| Author | Message | ||
     Classax |
Believe it or not the teams have other commitments for the team and riders and PR folks outside of what is happening on the track. Hero is not the only team there that has not turned a wheel on the track. If I may offer an opinion( which is worthless but still free), if I were the team and I was VERY confident that Geoff was close to cracking superpole which is the next big goal beyond, both riders starting and finishing both races, I might not risk killing an engine and being forced to start from pit lane this time out. If we kill the engine during the round practices and have to do it, at least we were gaining track knowledge when we were doing it. I have a feeling that there was a significant knowledge exchange about the 1190RX( The bike so needs a real name)between the  and the  teams. With the exception of the mechanical over revs admitted as mistakes by Pegram and Yates, they don't seem to be going through engines nearly as quick as they were. Just an opinion though. | ||
| Trojan |
if I were the team and I was VERY confident that Geoff was close to cracking superpole which is the next big goal beyond, both riders starting and finishing both races, I might not risk killing an engine and being forced to start from pit lane this time out. On what evidence would the team even think that is possible though? Laguna was his home track and they pulled out all the stops (and saved engines at the expense of looking silly at the previous round) and still missed superpole by a significant margin. Much as I'd like to see it, I don't think it will happen without more development, and that requires more testing. Hero is not the only team there that has not turned a wheel on the track. Some teams such as Honda have both riders comitted to the Suzuka 8 hour race, others either don't need to test or are testing privately. EBR NEED to test more than any other team on the WSB grid so I can't see a significant reason to miss this test unless they don't have the hardware to complete it. PR duties should take a very low priority over engine and performance testing surely? With the exception of the mechanical over revs admitted as mistakes by Pegram and Yates, they don't seem to be going through engines nearly as quick as they were. That's kind of damning with faint praise unfortunately. By this stage of the season they should be beyond reliability issues. | ||
| Jens |
 http://www.speedweek.com/sbk/news/60532/Superbike-Test-Portimao-Weshalb-Buell-(EBR)-abreiste.html Original text: Kein anderes Team hat testen so nötig wie Buell. Trotzdem entschloss sich die Truppe, die Superbike-Tests in Portimão nicht wahrzunehmen. Die Hintergründe. Einfacher hätte es Buell nicht haben können: Nach den Rennen in Kalifornien wurden die Container mit dem Material ins Fahrerlager von Portimão geliefert, die Trucks waren noch vom Rennen vor gut zwei Wochen dort. WM-Newcomer Buell hätte Tests dringend nötig. Die EBR1190RX ist weder schnell noch standfest. Doch das Reglement schreibt vor, dass ein Fahrer pro Saison nur acht Motoren verbrauchen darf, für jeden weiteren muss er zweimal aus der Boxengasse starten. Zudem sind zwischen dem ersten und letzten Rennen einer Saison lediglich fünf Testtage erlaubt – Portimão heute ist der letzte. Buell steckt in einem unlösbaren Dilemma: Sie müssten testen um endlich Fortschritte zu erzielen, können aber nicht, weil sie mit den erlaubten Motoren ohnehin nicht über die Saison kommen. Buell kann sich kein Testteam leisten «Unser größtes Problem ist, Entwicklung mit Lebensdauer und der Limitierung der Anzahl Motoren zu vereinen», bemerkte Teammanager Giulio Bardi im Exklusivgespräch mit SPEEDWEEK.com. «Aprilia hat letztes Jahr 39 oder 40 Motoren benützt – und in diesen steckten viele Jahre Entwicklung. Wenn etwas schief ging, haben sie einen neuen Motor eingebaut. Wir dürfen das heute nicht mehr. Jedes Mal, wenn wir etwas an einem Motor probieren wollen, müssen wir ihn versiegeln lassen.» «Wir arbeiten beständig an neuen Teilen wie etwa Nockenwellen», versichert der Italiener. «Da wir nur acht Motoren zur Verfügung haben, braucht es eine Strategie für die Motorenentwicklung. Die Idee hinter der Limitierung der Anzahl Motoren war, die Entwicklung einzubremsen. Die Motorenentwicklung wird von EBR in den USA betrieben. Sie müssen aber auch schauen, dass die Motoren 1500 Kilometer halten. Das lässt sich nicht in einem halben Tag bewerkstelligen.» Bardi weiter: «Wir hatten etwas Pech. Bislang hatte nur einer unserer Fahrer Probleme. Wir haben vier Fahrer, zwei in den USA und zwei in der