| Author | Message | ||
     Classax |
Uhhh...the 1125 engine was on Rotax's web page for years. It was listed as a Rotax engine, just like the 800cc twin used by BMW. JOINT Development Projects. The Helicon like the Revolutioin were not sold as Rotax or Porches engine products. ""No, there actually are over 60 dealers nationwide, that's more than Aprilia or BMW." Where do you get this information? I just did a search of my zip code and there are 40 dealers within 500 miles of me." I should have been clear, by dealer I don't mean someone franchised to sell OEM parts, I mean somone who actually can sell you a bike and or do warranty work. In the case of BMW not everyone on the dealer list sell bikes or does warranty work. The number I heard quoted for full service in a meeting latter part of last year was 54. Aprilia list several stores that only do scooters, you could by a bike or have work done there even if you tried. | ||
| Trojan |
In fact our system has been tested as superior against production level dual disc systems. However, there likely is an advantage to the mega buck WSBK systems. That is why they are in WSb. if you want to race at that level you have to pony up and play the game. get some WSb level brakes instead of saying that your brakes are better than street brakes on other bikes....this isn't about street bikes, its WSB racing!! We may test a set of those, but haven't yet. Unfortunately were we to make an equivalently exotic ISO system, we could not run it, as brake systems have to be approved by WSBK before the season starts. read the rules  You can change the spec and give the FIM 30 days notice. You don't have to re-homologate (the caliper on the race bike is different to the street bike anyway, so unles they have to use the same 'system' under homlogation rules they are free to use anything on the FIM list). If it is just a case of using a more 'exotic' version of ZTL2 then they can it no problem under the current rule structure. | ||
| Crusty |
Enough. Don't you ever get tired of slagging everything EBR does? | ||
| Classax |
Right because the idea of a manufacturer trying to race with the brakes they sell on their bikes instead of a set of aftermarket ones that cost as much or more than the bikes themselves, is plain silly. Especially if those brakes take a different approach to the norm. The nerve. | ||
| Hughlysses |
No, there actually are over 60 dealers nationwide, that's more than Aprilia or BMW. EBR currently shows 72 dealers in the U.S.:  | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"The number I heard quoted" and where was this number quoted? Have you looked yourself? Im still finding it hard to believe that EBR has more dealerships than BMW. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
ps, here you go http://www.bmwgroupna.com/ 139 dealers dont spread false claims Also, there are LOTS of Monster decals on bikes here in the states, dont assume cause you dont see them that they arent out here | ||
| Trojan |
Right because the idea of a manufacturer trying to race with the brakes they sell on their bikes instead of a set of aftermarket ones that cost as much or more than the bikes themselves, is plain silly. Especially if those brakes take a different approach to the norm. The nerve. You are missing the point enturely. if you want to race the bike you sell the public then race in the Superstock class (as they are doing with Cory West in UK Superstock). If however you want to race COMPETITIVELY in WSB you can't complain if the rules allow brake upgrades and you decide not to take them. You have to read the rule book and then build a bike that fits those rules, not make excuses because your road bike can't compete against the bikes that are built specifically for WSB. What is the old saying about taking a knife to a gun fight? | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Right because the idea of a manufacturer trying to race with the brakes they sell on their bikes instead of a set of aftermarket ones that cost as much or more than the bikes themselves, is plain silly. Especially if those brakes take a different approach to the norm. The nerve. If the brakes are hindering the race bikes ability to post far better results it would be a tremendous mistake outside of racing for the companies profile and the bikes further potential sales success, particularly outside of the U.S, to not race with WSBK proven brakes if the current brakes used are problematic on and off track so to speak, one would imagine. What is to say EBR's could not be sold with their trademark brake without any detrimental affect to the brakes ability and choice for street use whilst not being used in racing. The marketing potential still exists to fully exploit the Buell design as a great, if not the better choice, for powerful street bikes. But I don't for a moment believe the brakes alone are EBR's racing problem. That would be the Rotax engine Rocket in England | ||
| Classax |
I didn't miss the point, I get what Mat and Rocket are saying. The knife in a gun fight is a perfect analogy. However I happen to agree with EBR wanting to test their metal so to speak. Its the only machine on the grid with stock wheels, brakes, sub frame, foot pegs, rear sets on and on... All the stuff you normally change to even go club racing on many other bikes, is good enough to run all the way to WSBk on the EBR right off the showroom floor. I think that was the case EBR was trying to make. Like Rocket says brakes aren't the biggest issue right now, ET-VT engine performance is. As I stated according a presentation I saw in an annual National Procurement and Supply Chain Management industry review meeting last year, it was presented that several OEMs use the franchise strategy in their dealer networks in which "dealers" don't actually sell the machines but are franchised to sell parts and apparel. BMW was one such OEM listed and the number of full service dealers was listed. At the time there was a pdf with the full list of dealers attached almost four pages worth, but the speaker pointed out only a portion were full service. (Message edited by classax on July 09, 2014) | ||
