| Author | Message | ||
     Gonen60 |
Dyna, How do you suppose BMC could accommodate a sudden massive jump in their production? Are you asking How Buell would produce more bikes if they suddenly became busier? Hell, isn't being busy the game plan for business. I always hated having to wait for my food in a restaurant or having slow service. The waiter makes the excuse "Sorry for poor performance, We are very busy tonight" "isn't that the plan TO BE BUSY" | ||
| Blake |
JM, It may not be valid to compare air cooling to liquid cooling by neglecting mass flow rates and temperature differentials. Your analogy is not applicable. Hold the red hot piece of iron in a 100 mph stream of cool dense air and compare that to holding it in front of an atomized mist of water at 200oF. The difference becomes less clear no? Mass flow rate and temperature differential, and yes, heat capacity all affect the transfer of heat via convection. Al, Very well said. The Pro Thunder bikes were air cooled and 130 HP no?  Going from iron sleeves to all aluminum cylinders might make a difference. Plus adding an oil cooler... I also recall some impressive runs at Bonneville made by air cooled engines. I think the most extreme case was one that went 208 mph. That would require over 200 rwhp. I know, longevity is shortened, but that puts one bound on the envelope no, and it's WELL above 130 hp. Just something to think about. Gonen, What was the HP output of the 1994 GSXR600? What is it today? My statement was one of sarcasm. Buell engines have advanced significantly more relative to where they were ten years ago compared to the Japanese IL4 engines, but some people cannot see it that way. Saro, You need to take a more careful look at an XB's cooling system. The front cylinder is not "hanging out in the breeze" as you contend. The XB's cooling system does indeed have a thermostat. I'm not trying to say that liquid cooling is stupid or a bad choice, I'm simply refuting the contention that air cooling is a bad or inferior choice. The integrity of any cooling system depends on the quality of its design. A poorly designed liquid cooling system will have the cylinders deforming and heads overheating just as easily as a poorly designed air-cooled system. You can easily end up with localized hot and cold spots in a liquid cooled system. Liquid cooling is NOT some kind of magic panacea for an engine. A liquid cooling system requires just as much if not more engineering and testing expertise to perfect as does an advanced air cooling system. The new Buell XB's air/oil cooling system represents a huge leap ahead of any prior air cooling system for a motorcycle that I can recall. Ducted, forced, thermostat regulated air cooling. The one really great thing about liquid cooling is that to seriously overheat the liquid must be boiled off, and to do that requires a LOT of heat. Converting 230oF water to 230oF steam takes a LOT of heat energy, so their is a built-in overheat protection of sorts. Just don't ignore that condition for a significant time cause once the water pump goes dry, the engine will die. ![: ]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) edited by blake on March 30, 2004 | ||
| Sarodude |
I now vividly recall an episode of Mojave Brain Bake in which I was wondering why my 2 stroke Honda, with my digital water temp guage FLASHING at 220F+, was running poorly. Head gasket blown, head & jug warped, & I was wondering why... It was embarassing to have to ask what someone thought was wrong with it. Truly a steam cooled motor.  Anyway, Blake, I'll take another looksie at the XB motor in relation to how it's mounted in the bike when I'm over at my dealership of choice. However when I look at the following pic  I see most of the front cylinder exposed with part of the front head. Certainly everything facing forward is exposed. Does Buell's system have the ability to limit the amount of air passing over the front head & cylinder if things are too cold? I don't have an XB, so I may have no clue what I'm talking about, but on a NUMBER of Los Angeles mornings, my TC equipped bike never fully warms up on a 15 minute ride to the office. "Fully Warmed Up" in this case would be the motor idling at regular speed with no choke. -Saro | ||
| Blake |