Weltmeisterschaft. Keiner von den anderen drei hatte je die gleichen Probleme wie an den Motoren von Geoff May. Wir dürfen in der WM nicht testen, können also auch nicht duplizieren, was in den Motoren passiert ist.» «Wir sind ein kleiner Hersteller und können es uns nicht leisten, ein extra Testteam aufzustellen. Außerdem ist es immer problematisch, wenn andere Fahrer testen und etwas entwickeln, als die eigentlichen Rennfahrer. Bis letztes Jahr hätten wir so viele Motoren verheizen können, wie wir hätten wollen. Dann kann man auch entwickeln und sich ans Limit herantasten.» Translation (main facts) Why Buell is heading home EBR Team Manager Giulio Bardi: -We contiously working on new parts like Camshafts», says the Italien. -Engine Development is made at EBR in the USA, but they must understand that these engines must be usable for 1500 Kilometer. -Wew had bad luck. Only one of our riders had these problems. We have 4 riders, we got 2 riders in the USA and and 2 in WSBK. None of them faced the same Problems as Geoff May. We are not allowed to test at WSBK, so we cannot duplicate what happend to the engines.» -We are a small manufacturer and cannot effort to run an extra Testteam. Also it is an problem to use developments other riders developed who are not the race riders. For full text use Google Translator +++++++++++ Happy Summer Holiday Team EBR | ||
| Classax |
I think its well established that right or wrong, the rest of the the world doesn't have to see things your way Matt. Laguna was his home track and they pulled out all the stops (and saved engines at the expense of looking silly at the previous round) and still missed superpole by a significant margin. Yep because less than a tenth is a HUGE margin! 19 67 B. STARING AUS IRON BRAIN Grillini Kawasaki Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'26.061 1'26.133 1'25.970 1'25.970 2.677 62 20 32 S. MORAIS RSA IRON BRAIN Grillini Kawasaki Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'28.660 1'26.617 1'26.073 1'26.073 2.780 56 21 11 J. GUARNONI FRA MRS Kawasaki Kawasaki ZX-10R EVO 1'27.122 1'26.695 1'26.080 1'26.080 2.787 60 22 99 G.MAY USA Team Hero EBR EBR 1190 RX 1'26.575 1'26.699 1'26.087 1'26.087 2.794 53 Looking silly!?! Much as I would have liked to see how well they would have done in the wet, even the commentators stated it was the right thing for them to do in pulling off, since nothing could be gained from it verses the risk of having to pit start at your home round. Hero is not the only team there that has not turned a wheel on the track. Some teams blah blah blah Reality is, many teams have had their haulers stored there since the race. Hero is not the only team that did not test, as to why, no one on here knows for sure other than what's been reported. I personally think they should have tested but if their reasoning says no, then they shouldn't. They have the bikes, parts, people and data in hand we don't. I don't always agree with their decisions but since I can't influence them, I won't moan about it either. With the exception of the mechanical over revs admitted as mistakes by Pegram and Yates, they don't seem to be going through engines nearly as quick as they were. That's kind of damning with faint praise unfortunately. By this stage of the season they should be beyond reliability issues. First of all my statement was neither pro nor con, just an objective observation of a fact. But if we have to color everything then we should be mindful that if you stick ANY bike in the wrong gear at race speeds and 7 out 10 will do some kind of damage, doesn't matter what OEM or model. Riders who are pushing hard make mistakes, it happens. I disagree with the whole "bad luck" excuse the team manager is spouting because May hasn't killed an engine since they fired.. I mean since the old engine builder quit. A fact just about everyone seems to continue to omit from conversations. Though he does have a considerable point in noting that in years past teams could "blow up" as many developmental engines as they could afford to build without any penalty. Still You will note both Pegram and Yates had over rev damage issues in race one. Pegram's team got his machine back together in time to make race 2, Yates was a last minute DNS. In other words, we here on the interwebs, don't really know if the apparent reliability problems were due to the team not knowing how to set up the bike/engines (which I have stated appeared to be the case from the beginning) or that they genuinely are too fragile to race at the WSBk level. The former continues to look more and more like the truth to me. | ||
