| Author | Message | ||
     Jj5cool1 |
Hello everyone, I'm Jesus and a new Buell owner. I have always wanted a Buell, specifically an 1125R, and that day has come. I love this machine and am now looking at ways to make it even better. A little background info. This is a 2008 with the K&N air filter, Barker exhaust, and a Race Only ECM that I can only assume is from EBR and matched to the Barker exhaust. So on to the topic on hand. I live in Arizona and as some may know it gets hot, very, very hot here. So far, depending on ambient temp, the rolling coolant temps have ranged between 165-185, but when I'm in traffic it can get up to 214+. I know this is some what normal for the bike, but I don't like it, especially since we haven't even gotten into the 90s yet, so I figured it'll get worse. Therefore I want to improve the cooling of the engine. As far as research has gone there isn't any real improvements to the coolant system other than flushing out the cooling system with water wetter, which I did today. But then I noticed we have a little oil cooler mounted down behind the tire with no air scoops or a fan and started thinking. This guy is directly behind the tire, so I would imagine any airflow it receives is turbulent or diverted. Plus when at a standstill or low speeds, there is little to no airflow to cool the oil down (obviously). So if we can cool the oil cooler down more it may help bring down overall engine temps. So why not put a fan on it. Of course it would be better to put a fan behind it, but there's no room. So in the front it goes where it can help defend the oil cooler from road hazards. Found a nice 4" pusher fan from Spal. Thinking I'd wire it with a relay receiving a signal from the coolant fans and powered by the accessory connection (that I believe these bikes have). Only thing I have yet to figure out is some nice mounting design. What do you guys think? Anyone else ever done anything similar? Ideas or suggestions? Any upgrade oil coolers or coolant coolers available. I saw something about someone swapping to the 1190sx/rx radiators. Any info welcomed, thank you. | ||
| Stevel |
The engine cooling and hot air routing is quite poor on this bike. The best change you can make is to remount the existing radiators so they are closer together and face forward. then routing the radiator hot air exhaust outward, like most bikes do. The oil cooler is a non-problem. The heating of the air box is. You do not have much available electric power and you need to limit electric accessories. These changes are not easy and laborious because you must make everything. You can use the RX cooling system, but it will be very expensive. Price the parts and you will understand my point. | ||
| Malott442 |
Maybe insulate the frame and airbox? It's in the mid 80's here, my coolant temp takes 10 minutes in traffic to go above 195. Maybe check your sensor for proper resistance? Maybe you are having water pump issue? What about coolant mix ratio ? Sorry, just spit balling ideas | ||
| Dannybuell |
Welcome! A few years back a friend had just ceramic coated his custom made headers. We went on a 2.5 hour ride to see sprint car racing. I wanted to see how ceramic coating worked. My first grab was at the tail pipe. I worked my way forward grasping about a foot at a time. It started to get warm about 2 feet from the head. Warm, not hot, not burn you, warm. My tube frame Buell has tattooed a nice little scar on the inside my right calf, that is burn you hot. Someone here got tired of the heat boiling the gas in the frame on hot days and ceramic coated their frame! Steve mentioned heat on the motor and the air box over it. There is a guy here from Texas who has a car hood scoop on top of his airbox. He seems very happy with his setup. If you can increase the airflow over the engine by venting the air cover, why not? | ||
| Sprintst |
Are you actually experiencing a PROBLEM? Today's engines run hot. Hot = efficient If you aren't experiencing an actual issue, I would suggest not worrying about things Too often people "fix" a perceived issue that really isn't. Yes, our bikes run hot, yes they dump heat on the rider, like most V's do, but if you aren't experiencing overheating, power being cut, engine shut down, etc.... I'd suggest leaving well enough alone (Message edited by sprintst on March 24, 2015) | ||
| Nillaice |
Make sure you are putting the right type of anti-freeze in the coolant system. The water pump seals are sensitive to that. Water wetter is not sufficient lubricant in this application. | ||
| Nobuell |
