| Author | Message | ||
     Classax |
dream on... the few add 'ons adds a lot more to this bike...no way you could buy this bike for under 50k or even more. Eirk Buell himself has listed the cost of the WSBK bikes at being under $60K so when you consider that they have added on close to 15K in suspension, and another $9K or so in data acquisition and ECU, 8K quick shifter, exhaust and aux fuel tank. That doesn't leave much in terms of chassis and engine. Take a look at the machine and you will see there isn't a whole lot externally different than the street machines and the team has repeatedly confirmed they have only just now begun to use race heads, still stock internals everywhere else. So its not dreaming its simple math. Perhaps we should learn how to use the word compete properly. Anyone good enough to be on the grid when the lights go out is competing. The question is competing for what? If you're saying competing for first place, based on the times, no they would be mid packers at best in SS1K, but that's kind of the point. They took a basically floor stock machine, prepped it for WSBK and made the grid. EVO vs SS1K which is basically supposed to be only suspension differences, has a delta of 7 SECONDS A LAP and almost 30Kmph high trap speeds. Man the "hand picked factory" parts must really be balanced well for that kind of improvement. Look at the times for BSB abd SS1K in the UK tracks, best BSB times are mid pack of SS1K but they're the same SPEC? Right.... If you think that with exceptions of the EBR and Bimotas, that any bike on the grid in WSBK is close to something you can buy at the local bike mart I have a bridge I want to sell you. come on, you'll find an excuse for everything. " Reality is harsh at times and the reality is, the bike good as it is, may be out of its league for WSBK racing,"Doesn't sound like an excuse to me. There's a whole lot more to selling superbikes than race on Sunday sell on Monday. People buying this class of motorcycle know that. It’s a good superbike, is it the best? Depends on your skill level and what you are using it for. Buy and ride what works best for you. If you like twins with classic twin power delivery you have the KTM and EBR to choose from. In the right hands they are both capable of winning any track day, or club race. Once you start getting to the point where your add ons cost more than the whole motorcycle, not so much. That’s no excuse. So if you're buying a street bike for track days or club racing you'll be fine for either. If you're buying a WSBK to go WSBK racing, you could make the grid with an EBR but to compete for a win you'll need way deeper pockets. The three brake calipers alone on the Sykes' Kawi cost more than the whole 1190RX. The engine alone on the RSV4 cost more than half of the EBR machine. That's no excuse, you get what you pay for. Speed cost money! So again if you're going WSBK racing and have $200K+ to spend, RSV4 all day. If you're a club racer and or track day guy with 18K the EBR is a fine choice. How's that for no excuses. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
question - what is the rule for making the grid in WSBK? I mean, does anyone get turned away? Are there SO many entrants that they have to limit the field to 24? | ||
| Neutrum |
http://www.crash.net/wsbk/news/200525/1/fim-confir ms-reduced-homologation-regulations.html | ||
| Trojan |
best BSB times are mid pack of SS1K but they're the same SPEC? Right.... Wrong...BSB runs under very different rules than WSB, so a BSB bike is basically a Superstocki bike with posh suspension and a spec ECU. Compare the times between BSB spec Superbikes and BSB spec superstock bikes rather than comparing different championships. WSB Superstock is VERY strictly controlled, and cheats do get barred. It seems that some don't believe that the bikes have stock internals and very limited tuning, but they really are. if they are faster than the EBR WSB bikes that is just a sad reality, not a result of any nefarious goings on  | ||
| Dennis_c |
If they are so stock how come some of the bikes are $450,000 ea and the EBR is $60,000 | ||
| Classax |
Wrong...BSB runs under very different rules than WSB, so a BSB bike is basically a Superstocki bike with posh suspension and a spec ECU SS1K is supposedly showroom with minimal race preparation. BSB and EVO are nearly identical in spec. EVO deletes the spec ECU deal, but other than that, unlike the AMA Superbike class its close enough. SSK1, BSB, and EVO all claim similar engine and chassis mod prohibitions and allow for cost controlled add ons. Of course tires, riders and trackday conditions all play a factor but in orders of magnitude they are comparable. Great to have you around Trojan! | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
I'll ask again in a different way - How does one make the grid for a WSBK race? SHow up on a legal machine, pay your money (with a race license, obviously), and go race? | ||
| Reepicheep |
The bike has to be homolgated, so it probably depends on what bike you show up on and if somebody else has homologated it already or not. And you have to qualify within a certain percentage of pole to be be able to race. I'm sure there is more... | ||
| Classax |
Unless you are wild carding (two round max) you have to commit to the entire race all the rounds in the series as well. Hybridmomentspass, if you're thinking about putting a team together I know an an umbrella guy who will work for room and board! | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
