| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
Chris Fillmore ran very close to the same times last year as he is this year? Exactly, the KTM isn't any quicker but the competition in AMA is less than last year (again). Since this is the AMA thread, and we are talking about AMA riders, on AMA Spec machines, on AMA tracks we aren't actually concerned at the moment with anywhere else, particularly WSbk or BSB. You miss the point, which is that the KTM is not competitive anywhere else because the competition is stronger elsewhere. Nothing to do with the machine spec, just the lack of depth in competition in AMA racing at the moment. | ||
| Classax |
No I got the point, and made a different point. In race trim the RC8R is a devastating machine. I didn't say world class, or even superior. Its a bike an average rider can really go quick on. An advanced rider may find great success on. A few pros really enjoy them. Up until this year, they were the best option for classic v2 power delivery in a race machine. With the way i4 electronics have progresses it will be difficult for any elite rider or the aliens at the pinnacle of our sport to find anything more than spotty success on a V2 with classic power delivery. The 1199 can compete but it may as well be an i4 in the way it feels. Every rider has a personal best lap around any track that is limited not by the machinery but by the riders own sense of speed, survival reactions, techniques and sense of risk aversion. Filmore is going to run slightly behind the top 4 guys in AMA today no matter what machine you put him on, (though the v2 suits his style in my opinion. The best bike on the grid for any specific rider, is the one that allows said rider to reach their personal limits with confidence well before the machine reaches its dynamic or mechanical limits) Pegram proved this on the R1 last year and will again on the EBR once he gets it sorted. He'll be back to running his same old lap times again. Comparing the machines and riders to those out side the series is pure speculation. Comparing not just the finishing order and lap times but also the mid race dicing between riders is a far better and more accurate way of observation. Sadly in the AMA there dwindling numbers of machines, rides and races to observe. | ||
| Trojan |
Sadly in the AMA there dwindling numbers of machines, rides and races to observe. Hence the KTM looks better than it really is  | ||
| Jens |
So simple and so true. We took Harald Kitsch from KTM, were he won in 2009 the Sound of Thunder on the RC 8. Afterwards we took in 2010 and 2011 the Championships on the EBR 1190. So we had at least a rider who can compare and as he could also talk we know a bit... In 2011 we start to get under pressure from the Ducati and BMW after the Teams had understand more and more about their electronics. Without electronic gadgets it would be still a Buells world. Unfortunately the other progressed and EBR development is stagnating on the 1190. Its a disgrace to loose against an RC8R, what is used worldwide as a doorstopper at any KTM dealership. Not that KTM could not build a bike what would kick many a##. They just have other priorities. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Yes KTM is capable of great machinery. They are doing quite well against the mighty Honda in Moto 3. It certainly helps that young Mr. Miller is quite the up and coming rider. (Message edited by fast1075 on July 24, 2014) | ||
| Classax |
That's part of what I like about the 1190RX it's designed to work without all the electronic wizardry. In aviation the advent of electronic flight stabilization lead to the design of incredibly maneuverable fighter that haven proven extremely expensive to operate and maintain. For all their capability air forces around the globe are finding all but their most elite pilots are just as good or better in more traditional dynamically stable platforms. I think the same will prove true for supersport pilots. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
I totally agree Tim(Classax), and would like to add; I believe Erik and his "pilots" racing still want to do some winning in WSB and if they are to be competitive will need all those additional electronics as well as better engine components as in rods, cams, forged cranks , etc. which I believe can be added and allowed in WSB if available to the public for the 1190RX's. Also, with Hero holding 49% of the pocket book they and EBR want to sell a lot of bikes also and right now it seems a great many people who are not "the most elite pilots"/riders want a new basically stock 1190RX or 1190SX for their daily or recreational riding. Many good reports so far from those who already own one or have test ridden one. And this is very true: "I think the same will prove true for supersport pilots." (Message edited by Bob_thompson on July 24, 2014) | ||
| Trojan |