Consistent steady growth is desirable. A huge jump in production is not. It is very difficult for any manufacturer of complex commercial products to drastically increase production rates let alone introduce an entirely new product while maintaining the product integrity and quality. I'm not saying it cannot be done, just that it is VERY difficult. Firstly, you need more employees, and skilled employees of high caliber don't grow on trees. Secondly you need a bunch more production capacity which means you need a bunch of capital to buy/build said capacity. Plus a whole host of other issues. Dyna, How much does a Ducati 999 list for? How about a BMW R1100S? An Aprilia Tuono? KTM Duke? You want Buell to price a new superbike type model at the same level as the Japan Inc models? NEVER happen. | ||
| Dyna |
Consistent steady growth is desirable. A huge jump in production is not. And Buells owner..HD..has become a master at it. They have doubled their production numbers from 200,000 bikes a year to almost 400,000 in less than 10 years. They can show Buell how to do it. Plus Buell is not landlocked, there is a lot of available area to expand & with the design of their buildings..basically polebarns..they are cheap to build. How much does a Ducati 999 list for? How about a BMW R1100S? An Aprilia Tuono? KTM Duke? You want Buell to price a new superbike type model at the same level as the Japan Inc models? The Duc is what $15,000-16,000? It also is a proven race winner. Get the same pedigree with the Buell & then you can ask that type of $$$. I dont know how much the Tuono is. $12K im guessing. The KTM duke has always been around $8K. No pricing yet announced on the new one. And you can pick up a boxer cup BMW for $10K. I say throw the Revo motor in & price it at the current price for the XB12. Thats right in line with its competition. | ||
| Dyna |
PS...I like air cooled bikes & always have & always will, but they overheat just like H20's do. In Sturgis where it was 105 degrees & there were massive delays, plenty of HD's were overheating & the owners had to shut them down & push them. The motors were on the verge of locking up. Yes I know they werent exactly moving air past the fins very quickly at .2 mph, but the Valkyrie & the Vulcan that were ahead of us just kept chugging along with no issues. | ||
| Al_lighton |
yea, Blake, I knew the LSR bike and pro thunder bikes would be invoked. Thus my comment about the difference between a RACE motor and a street motor. Neither of those bikes would do 30,000 miles in that configuration if asked to put out that type of power continuously. But truth be told, I DID pull the 130HP number right outta my ass. It's never just a question of JUST the power output, it always has to consider the efficiency of the engine (to determine the waste heat in question), the materials themselves (i.e., billet parts conduct better than cast, aluminum liners better than steel, and some materials can operate at higher temps), and the geometries. But for existing sporty geometry/materials, you'd have a hard time convincing me that it could do 30K miles at routine 130HP operating conditions. Blake is absolutely correct in that DUCTED Forced air can do a great job of keeping an engine cool, Lots better than unducted natural convection can. Heck, lots of great aircraft engines have been cowl ducted air cooled. Of course, it helps that they have some serious propellors right in front of them | ||
| Al_lighton |
Dyna, I'd bet if you mounted two fans in front of those big vtwins that were overheating, they would be chugging along just fine too. It's a STYLING issue, not a technical COOLING issue. That Valkyrie and Vulcan had fans blowing across their radiators, count on it. If not, they would have been in WORSE shape than the big twins. Al | ||
| Aesquire |
On a hot summer day, stuck in golf tourney traffic crawling with my bud & his (Puerto Rican)wife on their Honda 750 Sabre, his fan kicked on. Cursing followed, then he spread his legs so the really hot air passed between knees & bike. More Cursing, in higher pitched & rapid fire Spanish followed, with her fists bouncing off his helmet, until he again blocked the furnace like airflow. I laughed so hard I almost didn't mind the waves of heat rising from my ol' air cooled GS1100E. I was surprised, when I found this group, & found what level of HP could reasonably be expected from my M2, that Buell's were tuned so close to their potential. A typical 1980's bike had 10-20 HP just waiting for a Kerker header, K&N's (airbox removal) and a rejet. The Slipon/K&N/Airbox mod/rejet on my M2 netted me just a shade on top SOTP, but smoothed the torque curve nicely. Head work for that 20+ HP is due next winter. Dyno time in April. I'll let you know. | ||