No, Im not thinking about putting a team together, was just curious if there were people going home each weekend because they were too slow etc Reep - if you'll notice I put "legal machine," so yes, I understand it has to be homologated | ||
| Gaesati |
It is reported that Aaron Yates says the fundamental problem with the EBR brake is that they fail to operate effectively under race conditions. Tests by racers in oz with production EBR's suggest that there are quality control issues with some of the discs and/or that under race conditions there is rim or disc distortion which knocks the pads back into the calipers. Classax, has your EBR suffered from pulsing of the front brake? Press bikes in Oz are being criticised for this characteristic. It seems that the floating disc may not be evenly floating on its rivets. The performance by an EBR in Oz racing was at a BEARS(British, European, American Racing) meet and was not a Super bike meet. | ||
| Classax |
Brakes work by turning motion into heat via friction. The ZTL2 get very hot. Since they are mounted backwards they receive almost no airflow. That said from what I understand at race pace they eat pad material really fast! I found this to be true with the stock pad material on trackdays, but the brakes WORK fine, no fade. I have found that they provide a tremendous amount of feel through the lever. When brand new, yes there was a little pulsing but it went away once the pads were bedded in properly and hasn't returned. Its well known that some of the early rotors were replaced due to issues with machining. I currently use EBC HH EPFA pads and I like them much better over the OEM pads. Better bite and they last more than two or three trackdays. To be honest the EBR goes through chains, brake pads, and sprockets almost as quickly as tires. All of which I have had to replace in less than 7K miles about half of which was spent on the track. But then again it does come stock with 520 chain and Al sprockets, so with no less than between 70-89ftlbs from 3.5K to redline what can one expect? You're talking busa/zx14 type torque levels all the time and they use 530 chain as a minimum. | ||
| Rsh |
Please give it a rest. Your track experience and your bikes performance have nothing to do with what is happening at WSBK level. Everyone knows you have a RX, of course you want to talk it up, it is just so tiresome. Typically when a person, company or organization go out of there way to tout how great they are or something is, it's usually completely the opposite. I have a XB9R and a 1125R, I really like Eriks vision and I am tempted to pick up an RX with the current discount. To me there is a lot of familiarity as well as the obvious differences among the three models. Listening to you drone on and on about how great the RX is makes me want to pass and pick up an RSV4 instead. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Rsh- Classax was specifically asked what he thought. As far as I can see, he just answered Gaesati's question and gave a little additional info about his experience with the RX. I don't see any droning on and on. | ||
| Gaesati |
I specifically asked Classax about his experience with brakes so that I could relate it to the Oz testers' experience and also in relation to Yates comments about brake failure. I think his comments are informative even though he really likes the bike. In this instance his comments about the chain, sprockets and pad materials and machining problems with discs sound realistic rather than bombastic. To defend the EBR, one of the criticisms of 4 valve Ducatis was that it was a race bike disguised as a street bike. The same refusal to compromise seems built into the DNA of the EBR. AS the old saying has it " performance costs money, how much performance do you want?" | ||
| Gaesati |
Ps. Classax, I greatly appreciated your response . | ||
| Rsh |
Its not the answer to Gaesati's brake question. Its all through this WSBK thread, compairing one's personal bike performance and track day experiences to WBSK. The RX may be a descent street bike or fun at a track day, so is the 1125R I own, but I don't make comparisons to the 1125R that Eslick had won the Daytona Sport Bike Championship with, there is no correlation. | ||
| Classax |
Its not the answer to Gaesati's brake question. Based on interviews from May and Yates in Cycle Worlds on the recordhttp://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/21/on-the-record -geoff-may/, the issue with the brakes was pad material. "World Superbike races are longer than AMA races, and there are many circuits that have longer braking zones than, say, Road America, so we’ve had some issues running out of front pad material. It’s something that needs more development, especially at this level. With the higher speeds and longer straightaways of the European circuits, for sure, it’s an issue, especially in the last half of the race. To make this brake system work at its true potential, the way Erik designed it, we need somebody working directly with us testing new compounds and pad materials. Using a conventional system would be the easy route; you would eliminate a variable. If we could run a carbon rotor, like on a MotoGP bike, it might be the best thing on the planet. It’s one of those strategic things you have to look at when you go racing." I have found that even at my ultra slow novice trackday pace the the pads wear out really quickly. Several other owners complained about pulsation