| Author | Message | ||
     Gregtonn |
Sighhhh...and you could purchase an Bimota frame, fully developed third party engine package (including MM WSBK electronics), add custom body work and slap on a few of your very own, in house designed, decals and call it whatever brand your prefer. That is just not the route EBR has chosen. I'm leaving the room now to go have a Red Bull of my own. G | ||
| Gregtonn |
As I was walking out the door I caught Rocket's post. I really think he gets it now. Maybe there is still hope for others. Later. G | ||
| Jens |
Prost Greg  | ||
| Hughlysses |
I don't know why EBR hasn't chosen a different approach from this, but I don't think anyone here will suggest EB is not a smart man and a great engineer. In the audio interview, he goes on about how there's no other way to gather the data that they need to develop a competitive bike other than by actually racing. He says even he couldn't conceive of some things that racers do to the bikes or that they want the bikes to do. If that's true, choosing to wait t a season to develop the RX into a bike to meet a set of "best guess" performance goals may not have done them much, if any good. Even if they don't achieve one decent finish this season (I do think we can count Larry's finish as decent), EBR will have gathered comprehensive data from every track on the circuit. They'll have a very good idea of the performance their engine, brakes, and suspension systems need to be achieve to be competitive. They finally have an A/B comparison between the AMA machine and WSBK machine on the same track. They'll have the data they need to engineer the changes to make the RX competitive. Is the off season enough time to engineer and develop the changes necessary to make a competitive bike after they have that data? Might they chose to sit out next season while they chew on all this data and develop the bike like Matt says they should have done before they ever showed up at a WSBK race? Will they make all the improvements they can but will next year's bikes be only marginally better than this year's bikes? What do the rest of you think?  | ||
| Classax |
Having a workable suspension set up and solid telemetry and GPS ECU data has a HUGE impact on how much progress a team can make during a race weekend. I don't think they will sit out a year, but I doubt they will come out of the gates on the podium next year either. The rules changes away from EVO standards will make it easier to continue development but harder to make up ground against their established peers. | ||
| Stevel |
H, I have no idea what EBR is thinking, but whatever his plan was, it has failed. results don't lie. All the rhetoric voiced by EBR or here is meaningless without results. I know some parts were made for this engine by EBR, but they have never been offered to the public and in many cases EBR has prevented their dissemination by sales by the actual manufacturer. EBR has actually inhibited the aftermarket from participating in the development of this engine. He has stated in his interview that his way is the only way to develop the bike. That statement is ridiculous. | ||
| Fast1075 |
There was a BadWeb member known as "Puzzled" who sourced parts towards the end of 2012 into 2013 for a 1250 motor. Parts from Del West, Carillo, CP, Crower, etc. You only have to know where to look. Road race guys seem to have this "double top secret" attitude. Not so much with the "other" discipline, Drag Racing. Any number of top level vendors can find, or make anything you want. Find an RS owner that has had the engine apart. RobRod on our board has one, and is in the know. I'll bet Larry Pegram's "RS to RX" conversion wasn't the only cross swapping of parts between the to "different" machines. Suddenly higher RPM capability for the RX motor didn't come from an electronics tweak, it came from better mechanical parts (cough) Carillo, like from a race RS. | ||
| Gregtonn |
I think Stevel has just unintentionally shown his hand. His past claims and bitter attitude make sense now. G | ||
| Jens |
http://www.speedweek.com/sbk/news/60195/Geoff-May-(Buell)-Kawasaki-das-schlechteste-Bike.html Translation of the essentials: Geoff May:"We give each weekend 110%, whatever happen. Earlyier or later we will make it, we never give up. Have a look into the past, there Kawasaki was the most worth bike in the paddock and now they are winning constantly races. Itīs our first WSBK year and we constantly learn." After the official Portimao-Test in the next week, WSBK goes into the summer holiday. May: "I hope for some new parts at the test. After that I will get rid of that metal plate I carry in my shoulder since Phillip Island" For more use Google Translator I resist to translate the last sentence about Pegram scoring.... So Greg donīt need to drink more of that oversugared austrian Powerdrink. | ||
| Buellmojo |
I wonder if another Manufacturer (KTM) collected some very valuable data from this past weekend? | ||
| Jens |
Oh yes interesting question.... Fillmore rode a 1:25.656 in the qualy with that old RC8R door stopper. AMA used the same track layout ?? 1:26.041 in the race.... http://www.amaproracing.com/rr/events/results.cfm | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"Geoff May:"We give each weekend 110%, whatever happen. " LOL | ||
| Rodrob |
RobRod on our board has one, and is in the know. While it's true that I own and race an 1190RS, and have held every single part in my hand, I would not categorize myself as "in the know"; more like, "on the quest". There are some on this board and elsewhere, who know a lot more about the 1190RS engine than I and I thank them for their insights. | ||
| Ezblast |
Stevel - you own a MC corporation - opinions like that - you should - EBR will do what they feel they must to win - because that is what Erik wants - to win races - Hero understands that, and everyone knows that to win in WSB will take time. I really don't see EBR holding anything back - quality control - yes. I'm pretty sure it's only a matter of time, then a EBR bike will take the podium, and more than once as well - lol EZ | ||
| Stevel |