| Dyna |
Worst bike I ever had in regards to heat was a 91 CBR 600, that thingwas a damn toaster. The heat would pour out of the fairing & it would literally bake my right leg..dont know why the left side wasnt as hot. In hot weather it was a miserable ride. | ||
| Brucelee |
Oil Coolers anyone??????????????????? | ||
| Dyna |
If the air isnt passing over or thru the oil cooler fast enough then its nothing more than another storage tank. I think an oil cooler combined with a fan for the cooler would be the way to go. | ||
| Brucelee |
>>If the air isnt passing over or thru the oil cooler fast enough then its nothing more than another storage tank. I think an oil cooler combined with a fan for the cooler would be the way to go.>> BINGO! That is exactly what I was thinking. Fans discreetly placed and NOT LOUD can do wonders for cooling the oil. Other innovations in fin design AND fans can cool the metal. IMHO, this can be a more efficient way to cool an engine than an liquid cooling system. Moreover, it also gets a free ride when the bike is moving. Lastly, there is innovation to be had in oil technology. Castrol makes a 10-60 W for BMW autos. Great stuff. So, do we really need liquid cooling? Lastly, supposed we stay with the stuff we love, like no value adjustments and no cooling liquids and simply make the motor larger (more displ) and add more gears. Say for example, 1600 CC and 6 speeds????? | ||
| Blake |
Dyna, Doubling production over the course of ten years is a result of a mere 7.2% growth rate. Like I said, consistent and steady. I'd like to see Buell do the same but at a slightly more aggressive rate, say 10-12%. At 12% growth annually in ten years they would go from a production of 10,000 to over 30,000 bikes. "In Sturgis where it was 105 degrees & there were massive delays, plenty of HD's were overheating & the owners had to shut them down & push them. The motors were on the verge of locking up. Yes I know they werent exactly moving air past the fins very quickly at .2 mph, but the Valkyrie & the Vulcan that were ahead of us just kept chugging along with no issues." Too bad they didn't have ducted forced air cooling. I ride a lot during the Summer here in Texas where it gets a bit warmer than North Dakota. Never had to shut down my Buell for fear of it overheating. I of course run a good synthetic oil, so I don't worry about it. I even race the thing during the Summer. I think you are telling stories. Not the Duke, the new two cylinder streetbike. And not the R-Beemer, I should have said the K-bike being we are talking about a liquid cooled machine. Listen, Buell is not going to come out with a superbike type model and sell it for $10K. That is foolish. You don't price a product based upon the competition's cheapest comparable model, you price a product based upon what people are willing to pay for it. A Superbike Buell will be worth a hell of a lot more than $10 to a hell of a lot of people. Why compete in the sewer when you can sell on Park Avenue? I'd much rather build 10,000 bikes and make $30M profit than build 20,000 bikes and make the same $30M profit. Capice? | ||
| Blake |
I think the idea of coated piston domes and maybe even coated chambers and valve faces will soon catch on in the world of production air-cooled motorcycle engines. More heat goes into generating power and then out the tailpipe instead of heating up the piston and head and valves. Al, I agree wrt longevity dropping with higher HP and more sever heat, but who runs their bike at WOT on the street long enough to matter as far as heating/cooling is concerned? I did hear a rumor once that the Buell riders in Germany were blitzing the autobahn and frying their pistons. That kind of failure might be one reason for the new more dictatorial rev limiting scheme on the XBs. Hey, if you can pull 130 HP out of your ass, I'd like to borrow your ass before the next race.  | ||
| Martin |
