| Author | Message | ||
     Ebmachine |
I think Fast1075 may have nailed it on the friction heat associated with the speed of the EBR front rotor based on the diameter. If EBR used carbon ceramic material for the brake pads and a combination of carbon, silicon and a resin for the disc, the combination has the ability to maintain functionality at high temperatures because they do not trap heat like steel rotors with traditional pad compositions. As an added benefit, this rotor is about 50% lighter than steel. This system can disperse the heat before it reaches the brake fluid. Frequent and heavy braking at high speeds over long periods will ensure the brakes run much cooler. The only downside is that this brake system can be very expensive. | ||
| Gaesati |
Keeping the fluid cool a la Jens and venting the disc as Blake suggests seem to be good propositions. | ||
| 46champ |
The only downside is that this brake system can be very expensive The real downside is you have to run steel rotors in world superbike I think  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Has anyone ever built a brake cooling system that uses a small electric pump to circulate the brake fluid through a small radiator when the brakes are not braking? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Has anyone ever built a brake cooling system that uses a small electric pump to circulate the brake fluid through a small radiator when the brakes are not braking? I think the system used on the 1190RR that Jens posted a photo of used something like that. | ||
| Blake |
For equal braking force and duration the heat generated doesn't change. Unless you're talking about regenerative systems (think Prius), then braking just is transforming kinetic energy into heat energy. Thus the amount of heat to dissipate (shed) doesn't change no matter what configuration is used. The challenge is to improve heat dissipation (cooling) and/or tolerance for high temperatures. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Slight update on Aaron Yates: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl= en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww. speedweek.com%2Fsbk%2Fnews%2F66206%2FAaron-Yates-% 28Buell%29-erlitt-Oberschenkelhalsbruch.html&edit- text= According to this article, he does not have a contract (yet) to ride for EBR next year. The article does seem to confirm that Larry Pegram will run the WSBK effort next year. | ||
| Ceejay |
by venting the disc it would increase the thickness, creating the added benefit of getting it further outboard of the rim/tire thus allowing for more airflow. I don't know if having a slightly more outboard disc will affect the feel when braking - more than likely I wouldn't notice but these guys certainly may. I would venture to guess that a vented disc would help drastically more than using the fluid as a heat sink... | ||
| Neutrum |
mhhh, are they already testing the bike for next season? are they testing it on the tracks they will be racing next season? no? ducati, kawasaki and suzuki and honda are testing in jerez, aragon etc... next week. test-ban is shorter this year. plenty of opportunities to test this time. and they still don't name a team or crewchief for next year. aaron yates is out with this injury. did they name another rider? someone who knows the tracks and maybe is a little younger than 30? i think here in cev or civ in italy you would find loads of young riders who would love to ride for a factory-team in wsbk. and they know the tracks. so, the rider question wouldn't be the problem. but they should have done it by now. same mistake as last year: they do not test (in jerez) when they could. they are not ready, they are not up to the task. again. and you guys are still talking about a brake system that was proven insufficient a whole season long. the others don't sleep and their bikes and riders won't be slower than this year. some of you suggest exactly that would be the case according to rules-change (downsizing the machines to last years evo-specs, which is not happening at all). actually, i can't see an ebr-team for next season, maybe this dean adams guy is right after all with his predicition. who would be crewchief? larry pegram? would he be qualified for the task? like the last season, when they could test and they didn't (at two occasions). then you hear things like: they were not used to the smooth tracks in europe (suspension). this (the next) season, there won't be excuses like "they didn't know the tracks" or "paramount is collecting data" or the "unknown braking system" or "not used to pirelli tires" or.... if they going to race next season, they should know by now, because dorna will confirm the definitive race dates by next week and the rulesbook is set since august. so, ebr hurry up and let us know... (Message edited by Neutrum on November 15, 2014) | ||
| Blake |
>>> you guys are still talking about a brake system that was proven insufficient a whole season long. Please show the data comprising your claimed proof. The timid and shortsighted fear challenge and innovation. The courageous and ingenious find solutions. Never give up. It's clear that EBR want to develop a great street bike that is also capable of success in racing versus a racing machine that can be ridden on the street. For racing WSBK, it would be easy to give up the significant reduction in mass made possible by the EBR perimeter front brake/wheel system in favor of conventional racing brakes by Brembo. The smooth tarmac of WSBK venues diminishes, maybe eliminates entirely, the advantage typically afforded by reduced unsprung mass on less ideal racing surfaces, so that's not a bad idea if the perimeter system is hopelessly struggling/deficient compared to the competition, and all that you care about is racing WSBK. Neither of those two conditions appear obvious to me. I've not seen the data though.  | ||
| Neutrum |
"Please show the data comprising your claimed proof. "  proof enough? no, seriously: i've seen that with my own eyes at the aragon session: they must brake earlier than anybody else in the field (way before the speedtraps). this is obsolete anyway, ebr should have been up and running by now with a new team. they haven't even named one. next week, all the other teams starting to test. | ||
| Hughlysses |
It is worrying that NOTHING official has been said about next season yet. The story about Larry Pegram running the team came from the German press; I haven't seen any mention of it in the US. I posted questions about their plans to both Geoff's and Team Hero/EBR's pages on Facebook. Maybe at least one of them will respond. | ||
| Blake |
>>> proof enough? Not for careful reasoned thinking, not even close. | ||
| Neutrum |
sorry, found no elves to proof it... | ||
| Classax |