As mentioned, the 1125R does run hot like most modern era bikes. The EBR race ECM coupled with the Barker exhaust actually helps quite a bit over the stock setup. My track bike tends to run hotter than the street version as you would expect. I found that slow speed and resting really heat soaks the frame and off-gas of the fuel is very pronounced. I get approximately 10 deg lower temperature when using water with Water Wetter in lieu of Antifreeze. A simple way to make it run cooler would be to reduce the percentage of antifreeze from 50% to say 15% by volume. That will still give you some freeze protection (approx 19 deg F) but will increase the heat transfer capability of the fluid a lot. Simply looking at the Specific Heat of the fluids and not considering viscosity, a 50% solution has a Cp of .85 while the 15% solution has a Cp of .9460. That is an 11% increase of Cp. The addition of the Water Wetter will help the actual heat transfer. The 15% solution will still provide some freeze and corrosion protection. Try it and see if it helps. You can aways go back to 50% solution. It probably would not hurt to flush the system anyway since the bike is 7 years old and the quality of the coolant is unknown. Just keep in mind the level of freeze protection that you will have. | ||
| Nillaice |
I agree with your explanation, but typically On motorcycles, I'd think that they'd not be ridden or stored in deep-freezing conditions. The lubrication of the water pump seals is going to be the limiting factor And the proper type of glycol is important as well as the water/anti-freeze ratio | ||
| Jj5cool1 |
So for starters, good news, bad news. Running 50/50 premixed Water Wetter significantly helped control water temps during morning traffic and during a slow climb behind traffic up a local mountain road. So good that during the morning the temps were 161-162 while rolling at 40-50 mph. Oddly though the fans stayed running (is that normal, I figured they switched off under 170°F). Bad news. When I got to the top of the mountain I noticed water dripping by the oil cooler. The lower hose on the left radiator was leaking. When I tried to unhook it the day before for the flush I must of ovaled the pipe end on the radiator. Anyways took it all apart, got it round again, filled her up, bleed the air, and hopefully she will not leak anymore. But now, Nillaice and Nobuell, you guys have me worried about the water pump seal and whether I should put some coolant in it. Plus, even though we're usually hot over here, during the winter we do see a handful of nights that can dip below 32°F. Sprintst: No problem at all, but you are correct about the design and operations of modern engines and how hot is better (albeit more so for emissions). It just sucks when they are running "efficiently" in between your legs, lol. You are also correct and I agree that I'm trying to fix a non existent problem. But since the bike seems happy running at 170-180 I'd like to help keep the temps as close to that for as long as possible. Malott442 and Dannybuell I have plans to insulate the frame, followed by the airbox tray and intake ducting to help with creature comforts, performance, and the boiling fuel. Just today she must of gotten pretty hot cause it was dripping gas out the vent tube when I parked it (is that even normal for it to leave a puddle?). Also looking into American Sportbikes' ceramic coats header's although I'd rather just have my own coated and save a bit. Stevel: I've read before and now know first hand some of the flawed designs of this bike. For starters the radiators don't seem large enough to transfer the heat created from the engine. The fact that with the fans on the water temp continues to climb up at a standstill shows the ineffectiveness of the cooling system. Then there's the placement of the pods and it's direction of hot air flow. Directly towards the intake tract, which is also over the headers, yay. If the pods were reverse, in a sense, to eject the hot air outwards, as you said, with larger radiators and an additional smaller scoop within the pod was used to direct air toward an insulated intake tract, then I think we could have a happier engine. I also did see the parts list the guy posted for a RX conversion and it was easily over $1000 if not at $2000, so yeah, no gracias. Plus he hasn't posted his complete work so I can't even be sure how easy or hard and effective this would be. (Message edited by Jj5cool1 on March 25, 2015) (Message edited by Jj5cool1 on March 25, 2015) | ||
| Stevel |
I like the responses I have read here, it proves that forums do offer opportunities to learn. I also need to mention that heat is power. The old saying that "Lean is Mean" is very true. The leaner we can run without causing detonation, the more power the engine will make. Unfortunately, the 1125 suffers low speed, high vacuum surging. Surging is erratic ignition. This is caused by very poor flame propagation and is very often compensated for, as opposed to correcting, with fat rich mixtures. Rich mixtures covers many sins and this bike is no exception. My point is that this also effects the heat the engine creates and dealt with by the cooling system. Not only will power be a product of lean mixtures, but efficiency will also improve. These are good things, but it makes cooling much more critical. When the engine is correctly tuned, any temperature rise anywhere in the system can easily place the engine into detonation. As the 1125 is delivered, there is no excess cooling capacity to handle unique conditions like the OP in Arizona will experience. My point being that the band aid of choice is fat, inefficient fuel mixtures. So, cooling the motor, insulating the airbox and monitoring oil temperatures will allow better tunes, greater power and better drivability as well. | ||
