with valves the size required to flow correctly most likely cannot be accomplished with springs. It is very hard to beat physics. Think of the pneumatic valves in Moto GP. Henshao - I guess what you are saying is given enough marketing exposure, one can sell something even if it sucks.  | ||
| Vagelis46 |
EBR must stay in WSBK..... The exposure EBR gets from WSBK is 100% positive..This year the bike runs midpack in qualifying and in the races.. The problem so far is reliability , but this will be fixed soon ...When Canepa says the chassis of the EBR is the best he has has ever raced, it means a great deal ! The 1190RX must be stressed to its maximum in order to find its flaws and start the process to improve it...Parts developed in WSBK will leaad to better street bikes for us.... more reliable with better performance ! ! In AMA the EBR was competitive, but it did not happen in 1 week. It takes time .... WSBK is tougher than AMA so it will take longer..... Will EBR ever win a WSBK championship ?? NO , but it doesn't matter .... I think that is better to be part of the game and run midpack , than to not compete at all.... Races improve sportbikes for the public... I am optimistic.... In Aragon it was the first time Canepa managed to finish a single race with EBR in WSBK....imagine his psycology before this round...Race 1 in Australia he had a mechanical failure that forced him to crash and break his ankle, RACE 2 he DNS....Race 1 in Thailand he had overheating problems and he was forced to retire and DNS for race 2... So he went to Aragon with not knowing what to expect... He finished both races , and now he will push harder in Assen for a result ... 5 days to go for Assen ..... | ||
| Hootowl |
When does the patent run out on Ducati's valve actuation mechanism? But does that matter? Isn't the limiting factor piston speed right now? | ||
| Vagelis46 |
There is no patent for Desmo..... | ||
| Classax |
""2nd race saw Canepa go off wide 4 times and twice in the first race. " have you been there or do you have an onboard cam? you can't have that from the tv-footage." Combination of the live timing and TV, he had a couple offs and went wide a few times in both races, he's definitely pushing the bike. The 1190RX is more a everyman's machine than super elite bleeding edge, spare no expense racer. In stock trim its as quick as any but far easier to ride. When you start talking about modding it for an extra 40HP, I just don't see this type of engine being able to do that and stay together. The math says they can do 190 at the crank all day long, 200 is getting into premature stress territory, 210 is top fuel complete teardown every run and beyond that its a grenade with a lit fuse. They have two issues that play off each other, they need more HP but they also need more RPMs. To a certain extent you can get the former if you have some wiggle room in the latter, but a high torque engine (which we all LOVE,)by its very nature is going to give up both. Even if they could increase the bore, and max the compression, the springs aren't going to let them spin it much faster so... they're stuck a few kmph/K RPMs slower than their short stroke rivals. That they are even mid pack at all is actually astounding! The next closest machine the RC8 won't even make the attempt for the very reasons stated above.(even though they slaughter the club scene in the right hands) Having said all that, my man Johnny Rea is killing it! The success of BSB has lead to great feed stock for WSBK. | ||
| Hootowl |
"There is no patent for Desmo....." I've read that Ducati holds several patents related to it. They didn't invent it though, so there has to be room for others to adopt the idea. But...is valve speed the problem? Can they get another 1000 RPM, or even 500, out of ti rods? Or is EBR looking at a shorter stoke, bigger bore to get more power? Smaller-lighter-more valves? | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Asking why EBR wants to race WSBK is kinda like asking why Aprilia wants to race in Moto GP. | ||
| Henshao |