It would be unfortunate if they are not testing this week but the reality is its unlikely. They have: Only one rider healthy, No crew No crew chief No team headquarters I hope they make it back but for some reason everything is a slow secret in the EBR world. They either will or they won't. I am one of those who thought the bikes would be slower next year due to the rules, but all the major players will simply homologate more powerful bikes. In terms of engines you will be able to buy something much more similar to what is being raced but the bikes on track will all be 230hp plus. In race guise the EBR is putting out 210-215. Its going to be hard to compete, unless they have a top spec rider. But since they fired the Italian team they don't have a crew or facilities in Europe at the moment so all of that is mute. Its really all up to HERO now if they want return. Looks pretty bleak but then its looked much bleaker before. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well, Geoff responded to my question about 10 minutes ago: Me: "Geoff- any word about Team Hero/EBR for next season?" Geoff: "Not sure. It's all up in the air right now."  | ||
| Classax |
That answer doesn't surprise me at all. They did the right thing riding out the year with the first team. They aren't going to be making a ton more power, while competition will be making the same or more. TI con-rods for the engine would help, but not 30hp worth. For the reasons I mentioned above if I were HERO it would be a tough call. The bike is underpowered against is rivals, the both riders did amazing, but wouldn't ever likely be in the top 5 regardless what machine they were on. They need to organize a team, logistics, ect.... its like ground zero all over again. Yea they have all the logo items from last year but, its really like starting from scratch. I doubt the decision will be made before the holidays. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I guess this isn't surprising, but it's not like they didn't know the end of this season was coming immediately followed by the first testing session for next season. If they don't have revised bikes ready to test, even if they DO decide to compete next season they can't expect much better results. | ||
| Classax |
The dust has to settle to see who is even available to support a team. Are there any top riders who could be tricked into developing an underpowered bike? Is Hero willing to pay to trot it around the world for NO or even a few points again? Where is EBR on the SALES front? I personally know at least 5 guys who want to campaign the RX in CMRA, WERA and MotoAmerica who still have no word on when they will get race parts. The last test days for the southern tracks are approaching and first races are in Feb. A lot to get done, plan and finance before pulling the trigger. The longer it goes without a decision the less likely it will happen. From a marketing perspective they almost HAVE to return even if they remain at the rear, just to prove they could get better results than the Italians and that much of the embarrassment was user error and not their bread and butter machine. But what do I know.... | ||
| Court |
They wiiiiillllll be back | ||
| Sprintst |
I had my concerns about adding about 40 hp (stock bikes) from the 1125 and expecting a marginal braking system to handle even more. Now, for me, I'm a big boy and street use in the mountains the perimeter brake does the job, so I'm fine with it for a street bike (at least at the 1125R power level) | ||
| Blake |
When you think about how kinetic energy increases with speed squared and so too the amount of heat generated during braking, it becomes almost frightening to consider using a street bike brake on a 200 MPH Superbike racing machine. I think it's as cool as rock & roll that EBR is not giving up and continuing to develop their own innovative braking system. | ||
| Classax |
What you all, (only many actually) keep forgetting is that EBR's perimeter ZTL is the only production brake set up on the entire grid in any class. Every other machine upgrades to race spec $25k a side Brembos. Yes EBR needs to develop the optimal pad material, but the brakes are fine. Horses at least 30 more of them is what they need to compete. That and a level alien rider instead of the national level stars they have now. | ||
| Neutrum |
 where exactly can you see a production brake setup? i'm sure you can't buy this one from ebr for 350 bucks, can you? the others use: brembo t-drive discs: us$ 600.- brembo calipers xa3: us$ 8000.- brembo cnc brake pump: us$ 2500.- (that's the best you can buy for money and far away from the number you mentioned) anyway, they should be testing it right now in spain. http://www.omniaracing.net/en/brembo-racing-xa3j7f0-108mm-radial-monoblock-billet-brake-caliper-for-30mm-6mm-disc-p-19407.html http://www.omniaracing.net/en/pair-brembo-drive-brake-disc-310-honda-1000-cb1000r-20082011-p-3850.html http://www.omniaracing.net/en/brembo-racing-cnc-radial-master-cylinder-brake-pump-19x18-cnc-p-9954.html (Message edited by Neutrum on November 18, 2014) | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
It looks like there is a caliper on the opposite side in that pic....strange. | ||
| Blake |
Fork suspension gas reservoir. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Dern, is that disc blued or WHAT? | ||
| Classax |
Every other machine upgrades to race spec $25k a side Brembos. Should have read 25k a SET not side... my apologies. But still you get the point. As for the photo its the same caliper different forks. and Yes I agree they SHOULD have been testing in Spain, but alas they did not. | ||
| Neutrum |
it's not the same caliper you can buy for a few bucks from ebr. these are unique prototypes by nissin. and they cost way more than a set of brembo billet racing calipers. and it's 15k a set with the others not 25k. at the end of the day, it doesn't matter anyway. they wanted to showcase a bike for selling. they lost that chance by loosing and not making one point with the ebr/hero team, which is remarkable. nobody wants to buy this bike, because it has shown in wsbk that it is, and all of his components, insufficient in functionality and lacking power compared to the others. no matter how much more these "prototypes" (as many of you said), cost. this is the perception of ebr at the end of this season spectators and fans of wsbk have. nobody even thinks of buying this bike. because it cost the same as a winner bike here in europe. hero/ebr should have made banner-ads at the tracks, this would have generated a lot more positive attention to a lower price. sometimes i think, nobody but erik buell cares about how this bike is performing on this level. it doesn't matter, it's a streetbike. and we here can talk and talk, it's not changing the facts. you can't compete with this bike. and if you wanna sell it, generate some positive attention. not smoke and zero points. for the sake of the future of ebr. amen.  (Message edited by Neutrum on November 19, 2014) | ||
| Gaesati |
All very relevant points except that Aprilia is world champion but doesn't sell big numbers of its hi spec bike despite it's world championships. Meanwhile BMW That didn't get close to the championship in the five years it tried now has 22 percent of its market sector worldwide. Go figure. |