| Tpoppa |
I remain unimpressed. Sorry cheerleaders. | ||
| Trojan |
Yep because less than a tenth is a HUGE margin! Actually it is a massive margin, because we arent talking about a tenth off tenth place are we? We are talking about being a tenth off 20th place at his home race where he as plenty of experience on this bike (albeit with different tyres) which negates all the previous excuses made. since nothing could be gained from it verses the risk of having to pit start at your home round. I'm sure the comment made by the TV commentator must have been the US TV feed, because it certainly wasn't viewed as sympathetically elsewhere. Personally I'm surprised that they weren't given a hefty fine by Dorna for not racing in race 2 because they wanted to sabe motors. What if every team decided to miss a race or two becaue they wanted to look better at their home race? Like it or not, this season has been a bit of a shambles for whatever reason. Not testing when they have the few opportunities has been the story of the season, and it they don't take the opportunity then they can't complain or blame anyone else when they suffer poor reliability and poor results. I'd love to see them do well but they seem to be detarmined to undermine their own chances at every opportunity this year  | ||
| Gregtonn |
Once again what we hear sounds like: "Based on my expert speculation and very limited knowledge of the facts I can say with absolute certainty...blah, blah, blah..." What part of know-it-all-twit doesn't fit that scenario? G | ||
| Trojan |
What part of know-it-all-twit doesn't fit that scenario? Sorry but as you are obviously far more clever than me and Jens, what explanation would you put on the decision not to test then? Liek I have said before, just because I criticize the WSB team doesn't mean it is criticism of EBR, so don't take it so personally. The fact is that the team probably need to test more than any other team on the grid but aren't testing, so all I want is the reasonable reason why they aren't testing? (Message edited by trojan on July 22, 2014) | ||
| Jscott |
^wake me up for the 2015 season, this one has jumped the shark Hopefully Hero/EBR clean house, fly to Haiti and bite the head of a chicken, spray everyone that remains with holy water, etc. because this season has been the biggest fiasco I've ever seen. | ||
| Nobuell |
I am as big a fan of Buell and EBR as anybody. The 2014 racing in general is disconcerting to me. My concern is the success of EBR. I believe the problems in racing will dampen sales of the new bikes. I believe that those interested in an EBR will be knowledgeable of racing. Everything about EBR is racing. They are competing for sales with companies like Ducati and Aprilia. Stop by Ducati Island during the Indy GP. There is a huge number of Ducati fans that know the racing world very well. I am sure that this is common at most racing venues around the world. This may not be the case for the folks looking far a Goldwing but the sport bike crowd will know and will base their buying decisions on results. Lets face it, deserved or not, Buell did not have the best of reputation out in the biking world. They will need to do better just to get an even shake. | ||
| Bigblock |
Well, I ran into a couple of old friends of mine out on our bikes sunday, who had also been to Laguna Seca. They are Ducatista die hards, dyed in the wool! They had sat on, and fondled the the RX and SX in the paddock area, and were raving about the light weight and high power. These are also ex racers, and hard core sport bike fans. These are the people who would be the potential new owners, certainly part of the targeted demographic. They had nothing negative to say, only positive things about seeing and holding the bikes, and seemed happy to see EBR racing at SBK and WSBK, and even expressed an interest in and the possibility of owning a new EBR. "Oh, I love the seating position on that naked EBR, that could be my next new bike" said jennifer, after she had climbed off of her 1098 race piped race computer street bike.She is an ex road racer by the way, and her Husband had a race team for a while, too. Not ignorant fan boys, sport bike and race enthusiasts, yet not even dissuaded by the results, or lack thereof, in WSBK. | ||
| Rubberdown |
BB, good stuff! I would love to see EBR get it worked out on the track! They sure have got me scratching me head right now. | ||
| Ljm |