For all their capability air forces around the globe are finding all but their most elite pilots are just as good or better in more traditional dynamically stable platforms. I think the same will prove true for supersport pilots. I think it may be true of touring or commuter riders, but not sports riders. Most top level sport bike riders want all the latest bells and whistles, including the best electronics. I|f EBR want to build a sport bike to compete with Ducati, BMW and the Japanes then they will have to follow suit. KTM decided not to go down that route with the RC8R and depite it being a great street bike it is now as Jens says, it is a door stop at most KTM dealers. We will continue to see more electronics derived from race bikes in future, not less. | ||
| Classax |
I didn't say they wouldn't WANT more electronics, I said that nearly all but the very elite can or actually do take advantage of what a machine that REQUIRES the electronics to safely operate brings to the the table. Most guys are going to be as quick on traditional platforms. Case in point, while electronic suspension is becoming the rage, many club and above racers find they prefer less complicated systems because they can be more finely dialed in with custom components. While the average rider may take advantage of the "set it and forget it" wizardry they will find the systems incredibly complicated to upgrade and or repair. Not to mention that the art of how to set up a bike is slowly being lost. Do people want ABS,TCS, AWC, WiFi and Hotspots on their supersports? Sure, but to a large degree while they make powerful machines more accessible to the masses, only the elites can really access the power the masses crave and most of them hone and or honed that capability on more traditional machines. I find the RX a simple bike to work on, particularly from an electronics standpoint. While finicky about setup, its easy to understand and dial in. Try trouble shooting and Panigale and you will know exactly what I mean. | ||
| Trojan |
Most guys are going to be as quick on traditional platforms. They are not. It has been proved time and again in the press over here that riders (eventhose sceptical of electronics) are invariably faster using modern rider aids such as advanced electronics, ride modes, ABS etc. The only thing holding back electronics on road bikes is this dated notion that 'we never needed those in my day!' Most modern top end sports bikes would be down right dangerous on the road without electronics in the hands of the average rider. Like it or not they are here to stay. Like fighter jets, the more we rely on the electronics the faster we will go, the more unrideable they will become without the aids switched on, and less likely we will be to go back to the 'old days' of pre-electronic sports bikes. Why do you think BMW plough so much into electronics these days. | ||
| Classax |
Like fighter jets, the more we rely on the electronics the faster we will go, the more unrideable they will become without the aids switched on, and less likely we will be to go back to the 'old days' of pre-electronic sports bikes. With jets its not necessarily faster but more maneuverable. With bikes I'm not arguing against electronics, they are even more at home on street bikes. I'm saying there is something to be said for living without them. In terms of simplicity and development of rider skill. Similar to the guy who puys a liter bike as his first track bike. He will learn but he would be quicker on something with less power until he develops the skills to handle it. In the world of aerobatics the best pilots fly without AFS in traditional dynamically stable to neutral machines. Dynamically unstable aircraft have higher rates of roll, pitch or yaw depending on the axis the of design instability. What Marines, Navy and Airforce found in three separate studies was that all but their most elite pilots never operated the aircraft outside the traditional flight envelopes and when they did, while the physically capable the pilots was either physically or mentally able to handle the stresses. Their elite pilots were. Where did the elite pilots build the skills and G tolerances? Flying cheap aerobatic traditional aircraft. So while an F22 is technically superior, most pilots fly the T-38 and T-45 with far great effectiveness on the edges of their envelopes, and when they transition to the F-22, F-18 its years if at all that they expand their personal envelope to that of the superior aircraft. Why because the T-38 and T-45 are on the edge of what the average person can handle aircraft. All the rider aids do is selectively trim forces back to the levels so that the average rider can use less finesse and get away with it. Don't get me wrong it great for safety, but only the elite riders are able to turn it from being a safety net into a performance tool. Matt I really hope you get to ride an RX soon. It will surprise you with how much power and how well sorted it is for being a nearly all analog bike. Case in point while a quick shifter would be great, the tranny on the RX is so smooth and responsive it ALMOST could live without it. Unless your're an elite guy trying to shave 100ths you really won't notice much vs the 1199 with a quick shifter going up or down. The competition has one so the RX should have one to, but by the same token just because the competition needs one(talking to you ZX10R) doesn't mean the RX NEEDS one too. (Message edited by classax on July 25, 2014) | ||