and it turned out to be a QC problem with the rotors. That said the feel at the lever is VERY high, much more so than I have experience on the stock 1199 R, RSV4 Factory or R1. I have ridden a race prepped 1199 with upgraded brembos and the feel of those things is like you are squeezing the rotor itself with your fingers. The ZTL2 weren't that good but similar in feel. I think a lot of people who claimed to feel pulsation, were actually experiencing the higher level of feel and had not yet properly bedded in the brakes. As the slight sensation I had in the first 50 miles was gone afterwards. Its all through this WSBK thread, compairing one's personal bike performance and track day experiences to WBSK. That's true for a couple of reasons: *There are those who feel what happens in WSBK has an impact on street sales, so the the bikes get compared for that reason. *The EVO class is supposed to be similar to super stock/ floor stock, but with upgraded suspension, brakes and ECU's so there are comparison for that *Up until round 7, the rotors, calipers wheels, and various other bits were THE EXACT same as the units shipped on the EBR street bikes.( Bimota is the only other OEM that can claim that) so there was the comparison for that. * The WSBKs were clearly having ECU/Engine build problems since world class racers on closed course were having trouble trapping at speeds as high as over sized novices on street tires, so there was the comparison for that. The inference being something had to be very wrong which turned out to be the case. The RX may be a descent street bike or fun at a track day, so is the 1125R I own, but I don't make comparisons to the 1125R that Eslick had won the Daytona Sport Bike Championship with, there is no correlation. Feel free to do or not do as you please, and I'll do the same, no harm no foul. Please be aware that I am only making comparisons as a reference point from the technology and materials standpoint and in no way implying we are at the level of talent the WSBK riders and teams are. Yes I do love the RX from a technical and performance standpoint, but as I have stated, I think if I were going to do WSBK and wanted to have a shot to WIN, I would hire an experienced (alien) rider and put them on a different machine. The classic high torque Vtwin simply may have reached its peak and isn't up to the digitally governed i4s in this series. Still fun as all get out on the street and local track though! Gaesati, you're welcome, anytime. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Not to agree or disagree with anyone in this topic but I totally understand where Rsh is coming from, having been in a similar place here years ago. It's not so much about criticism. It's about the reality and how to determine what matters to street motorcycles and racing motorcycles without the need to embellish either for the love of company or man. The bikes will speak for themselves in the end. I doubt streetbikes will have any issues doing so to those who understand them. The motorcycling public at large might need more convincing than those of us in the know, and some will never be convinced. As for the race bikes, that might be a different story, but it is one that's only just started. Let's hope EBR surprise us all and get to the top step. That's what I'm hoping for. One thing's for sure. I believe Erik believes in his product, and always has done. His commitment to go forward, and to drive his team into doing so, has never been in doubt. It's the companies behind Erik that offer the long term key to survival and success on a scale Erik has always longed for. Let's hope Hero are the company to give EBR what Buell has strove for since the first bike rolled of Erik's bench. Whatever it takes to get the job done. Speaking of which. Where is the Hastur? It's a mistake not to have it in production right now. Rocket in England | ||
| Rsh |
ZTL braking performance has been a topic here since its introduction. In some "discussions" if someone was not fond of ZTL, they would be frowned upon by the Buell brethren and some post from a anonymous admin would pop up and say Jeremy McWilliams thinks its great and use that to dismiss someone's opinion. I believe Trojan "Matt" has seen the controversy over this...he installed a complete R1 front end on a Buell race bike he ran and thought it to be a great improvement. ZTL or whatever the new name is (doesn't Harley own the name)has been around since 2002, you would think the braking issues with this system would have been cured by now. I have purchased a number of brake pads and rotors over my 110,000 miles on ZTL braked Buells, the latest upgrades work better than as delivered when new if that means anything. Is it the best brake system? I don't ride anywhere in my wildest dreams at a 10/10th's WSBK level and pretty sure no one on this board does either. May be there are real problems with the system at a level mere mortals will never see. | ||
| Gaesati |
Re: my earlier post, Aaron Yates commented that after a few laps he was using 20 bar pressure to get some stopping power. He says he now has forearms like Popeye's | ||
| Classax |