That has been my experience with the Ducati crowd too. I met the guy who owns this at Laguna Seca (he was staying in the same hotel), told him I had an EBR and he knew exactly what it was. Wasn't bothered by this year's performance, but did have a lot to say about the AMA. He is a lifetime member. BTW, the bike is a Ducati NCR True Blue 1200. It is the only one in the world.  | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
the bike is a Ducati NCR True Blue 1200. It is the only one in the world. That's a tarted up Paul Smart Replica is all, and a fine example of someone with too much money over egging the pudding! Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
the bike is a Ducati NCR True Blue 1200. It is the only one in the world. I think he was pulling yoru leg  It is actually an NCR 'New Blue', which is a 'replica' of the True Blue bike made years ago but is in fact just a tarted up Sport Classic really. It is certainly not the only one in the world and NCR built 50 of them. http://www.ncrfactory.com/eng/html/11.04.shtml You can buy one here if you have $75K... http://raresportbikesforsale.com/2007-ncr-ducati-n ew-blue-50-of-50/ | ||
| Ljm |
Actually, the history is somewhat more involved that that and it isn't new, but it has been rebuilt and updated two times including frame and suspension changes and engine update then change. But you gents apparently have it covered. | ||
| Trojan |
it isn't new, but it has been rebuilt and updated two times including frame and suspension changes and engine update then change. Doesn't matter if he has rebuilt it 10 times with gold plated knobs and whistles, it is still one of 50 made. They were supplied with Ohlins suspenson so changing to a different Ohlins shock doesn't make it unique. if it did I'd have had a few 'only one in the world' bike smyself | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
Court - fill us in on just ONE piece of information then, please ENLIGHTEN US! You know this is laughable. I keep hearing that this is a developmental year/season, better prepared for next year...then why arent they getting track data through testing? Why not finish races (im not talking about the "well we're going to save the engine..." but instead when May retired from a race because he was getting lapped - WEAK!) and have the information that people keep saying is hard to acquire for this bike blah blah blah Yall make all these ridiculous excuses that come around and bite you on the butt "well they need more testing time" then they dont test Its bogus and you all know it. Do you not understand you can be critical of something and still a fan of it? Example: take your favorite band ever, is there not ONE song you dont care for? Are you LESS a fan because you acknowledge its a sub-par song? No, its being real about things. Thats all that many of us are saying - real talk. Keep on Court, post about how we know nothing, Im sure you will make some extremely vague remark and a "remind me to tell you about..." comment. I'll say it again - this team is laughable this season. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
But you gents apparently have it covered. Goodness me. Does every comment the Brit's make have to be addressed with sarcasm? End of the day it is an NCR customised Ducati though I had no idea it was or is a one off or one of fifty. What I do know is it looks like I could have built it with enough money to throw at it had I a Paul Smart to start with, which is simply a customised Sport Classic anyway. All I was saying is it's nothing that special over and above it being a money pit of a special. No doubt, as they go, it'll be a fantastic bike if put together by NCR. A friend has the 'mundane' Sport Classic and loves it. Rocket in England | ||
| Wymaen |
Goodness me. Does every comment the Brit's make have to be addressed with sarcasm? Only the ones that dismiss or refute -from afar- statements made to/by someone else. I'm guessing Ljm took the gentleman's statement at face value; whether or not it's truthful, the assumption is made that the owner of the motorcycle in question knows more about the bike than someone who doesn't. Ljm, Trojan, and Rocket (and everyone else) are all on the list of people who don't own the bike in question, so the only info they can truly know for a fact is the information given by the owner. Hmmm...the last clause in that previous sentence could be construed as commentary on much of the discussion in this thread regarding EBR's WSBK effort this season. I mean, if you were into hidden meanings and all.  | ||
| Classax |