| Trojan |
However I happen to agree with EBR wanting to test their metal so to speak. Its the only machine on the grid with stock wheels, brakes, sub frame, foot pegs, rear sets on and on... All the stuff you normally change to even go club racing on many other bikes, is good enough to run all the way to WSBk on the EBR right off the showroom floor. You see that is the main point of devergence in opinion. if you are going to race at WSb level then why take astock bike just to preve that it isn't going to be competitive. Nobody watching WSb TV will see that it has stock footpegs (who really cares?) or wheels or whatever. What they will be looking for is a decent performance in the race. By advertising the fact that they are still using stock parts in their WSB campaign they are actually in danger of telling the message, 'not only are we uncompetitive with stock parts but we are unreliable too!' Not the greatest advert for a manufacturer trying to sell bikes worldwide at the moment. brakes may be a secondary issue at the moment, but if they are holding the bikes back by even 1 second a lap they should be replaced for race use, simple. If you want to test your road bike on track then hire a track for private testing. If you want to race your road bike against other road bikes then enter Superstock. if you want to race against other WSb spec bikes then build a WSB spec bike that can compete at that level. Anything less is just madness in marketing and engineering terms. The current ploy of trying to show that the stock bike can be competitive at this level is in danger of biting back right now (if it hasn't already)  | ||
| Classax |
You see that is the main point of devergence in opinion. if you are going to race at WSb level then why take astock bike just to preve that it isn't going to be competitive. Nobody watching WSb TV will see that it has stock footpegs (who really cares?) or wheels or whatever. What they will be looking for is a decent performance in the race. But you guys are the ones who say people look at WSBk as a determining factor in purchases. The BIKES in WSBK for the most part are nothing like what you can purchase because of all the stuff that is has to be changed to even make the grid. A person making a purchase at this level is going to be aware of that. We disagree on the inclusion of race kit parts in SS and EVO even though I have posted proof of such from OEM's own specs, so we need not address that, but all the little things matter. A set of rear sets will set you back between $400 and $1K. If you own a Panigale you have replace the subframe before you go racing at that level. If you own a ZX10r there's a whole list of stuff that by the time your done you could almost build a new bike with the left overs. That’s s part of what makes EBR's story so amazing in that they have even managed to get on the grid with it. I hear what you are saying on the possibility of the backfire. When Max Biaggi was downing engines like water, no one said OH the RSV4 may be fast but it is unreliable. They knew racing at the highest level tears stuff up. Anyone involved with racing knows it puts wear and tear on engines at an exponential rate compared to what happens when thrashing on a street engine. We don’t know what the rotation cycle is so we don’t know how long each engine is actually in the bikes. Still I admit there may be the odd group of simpletons that isn't able to rationally connect all those dots and assume they all blow up and the street bikes will too. Point taken. However since the objective is develop what they have while gaining press and WSBk is currently the only series they can achieve those objectives it would be nice if people would stop whining about it because it isn't going to change. If you want to test your road bike on track then hire a track for private testing. If you want to race your road bike against other road bikes then enter Superstock. if you want to race against other WSb spec bikes then build a WSB spec bike that can compete at that level. Unless you think(rightly or wrongly)you have a road bike capable of running in WSBK or you need the exposure and are willing to take the risks to get worldwide press. If you know you what you have in the lab but want to compare it to your peers at the highest levels. Then you run WSBk. I don't think the brakes are holding them back(right now). I continue to note that Yates has turned WAY more laps than May and he has not killed nearly as many engines. May's engine builder quit and I haven't heard that they have killed another engine since. They have cracked the seal on a few (mods and repairs) but not retired any. So I don’t know that it’s fair or logical to suggest the EBR’s are any less reliable than the other bikes on the grid. The new parts upped the trap speeds a bit and I still feel based on the math, there is more to be found. The trouble with engines and making power is they don't always follow the math, that's why they test and race them. They took a gamble in WSBk, right now they are loosing BIG but it's not too late to break even with 10 out of 26 races left to go. (Message edited by Classax on July 09, 2014) | ||
| Diabuell |