| Trojan |
I'm saying there is something to be said for living without them. I'm all for that myself simply becaue I like to be able to maintain what I ride. My next bike is likely to be very simple/old (with carbs and points!) or an electric 2 wheeler  Matt I really hope you get to ride an RX soon. To be honest I haven't even seen one in the flesh yet, and I don't think there will be a dealer near me in the near future  | ||
| Classax |
Man, that's really a shame. While the RX has a family resemblance to the 1125 and even shares some DNA, it really is worlds apart in quality and performance. Very easy bike to work on as well. | ||
| Trojan |
Another defection to BSB... http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/roadrace-facto ry-team-to-race-in-final-british-supersport-champi onship-rounds/ It will be very interesting to see how Jake Gagne fares against the established BSB Supersports field. I expect him to do very well and look forward to seeing him and his team here | ||
| Classax |
LOL... Defection is sort of a strong word, I prefer to think of it more as an expansion. | ||
| Trojan |
Defection is sort of a strong word, I prefer to think of it more as an expansion. I'll be willing to bet that they stay for 2015. AMA hasn't got much to offer for next year yet has it, and Gagne needs to race in Europe? BSB will give him more WSS wild card opportunites as well. | ||
| Classax |
/\ You know I have gone on record several times as confident that AMA pro will not be around even to the level it was this year for 2015, but I am confident that there will be something to fill the vacuum as many teams simply can't afford to go overseas for the entire season. | ||
| Classax |
DMG announces the date for next years Daytona 200. it weird last year we went all the way into November without a single confirmed data for 2014. This year after an abysmal showing the only round likely to renew for 2015 is announced in July. Got to love their optimism. http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/ama-pro-racing -says-the-74th-daytona-200-will-run-saturday-march -14th-2015/ | ||
| Bads1 |
They hired two new people and Richie Morris being one of them. So maybe just maybe some changes could happen...... maybe | ||
| M2typhoon |
I'd like to know where all these rule changes are that they said they were going to institute... | ||
| Trojan |
I'd like to know where all these rule changes are that they said they were going to institute... This is the AMA we are talking about, so they will probably announce the rule changes the week before the season starts and after all the teams have their bikes built and ready to race. | ||
| Classax |
This is the AMA we are talking about, so they will probably announce the rule changes the week before the season starts and after all the teams have their bikes built and ready to race.  he said "all the TEAMS"... you must mean Daytona sportbike, because the superbike grid will likely only have A team in it. Pegram might also be back so that makes two, but KTM likely won't be back if its 6 or fewer rounds again, nor will Suzuki. Road America and Mid Ohio had very small crowds. If I'm those venues you'd have to pay me to host not the other way around. | ||
| Firstbuell |
actually, it's "AMA Pro" that we're discussing..... | ||
| Jaimec |
Apparently it is no longer a rumor: http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/news/racingnew s/14-09-03/American_Motorcyclist_Association_to_sa nction_MotoAmerica_s_professional_road_racing_seri es_in_North_America.aspx | ||
| Jaimec |
Best part of that whole announcement? DMG is GONE!! SO LONG! FAREWELL! Don't let the door slam you in the *** on the way out! On second thought... | ||
| Bads1 |
So Jaime am I reading this right?? That Daytona motor group has nothing to do with this and this is a entire different series because they were not even in the article. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Huh. It's not clear if DMG screwed it up as it was going into a death spiral anyway, or if the DMG *put* it in a death spiral, but they sure as hell weren't helping un-death-spiral it. Is this the first time US professional AMA racing has been aligned with FIM? | ||
| Jaimec |
No, at the end it said AMA bought it back from DMG and awarded it to FIM and KRAVE. DMG is out of the business of destroying professional motorcycle road racing in North America. | ||
| Bads1 |
Well.... now we have something to possibly be excited about and to build on??? Goodbye DMG. Oh yeah didn't richie morris just get hired at DMG?? | ||
| Classax |
What? SAY IT AIN"T SO! I'm http://youtu.be/29iaHMeC3F4 Now DMG can focus on FOX providing 20 hrs a week of boring nascar coverage. CBSS will likely be back in the mix or MAVTV which means I will have to assault my cable provider daily until they add it. I've been saying since March this would be DMG's last year. The question is will DMG put AMA through the wringer to host Daytona 2015. It wouldn't hurt very many if it was NOT on the schedule in favor of a 10 or 12 round season. Especially if the rules will look similar to FIM. AMERICAN SUPERBIKES YEA! |