Goodness me. Does every comment the Brit's make have to be addressed with sarcasm? That depends, does every comment the Brits make HAVE to be negative, judgmental or quasi insulting. One could have easily have pointed out what the bike is or isn't without calling it a "money pit", or an example of "over egging the pudding" or just as easily could have said "not you cup of tea" and moved on. Do you not understand you can be critical of something and still a fan of it? Yes Absolutely! Example: take your favorite band ever, is there not ONE song you dont care for? Yep! Kirk Whalum! The entire "In This Life" project with the exception of perhaps one song, and even that's a very shakey perhaps. Are you LESS a fan because you acknowledge its a sub-par song? No, its being real about things. I was with you up until you said Sub-par. Sub-par in terms of quality of production? Sub-par in terms of quality of musicianship? Sub-par in terms of lyrical, melodic or harmonic content? In the example I used, none of the above could even remotely be implied to be true. Kirk is at his usual virtuoso level of expertise. The project however, I find wrenchingly horrid because... I DON'T LIKE COUNTRY MUSIC. That's a judgment call. I don't think anyone has any beef with the objective observations that Hero/EBR is making a lot of mistakes and performing poorly in WSBk. Its all other stuff that comes from purely subjective personal views on what success or failure looks like that's causing all the heart burn. Point in case, Hero says "hey our next goal is to make superpole." Superpole is the top 20 quickest riders based on practice time laps. Hero's Geoff May missed superpole by less than a tenth of a second. They(HeroEBR) didn't hit the stated goal. Those are all objective observations. While technically any margin is significant(The significance is what makes it a margin,) saying they missed it by a "significant margin" because 20th is a full second slower than top 10 is an opinion... subjective. Pointing out someone's bike is a replica is an objective observation. Stating its nothing special just an over done money pit is an opinion ... subjective. Stating Hero EBR is running last or not at all in the finishes in WSbk races is an objective observation. Stating that they are somehow embarrassing themselves for trying or continuing to try is an opinion .... subjective I could go on but its my opinion that most of you get where I'm going...Subjective. Some of you won't. Objective observation. ..are all on the list of people who don't own the bike in question, so the only info they can truly know for a fact is the information given by the owner. Hmmm...the last clause in that previous sentence could be construed as commentary on much of the discussion in this thread regarding EBR's WSBK effort this season. ^^^^^ THIS^^^^^^^  | ||
| Reepicheep |
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| Ljm |
I see that this has gone on while I was at work, but with regard to the Ducati, I spent the better part of two hours with the guy, met three generations of his family and learned enough to know that he is wildly successful professionally and personally. So, I did take his discussion at face value. That being said, he told me so much about the bike that I would have had to have had a tape recorder to get it all. I do know that it has been back to Italy by air twice, it is on its third engine of his specifications, and that while the original had Olins forks, these aren't them. The are are a number of parts of his own design on it, not sold anywhere else and by anyone. He is easily well, well into six figures on it, but as he said, it has sentimental value (for some reason). He rides it. It is not a garge queen or a collector bike. He was out in the fog and light rain a couple hundred miles from home. My sarcasm, which is probably better than overt hostility, is due to the fact that it doesn't seem possible to make a statement without it being questioned, dismissed, etc. Has nothing to do with being a Brit. In my sport, the English speaking peoples have to stick together. | ||
| Ebmachine |
Ugh..."I DON'T LIKE COUNTRY MUSIC." Scary... | ||
| Jens |