Greg & EZ, I own no company. I build motors as a hobby only and have been for many years. I have no hidden agenda. Please note that hard parts are not available for this engine. They have been made by many companies, but are not being sold by either EBR or the firms that made them. Some of these firms state that the intellectual rights for these belong to EBR. If so, EBR should be selling them and they do not. There are exceptions like Carrillo, but others, like Suter and Andrews will not. The net effect is that each part I need I must make myself. This makes my efforts very time consuming and expensive. I am prepared to do this for items not yet produced, but for generic items that do not include IP. It makes no sense and is very frustrating. Every part I develop, I will make freely available to whoever wants them. Husbanding parallel development efforts only hurts the all American sport bike cause. | ||
| Court |
>>>>Some of these firms state that the intellectual rights for these belong to EBR. If so, EBR should be selling them and they do not. When a firm . . . say, like Porsche and the electronics for the 918 Spyder . . . contracts with a vendor to produce a part . . . the vendor has no right to sell that part to anyone. Try calling Delco and trying to buy a GM radio direct? While this may be frustrating to the amateur hobbyist, it's universal and makes good business and practical sense. This, by the way, often includes a moratorium. I am aware of one company that worked with a company in Austria to develop a motor. Another company really wanted parts that had been developed . . . . but there was a 10 year moratorium transfer on technology transfer. | ||
| Finedaddy1 |
Court is correct! Here @ Bell Helicopter we have a thing called a "Proprietary Information Exchange Agreement" with every vendor, and they are VERY limited to share our information with anyone else, let alone sell our products or show our prints/ drawings to anyone on the outside. | ||
| Hootowl |
NDAs are part of every contract I've been involved with at my place of business. Legal and Procurement won't let one through without it. An NDA is part of every master services agreement with every company we do business with. Why should EBR be any different? | ||
| Stevel |
Court, "While this may be frustrating to the amateur hobbyist, it's universal and makes good business and practical sense. " I agree, if the intent is to resell, but that appears not to be the case. This causes folks like myself to re-invent the wheel adding no value to either party. I am not talking about real IP stuff like a unique design, just generic stuff like an adjustable cam drive gear. | ||
| Classax |
As Court FineDaddy1,and Hootowl have already said, EBR SHOULD have NDA's in place with their supply Chain to protect both the OEM and the sub suppliers from counterfeits among other things. As is the case most often, what may be veiwed as a frustration to one person pursuing their own personal agenda, is often a very important guide line that protects everyone up and down the chain. One of our own members here has taken the correct approach to developing aftermakert parts for EBR machines. HE BOUGHT an RX and used his machine as the prototype for developing new parts. There is nothing wrong with the Aftermarket soliciting owners to donate their machines for research either much like Puig and zero gravity are in the middle of doing. Reverse engineering and improvement is what the aftermarket is about. For the record everything that has ever been designed or printed, or performed was or is real IP stuff to someone. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Stevel, I did not imply or believe that you owned your own company. When it became clear what your thinking was, I thought it appropriate to let you explain it yourself. EBR is not just a motorcycle company it is and engineering company. For a company to pay someone to develop and build technologies and prototype designs and then make the ideas free to the market would be foolish financially. Yes, I know universities and government organizations(i.e. NASA) etc. do this all the time but is usually on the taxpayers dime or funded by a private grant. Also, quote: "I am not talking about real IP stuff like a unique design, just generic stuff like an adjustable cam drive gear." While some designs may seem generic on the surface in reality they are not. For example: How many patented or proprietary versions have there been of the piston to crankshaft connecting rod? G | ||
| Gregtonn |
Oh and for the record; "throw away" designs and tech can be just as valuable as "break through" tech. The 3M PostIt adhesive was discovered when an attempt to find an adhesive that would bond strongly to anything resulted in an adhesive that wouldn't bond strongly to anything. Teflon was originally "gunk" that clogged refrigeration lines. G | ||
| Neutrum |
"EBR is not just a motorcycle company it is and engineering company" that is exactly what i was thinking when i've first seen the 1190rx and compared it to the barracuda... years of innovation... | ||
| Blake |
Wow. Ignorance. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Steve's point is valid. No company has the right to sell a product where there is no part supply from them, or at their prevention, from anyone else. How is one to proceed if in the case of say, a motorcycle, a component fails thus rendering the motorcycle redundant? Rocket in England | ||
| Gregtonn |
Quote: "No company has the right to sell a product where there is no part supply from them, or at their prevention, from anyone else." Not true. i.e.: A company can sell a cell phone without supplying anyone outside the company with the component parts. Phillips can sell a light bulb without marketing a repair kit. G | ||
| Court |
"Right" ...... Is an interesting word that likely means "what I wish..." as opposed to "right". | ||
| D_adams |
^ Who is doing that? | ||
| Court |
I'm thinking there are 3 or 4 such examples. In addition, at least 6 competitive manufacturers have picked up EBR products. | ||
| Stevel |
Reverse engineering is the only way, given the lack of market support for this engine. The only folks doing reverse engineering are the soft part makers simply because so few owners wish to do high performance motors there is insufficient market to justify the expense. I own two 1125s and three engines for the purpose of reverse engineering. If any of you know of hard part manufactures, please speak up. |