| Nuts4mc |
Jesus...living in San Diego...we get the heat as well in the summer months: a) the cooling system only holds 3 qts....I use straight water with Justice Bros. Radiator cooler (5ozs to 3 qts)...only been able to find it on Ebay...seems to come out of a speed shop up by the Bonneville Salt Flats. here's a link on a comparison of cooling system additives: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/070 3-turp-cooling-system-additives/ here's an Ebay link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/271677693527?lpid=82& chn=ps b) don't get bargain brand oil....don't go "light" on the oil...in the heat the light wt oil breaks down quickly ...a good 20-50wt motorcycle oil is you engine's friend. c) great roads in Az...but the weak link on the 1125 is the charging system, get a battery tender and use it when the bike is parked...check the Voltage regulator and battery cable bolts on a regular basis...and if you can afford a new after market VR - buy one! have fun the roads over there... you have some great ones! | ||
| Nobuell |
I think Jj5 has an 08 model. He should not have a problem with the charging issue associated with the 09/10 models. Water Wetter is supposed to have pump seal lubricant as well as corrosion inhibitors. I do not believe that pump seal damage using Water Wetter is an issue. It is the long term effects of corrosion that could be detrimental to the pump seal. Water / Water Wetter is intended for racing applications. In racing applications, the coolant is changed and flushed on a regular basis. When using it in street applications, there is a tendency to keep the fluid in-place without changing like it is antifreeze. Since the Water Wetter does not have corrosion inhibitors to the extend of the correct antifreeze, build up of corrosion products will result from long term use. The same can be said when using low percentages of the proper antifreeze resulting in lower amounts of additives and increasing the possibility of corrosion. The abrasive corrosion products will attack the seals / shaft contact surface. There are chemicals created that will attack various metals within the motor causing more corrosion by products increasing the cycle. I do not believe it is a lubrication issue per se. Unfortunately, a few months ago, one of our clients decided to use antifreeze in the low temperature (-10 deg F) chilled glycol system we supplied. All of the additives promptly started to drop out of suspension and clog the heat exchangers in the system shutting down the chillers. I had many long conversations with Dow and other Ethylene Glycol suppliers. Regarding antifreeze vs Glycol solutions. It can be very complex. I learned more than I needed to know about coolants. The good news was we never reference using antifreeze in our service manual. Only 50% Ethylene Glycol solution. | ||
| Stevel |
NoBuell, Perhaps you are referencing my comment when I stated that the OP should avoid using electrical accessories like fans. I said that because the OP has an '08. These models have limited available electrical power. This is the reason that the '09 and later models went to a larger capacity alternator. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"Texas who has a car hood scoop on top of his airbox. He seems very happy with his setup. " ewwww no | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
oh, and I've seen 220ish in traffic with no issues. Wait until you actually have an issue until you need to try to figure out a fix | ||
| Stevel |
Hybridmomentspass, You have seen 220 in traffic and you don't think that's a problem? Check your cam bearing journals and get back to us here and tell us what you have found. | ||
| Sprintst |
220 F isn't very hot for STEEL The water isn't boiling off until you hit 212 F (Message edited by sprintst on March 27, 2015) | ||
| Stevel |
The problem isn't the steel nor is it the water boiling off at 212F. The water boiling point changes with pressure and as the cooling system is pressurized, the boiling point is quite a bit higher. The problem is the ability of oil to lubricate at temperatures approaching 250F. The oil viscosity starts to fall off very quickly at elevated temperatures depending on the oil being used. The cam bearings are the furthest from the oil pump and receives the least amount of flow and on this motor is the first area to show lube failure. | ||
| Nobuell |