EBR 1190 Bore x Stroke is 106 x 67.5 mm. If we accept the maximum (mean) piston speed that can be maintained as around 25m/s then that would be reached at approximately 11112rpm with a 67.5mm stroke. Stock bike revs to 10500rpm. Dyno tests for the 1190 gave peak torque as 87ft/lbs at the wheel so if the 1190 could carry that to 11112rpm it would produce 184 wheel horsepower. Somehow somewhere it is claimed they found another 20 wheel hp (205hp) so that puts them at an actual rear wheel torque of 96.8ft/lbs assuming 11112rpm redline (in reality EBR could be a little beyond 25m/s for piston speed but not too far) Making a bunch of assumptions but it is clear that even in stock form these bikes are spinning almost as high as they can. I don't think the limiting factor is necessarily valve springs considering the piston speeds here. Then again we saw top end failures in previous races didn't we? Would certainly seem to imply that they have settled for a certain target RPM that won't cause bottom end failures and now are trying to keep the top end happy. But I'm no engineer. (Message edited by henshao on April 14, 2015) | ||
| Ljm |
Redline is 11,500. From the specs as released during the AIM expo. Reason I mention it is that tuning may well make extend the peak power higher given your extrapolation of peak power. Not to 205 though, but closer. Seems to me as an amateur that if peak power is at the redline, you are running close to the limit, and a mis-shift would grenade the motor, like it did for Pegram last year at Laguna Seca. Amounts to the same thing I guess. More power, less dependability. Interestingly, Canepa thinks more power is available, although not a lot maybe. Would think that they have plans to try to get it, either with new homologated parts or within the rules as they exist now. (Message edited by ljm on April 14, 2015) | ||
| Henshao |
I'm sure you are right. EBR website only says "Peak Horsepower 185 hp @ 10,600 rpm" in regards to the RX | ||
| Hughlysses |
Canepa posted 127 photos from Aragon to his Facebook page today. There are some NICE shots in there. (Message edited by Hughlysses on April 14, 2015) | ||
| Classax |
The soft limiter on the street bikes kick in at 11,500 rpm and the race bikes can apparently spin to 12.5K(based on statements by Geoff May to Cycle World) where as the Panigale is just hitting peak power at 11.5 and ready to spin to near 13K in stock trim. Who know what its does in race trim. The 4's are spinning closer to 14.5 to 15k to get 230 or so HP, so just based on the math they shouldn't even be able to run anywhere near 107% of the pace.... but miraculously they are. Based on the math they should be down about 50hp and 35-48kmph, but instead they are down 30hp and 20kmph, that's one HECK of an engineering trick. I'm no engineer either but to my mechanical mind, they really have optimized this type of engine to the beyond what one would expect. | ||
| Henshao |
12500 rpm with 67.5mm stroke nets 28.125m/s mean piston speed, Formula 1 territory, and a 12500rpm redline making 205 wheel horsepower brings estimated torque back down to the stock 1190 cycleworld dyno result of 86-87ftlbs. Implying that these machines are breathing about as well as they conceivably can even in stock form and that the race bikes can simply hold their gears a little longer before shifting, also presumably make their peak torque at much higher rpm due to cam profile. As far as their breathing ability in stock form it is not that far of stretch, Buell designs for a long long time have emphasized airbox harmonics and I have no reason to believe they would hold back on the airbox of a stock bike for the sole purpose of a race bike being superior. Even their intake valve pattern supposedly induces a swirl effect in the cylinder head so I doubt there is much porting left to be done once the heads are on the bike. For reference Ducati Panigale 1199 Bore x Stroke is 112 mm × 60.8 mm as compared to EBR 1190 Bore x Stroke 106 x 67.5 mm. So even as oversquare as the 1190 is the Panigale is more extreme and I don't doubt it can spin to 13k in race trim as stated above. In fact if the Ducati's mean piston speed is as high as the EBR's at 28.125m/s it would put redline at 13877rpm with the 60.8mm stroke. Assuming the Panigale carried the 85ft/lbs of torque it achieved in the same test the EBR underwent via cycleworld, to that hypothetical redline of 13877rpm, it would achieve about 224.5hp. In reality the race spec Panigale probably breathes a little better and makes a little more torque than the street model. Again making a gajillion assumptions, I'm no engineer (Message edited by henshao on April 14, 2015) |