Its a different feel for sure. Stock pads have little initial bite but lots of feel with very progressive power. The harder you squeeze the more stopping power you get. Unlike the new Brembos that bite hard from the first hint of a touch. I have to admit the latter provides way more confidence to dive in hard at the end of a straight. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Is it the best brake system? I don't ride anywhere in my wildest dreams at a 10/10th's WSBK level and pretty sure no one on this board does either. May be there are real problems with the system at a level mere mortals will never see. I think even Erik would concede it's not the best braking system. What it may be though, if it can be made to hold up under WSBK racing conditions, is part of an optimum front wheel arrangement, providing the best compromise between effective braking and minimum unsprung weight. I saw or read an interview with Erik in the last few months where he admitted the jury was very much out on the ZTL brake for WSBK. He noted that they've found that WSBK tracks are noticeably smoother than American circuits, so that minimizing unsprung weight is less of an advantage. On the other hand, at someplace like the Isle of Man, reducing unsprung weight on the front wheel is a huge benefit. Like Erik said, it would be simple enough to change to the same front brake setup everyone else is running, and he seemed to acknowledge it may eventually come to that, but he wants to really see if the ZTL can be made to work at that level before he gives up on it. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Sounds like someone is having a case of bike-envy. Maybe YOU should give it a rest. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Interesting. I have the EBR rotor and the EBR hardware on my stock 1125R wheel. No pulsations whatsoever. I would have to describe the feeling as perfect thru my Accossato radial master cylinder (once the brakes were bedded on the new rotor.) I was hesitent after I learned the new hardware takes most of the "float" away in a trade for heat dissipation via the front wheel. Its definitely nearly a rigid mounted rotor, meaning any imperfections on the wheel are more likely to show up at the brake lever. Anyhow, shame on EBR for sending a bike in less than perfect condition to ANY press release, especially with something as easily detected as pulsing at the lever. | ||
| Classax |
the new hardware takes most of the "float" away in a trade for heat dissipation via the front wheel. Its definitely nearly a rigid mounted rotor, meaning any imperfections on the wheel are more likely to show up at the brake lever. That's exactly what I'm trying to express. THANK YOU Fresnobuell!! I think some people are confusing the early feed back from un beddded pads as pulsation as opposed to the juddering from the bad batch of rotors. There is a HUGE difference between the two feelings. One was like a slight quiver in the lever and went away with proper bedding of the pads, and the other is like something is alive in the lever trying to get out, and it gets worse the harder you squeeze. I think the vast majority are experiencing the former. It like the first time you drove a car with race grade calipers and slotted rotors, until the pads are properly bedded you can feel the slots wiping the pads at the pedal. It's gone after a 50 or 100 miles or so. Certainly not the progressively worse juddering feeling you get when a rotor is warped. | ||
| Gaesati |
I think that ZTL has the POTENTIAL to be the best system. But like alternatives to telescopic forks they need development time and money in the heat of competition. The easy way is to focus on compeitiveness of the whole package and junk that component and prove that frame design and engine design and placement is competitive ac Matt did with his xb racer. However EBR seems to believe that developing the whole package is the way to go. More power to them. | ||
| Classax |
I think the chassis is fine and geometry may well prove to be wonderful in WSBK, the ZTL@ and low unsprung weight work as a package in delivering the unique Buell ride quality but aren't as much a factor in WSBK. With development and better materials and a caliper that doesn't flex as much it could be a winner a long way down the road. The biggest problem is POWER, 210-220HP just isn't going to cut it in WSBK now that electronics allow everyone to get the power down. The math just doesn't support a long stroke Vtwin reliably revving high enough to be making the power to compete with the short stroke V's, I and V4's. Hopefully I am proven wrong. A V4 in the EBR chassis would be insane! | ||
| Neutrum |
"I think the chassis is fine and geometry may well prove to be wonderful in WSBK" how do you always come to conclusions like these? this is based on what? a former aprilia race-director (jan wittenveen) does observe and comment on the wsbk, he said that they obviously can't produce enough sidegrip on the rear tire with this geometry and the way, the suspension is working with the swingarm. reading your comments of what is good and obviously not so good, you should be the next race-director of the ebr-factory-team next year. oh, i forgot to mention that speedweek says, that it is not sure that ebr will continue the next season in wsbk. and if, not with the italian team. not one point from the regular team so far. http://www.speedweek.com/sbk/news/63449/Buell-und- die-Superbike-WM-Macht-EBR-2015-weiter.html and now it's clear, that ducati will race the panigale next year with 1299ccm. what's there to gain for ebr? nothing! (Message edited by Neutrum on September 18, 2014) | ||
| Hughlysses |
and now it's clear, that ducati will race the panigale next year with 1299ccm. Is there another rules change pending? I thought the displacement limit for twins was 1200cc? |