When I started getting in the 210s on the track, I switched out the Propylene Glycol mixture for water and water wetter. That pushed the temperature down a good 20 deg F. I still had heavy fuel of-gassing when the bike is parked in the pits. This occurrence is worse when running will low fuel loads. It is very plainly seen since I have a opaque vent hose running out of the frame going to the catch bottle in the fairing. It will add a 1/2" of fuel into the bottle. Last summer when I pulled the frame to set the valves. I covered every surface I could with the reflective insulation and wrapped the exhaust. That made a huge improvement. Now I rarely exceed 210 and the off-gassing is greatly reduced. | ||
| Levi |
I've had great results from wrapping the headers (DEI Titanium) and coating the inner frame (DEI gold tape.) It gets into the hundreds here too and my bike used to get furiously angry hot. Now it's more of a disgruntled hot. My question is whether or not it'd be effective to use a larger coolant res. to spread the heat out a bit. Mine is ridden every day to work and while I don't abuse it, I do look for it to continue service for as long as possible. I'm using factory coolant/water setup BTW. | ||
| Nobuell |
A coolant tank does not increase or decrease cooling capability. Are you blowing the coolant out of your tank? | ||
| Levi |
I had a couple of days last summer where it did puke a bit of coolant. Certainly a rare event. Most of the real trouble was gasoline completely overwhelming the evap canister and reeking up the whole outdoors. All of this happened last year before I insulated the bike. I'll know fairly soon how it fairs with the improvements in the heat. | ||
| Stirz007 |
Frame lining will help with perceived heat (via frame) and fuel heating, but won't affect coolant temps. That said, frame lining is a good mod and worth the effort. It's not scientific, but I've seen some fairly significant drops in coolant temp just by changing to a different coolant - R1's and R6's, mostly. I'm currently restricted to running water/water wetter in my 1125 and frequently see temps well above 200, but I have no cooling fans so there you have it. It's no bueno sitting on the grid waiting to start and feeling the thumping of liquid-to-vapor conversion. Underway, 180's and 190's are typical. I'd suggest the easy stuff first - make sure the rads are unrestricted (i.e., clean), make sure the system has been purged of air, try a different coolant, or just ride faster. Oh, and do not run straight distilled water - EVER. | ||
| 1_mike |
There's some pretty interesting (read that strange) things in this post ! Most of the bike engines (or car engines for that matter) run hot because of the EPA..."NOT" because of some perceived notion of horsepower...!! It's the "lack" of ignition timing, especially at lower rpm. Fact, look it up, heat vs timing...! I raised my low rpm timing and the engine heat went way down. As long as I turn my fans on before 190F., the coolant almost never goes above about 205, and that's on a 100 degree summer, SoCal day in freeway traffic. Another one, "coolant" or antifreeze does NOT transfer heat. This is not conjecture, it's fact. I use about a 25/75 mix of antifreeze to water (75% water) in all of my bikes AND car engines. Next, I wrap my header tubes in the DEI wrap, two layers. If you'll notice, just how close one header tube comes to the water pump and the right side radiator..! And yes again, to help keep the fuel a bit cooler, insulate as much of the inner frame as you can with the stick-on insulation. It's been a while, forgot what I used..! It's an easy thing to do with the engine rotated for a valve adjustment. I also installed a manual switch to turn on my fans when I want, not when the computer wants. Mike | ||
| Jj5cool1 |
Felt like I should update this now that it's back on top. So far the water wetter has done wonders. IAT vs. CT 70-80 163-175 80-90 172-187 90-100 182-199 100-130+ 187-204 Low number is cruising while high numbers are in stop and go traffic. I'm also close to finishing the bracket for the 4" Spal pusher fan that will mount on the oil cooler. It will be directly behind the tire where I believe the cooler needs the most help with airflow and protection from debris being flung to it. Still not sure how to wire the fan. Either: 1.) All time power from Aux port with ignition on 2.) Manuel switch being powered from Aux port 3.) Relay switch taking signal from the radiator fan ground and powered by Aux port 4.) Splice ground and power from the fan sub harness and powered from the fan circuit. | ||
| Dannybuell |
I like #4, seems easiest in the long run. | ||
| Aj2010 |
There are some quads that have oil temp switches for cooling fans. Ducati 748 had a nice size fan that should just about fit the 1125 oil cooler, that's what I'm using on the project bike. | ||
| Stevel |
Oil temp is very important to control. There needs to be a bypass valve controlled at 90 C. Cold oil is just as much of a problem as hot oil. Adding a fan may be a benefit, but without checking oil temp doesn't make much sense. If a fan is required, it needs to be controlled at 110 C. |