Yeah lets stop talking about objective results of the EBR bikes & teams and turn Blakes place into a music forum. Now we can talk personal taste and opinions. Just my 2 coats of many colors... | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Time for a little clarity of nations me thinks. I have a Buell S1W Lightning Strike (coz it's a British model and we're being somewhat pedantic) I bought new 1998. During the 15 years and 11 months I've owned it, it has been heavily modified. Whilst the bike itself has never been back to Buell by air or sea, it did have a number of modifications in the first couple of years by an official Harley Davidson Buell dealer. Over the years I have continued to modify this bike. Whilst I have remained faithful to Buells design, never altering the frame, or the bodywork, or the suspension geometry, just about every part on the bike has had some attention given to it to make it a higher quality better bike than the Buell factory built. For example, it has Dymag carbon fibre wheels. The handlebar controls and switchgear are from ISR in Sweden. The engine is heavily modified for reliability and a power increase. It's a long list if I were to cover every modification here. No matter how long the list is, I have kept the bike as near stock in its appearance as possible to the original Buell design. What I have is a bike that no one else in the world has. It truly is a one off. Now if I were to run a race team in WSBK and call it Saab Workshop Racing, and race a few Buells, eventually selling let's say 50 modified Buell production bikes to the public and calling them SWR's. Imagine if some wealthy American bought one of my SWR's yet returned it to the company for more modification than the other 49 SWR bikes sold, as far as I'm concerned that bike would be nothing more than a heavily modified at best, Buell. Whilst it might be a one off, such descriptions are truly the preserve of manufacturer built bikes or the manufacturers associates or representatives where the manufacturer has endorsed the product. In the case of NCR, this might well be the case. But just because some wealthy Yank with a lot of greenbacks to chuck around comes along, buys the product then sets about changing it so it is no longer like any other, this does not make it worthy of a title such as 'it's the only one in the world' anymore so than my next door neighbour painting his old Honda CBX500 matt black and telling the same. In other words, it's nowt special. At least not that much more special than the Sport Classic / Paul Smart, other than it's had a lot of money chucked at it. Oh, just like my Buell then of which only one in the world exists. That must make me a person to be taken seriously when it comes to WSBK racing. The Buell (EBR) product, and the motorcycling world in general, me having made myself worthy by creating a one off motorcycle with an open cheque book. Like f**k it does! Ah I knew there was a point to my original comment Rocket in England | ||
| Jens |
http://www.speedweek.com/sbk/news/60587/Fortschrit te-bei-MV-Agusta-Das-Ende-der-Blamage.html MV tested at Portimão... Some Facts: -For the first time at the test constantly quicker then the Evo bikes but only Kawasaki rider David Salom was a real benchmark -Tested 3 new swing arms -Progress at the ride by wire System and with traction control, Anti-Wheelie and engine brake adjustment Use Google translator for more. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Many here keep insisting that the RX engine is little more than a bored out 1125 engine and insist that it is not being developed properly. Other also lament the lack of "hard parts" to properly develop the (now obsolete) 1125 engine. From the article in Sport Rider @ http://www.sportrider.com/sportbikes/2014-ebr-1190 rx-first-ride-review Quote: "The RX’s basic architecture is as it was on the RS, meaning power comes courtesy of a 72° V-twin with roots that can be traced all the way back to the Buell 1125. Compared to the engine you Buell fanatics are familiar with, this powerplant has a larger bore, newer connecting rods, cylinders, and head design with changes to the porting and flow. It has bigger titanium valves, "but then the flow chambers were also changed so that we could get more horsepower and let it breathe more,” Stefanelli adds. On the RX, engine updates result in 102 ft-lb of torque, 185 horsepower, and a 12,000 rpm rev limiter." To quote Stevel: "I own two 1125s and three engines for the purpose of reverse engineering." Maybe you're barking up the wrong tree. G | ||
| Fast1075 |
I restate my position. the current 1190 is an evolution of the original 1125. It is "technically" a "different" engine because it is not a "Buell", but an "EBR". From the above quote: "with roots that can be traced all the way back to the Buell 1125". Most successful engines evolve. The ones that do not fade into obscurity. | ||
| Crusty |
Sure; and you could trace the roots of the Sportster derived mill of the XBs all the way back to the 1952 K model Harleys. That doesn't mean a Firebolt engine was just an improved K model engine. |