The very first time I ever rode a Buell was at a Cadwell Park track day tyhat the factory organised. Patrick Yates from BigRock (Now Robin Hood)gave me some good advice that stuck with me: 'Don't give it any stick until its properly warm and it'll live'. I liked that level of resposibility and involvement which is partly why I bought a Buell and also why I always seem to have a spanner in my hand between track-day sessions (Not on a Buell, in case that upsets anyone) In the real world, manufacturers cannot assume a level of competence, rather the opposite! That is why there is extra power hidden in every motor ever built, which is extractable, but always at a price. The liquid cooling debate will go away once the v-rod motored bike debuts (As will the value of your 12's---but then that's just what happened to my 9!) I did a track-day yesterday and caught and passed a GSXR1000 on a single-cylinder 660. I was passed by a guy on a VFR400 and lots of CBR600s. I just wish that I could buy some XB12 cohones to replace my 9's | ||
| Cataract2 |
Curious, has anyone here came up with a way to get fans onto the oil cooler? | ||
| Jaredkuper |
Fans on the oil cooler? I'm sure it could be done pretty easily, but I can't imagine that it would even be worth that little amount of trouble. I would think that just driving the bike at any amount of speed would do more than a mounted fan could ever hope to do. | ||
| Court |
>>>lots of great aircraft engines have been cowl ducted air cooled. And a quite successful small German car. The Buell cooling, and the engineering behind it, are more intruiging than might be apparent. Look at things like the measure of temperature differential twinxt the front and rear cylinder. I an not a thermoid, but can appreciate the pursuit of uniform (while within acceptable ranges) temperatures. You Buell was not designed by accident. Court | ||
| Dyna |
I ride a lot during the Summer here in Texas where it gets a bit warmer than North Dakota. Never had to shut down my Buell for fear of it overheating. I of course run a good synthetic oil, so I don't worry about it. I even race the thing during the Summer. I think you are telling stories. Psst, Sturgis is in S.Dakota & I have been in the southwest in Arizona & Vegas in the middle of July. It was 110-115 degrees. But in Sturgis it was 105-107 during the day & cooled off to a comfy 100 at night. Thats no story & no BS, there is a reason they call the area the Badlands besides just the topography. It was a miserable assed humidity drenched heat also. | ||
| José_quiñones |
meanwhile Aprilia is getting to throw a curve ball... 
| ||
| Henrik |
Kevin Cameron mentioned aircraft air cooling in an article a ways back. One of the big advances that were made was to add cowling and configure the engine to promote laminar flow over the cylinder fins - this to increase airflow and thus cooling. The same would apply to motorcycles, but we'd likely not take kindly to the kind of redesign necessary for laminar flow  I could see owning one of those new Aprilias - awesome for track day - and since it'd likely be quite similar to the 250 there'd be loads of aftermarket stuff already available. Henrik | ||
| Jmartz |
Water or air? This might all be academic. hasn't the European Union set a date for the total elimination of air cooled motor on their roads. Perhaps the introduction of a water cooled HD was in anticipation of this possibility. Also the very successful air cooled beetle is no more. Why, a gas guzzler at 22 mpg highway, no power and high emissions that could never meet US stds. Emissions regulations is what will eventually do in air cooling. | ||
| Glitch |
Fans on the oil cooler? kinda like the rear wheel beside the oil tank/swingarm... | ||
| Hootowl |
I've often thought about putting fans on my oil cooler. The location the X1 oil cooler mounts places it decidedly out of the airstream. The only problem is, which direction do I mount the fans? One way it blows on my leg, the other it blows on the battery. Perhaps a small shroud behind the fans to deflect the air upwards? Ideas? | ||
| Smadd |
With all this talk of cooling methods, fans, shrouds, and whatnot... can we have a show of hands to see who has a bike that is actually running too hot? Steve | ||
| M1combat |
LOL . | ||
| Sarodude |
Smadd- Certainly the point that I was trying to make was not whether anyone's bike was running too hot - but if it was running at the right temp range. There clearly is such a thing as too cold. That's why you're supposed to warm up your bike before you ride it hard. I contend that there's also such a thing as too much cooling. -Saro | ||
| Bomber |
wasn'tit the P-51D mustang that gained 30 knots or so from the hot air exiting the radiator? could be that fan placement could be key ;-} | ||
| M1combat |
Well, on most sport bikes there is a low pressure zone under the rear section, not on the Buells . The ducting and fan eliminate or at the least reduce it. |