Has Erik Buell himself said anything about what is going on with the WSBK effort? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Has Erik Buell himself said anything about what is going on with the WSBK effort? There's actually a motorcycle racing group/forum on LinkedIn (sort of the professional equivalent of Facebook). Erik made a few comments there early in the season but I haven't seen anything from him in a while. Last time I checked, the comments from others were all very positive and understanding of EBR's position as a newcomer/underdog. | ||
| Gregtonn |
I am sure that EBR are impressed with the value of the information available to them from the know-it-all, condescending twits at this site . Especially given their lack of true inside knowledge and facts. G | ||
| M2typhoon |
^ Bravo!!! | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
So you think he wants to be surrounded by a bunch of "yes" men? interesting... Let me try: Oh EBR are doing SO great at WSBK racing, its a good thing they entered because they are gaining precious information and winning over so many customers by their great results. Everyone has "bad" seasons where they fail to either start or finish a race most of their races, thats normal and NOTHING to be concerned with. | ||
| Diabuell |
There's actually a motorcycle racing group/forum on LinkedIn (sort of the professional equivalent of Facebook). Erik made a few comments there early in the season but I haven't seen anything from him in a while. Last time I checked, the comments from others were all very positive and understanding of EBR's position as a newcomer/underdog. This sounds like what really counts because the bottom line is until He and Hero decide that the WSBK effort is a not working, none of us knows what they have in the works. Me for one like the fact that they are cooking the engines and doing all the reserarch and development so when they do iron it out we the consumer will have a bullet proof bike we can count on. When I bought my first Buell I was stuck between air cooled years in service bullet proof XB12R or first year water cooled with way more HP but no history and a clutch recall 1125R. I took bullet proof (44000 miles and counting and still ticking  ). First of anything is usually the guinea pig. Seems like the 2nd year 1125R was a major improvement. One thing for sure is, they are learning their lesson. All the best to EBR and Hero | ||
| Classax |
I'm interested to see how my man Johnny Rea does his first time at the famous track in sunny SoCal. I hope they (Pata) can get more consistent here in the second half and mount a real challenge to Mr. Sykes. Is it me or are the Aprilia boys fighting more and more with each other these last two rounds? | ||
| Jscott |
Leon Camier to ride MV Agusta F4 at Laguna! http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/camier-to-ride -mv-agusta-in-place-of-injured-corti-at-mazda-race way-laguna-seca/ | ||
| Gregtonn |
...SoCal??? G | ||
| Simond |
Is it terrible that my first thought when I saw Corti's crash was that Leon would have a ride next weekend? Even he admits that he is ambulance chasing this year! On the EBR front...... I think that what Matt said about speed traps being just before the braking zones and the fact that May/Yates could be braking or backing off earlier than the rest of the bikes makes a lot of sense. While a top speed deficit would be understandable this year, the size of the difference has been surprising. | ||
| Classax |
SoCal??? Southern California LOL! It is along the central California coast I would guess, but its kind of like in New York, anything not a part the New York City metroplex is often called "upstate" regardless of actual location relative to the city. If its South of the Frisco Bay it sometimes gets called Southern California Why the case for either, I don't know...  | ||
| Gregtonn |
'S alright just giving you a hard time. I lived in the Bay Area for quite a few years. It's where I bought my first Buell and not far from where I first met and talked with Erik. I've been to Laguna Seca many times and even taken a few laps around the track. Just never heard it referred to as SoCal before. You're right about the New York thing. My son just moved to Cambridge after living a dozen or more years in Manhattan and Brooklyn. He's talking about moving to the real SoCal area (LA). G | ||
| Buellmojo |
I would like to see Pegram have a great race, and for some reason, I truly think that he will. | ||
| Gregtonn |
I would love to see Doug Chandler (I think he still lives over the hill in Salinas and is a multi AMA champ on Kawasaki) take a couple of laps on an EBR and give his opinion. G | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I'd enjoy to give my opinion on Laguna, but as a know-it-all, condescending twit, I doubt EBR would be impressed with the value of the information available to them from me  Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
I am sure that EBR are impressed with the value of the information available to them from the know-it-all, condescending twits at this site . Especially given their lack of true inside knowledge and facts. Really funny how us know-it-all, condescending twits seem to be proved so right though as time goes on....must just be coincidence seeing as we don't know any 'inside' facts maybe you don't need too much inside knowledge to see that a team is struggling? | ||
| Hughlysses |
At least nobody's accused you of being upper class twits.  | ||
| Crusty |
Really funny how us know-it-all, condescending twits seem to be proved so right though as time goes on....must just be coincidence seeing as we don't know any 'inside' facts ; ) It's like a shotgun blast. If you throw enough shit out there, some of it is going to stick. |
