| Author | Message | ||
     Hybridmomentspass |
"Geoff and Aaron know this track- how many seconds/lap is that worth? " if they were the only two, it'd be worth a lot. But since they arent the only ones who know the track - zip. what have they shown improved with the improved motor? Still qualify at the back, many seconds behind, and didnt do anything in the race, so who knows | ||
| Trojan |
Becaue the WSB riders only visit each track once per year, and testing at tracks they race on is severely limited,track knowledge isn't the 'magic bullet' that people sometimes expect unfortunately. The top guys learn tracks extremely quickly (first session mostly before they get down to respectable speeds) and most have raced at Laguna before. I think they will have to hope for a pretty high attrition rate to get near the top ten. | ||
| Classax |
I think the goal here was to prove or disprove how far they could get with the production machine sans the hand picked and race kit and they got pretty far but not close to far enough. Wrong on a number of levels I think. They have proved that the EBr race bike in its current form is an unreliable machine gthat is incapable of finishing races DESPITE being stock (so they say) and nowhere near running at the pace required for WSb level competition. They have never got close enough even to the EVO (Superstock spec) bikes let alone the full fat superbikes. If the EVO bikes weren't there then the EBRS woudl be running around 5 seconds adrift of the pack every race so far, which is just appalling. The result of all this is that the EBR team arrive at their home round as the whipping boys of WSb and the butt of criticism and jokes from fans and forums (and potential customers) worldwide. I don't deny that some of that may be true to some extent. I don't think the machines on the grid in WSBK have performed even as well as their AMA counterparts or even to level of the machines that have made it onto the streets. But as we have proven there is an idealogical difference between what has become to camps on this thread. Those who feel EBR should only be in a racing enviorments where they have a likely chance to win. ( forgive me if that's an oversimplification, no offense intended) and those who feel the race track is fine place to test and develop your products at the highest level. Its a time honored tradition in some many moto circles in the US. I tend to believe Erik when he says he didn't want a half million dollar prototype out there but wanted to test what they sell. So showing up with stock components wouldn't have been outrageous especially since they said they expected the year to be a learning year. I'm not saying who's wrong or right, just different ways of slicing the same pie. As far as Laguna- The realist in me says May will likely crash out trying way too hard and Yates will be very conservative and run near if not last again. Looking at the wining times from last year,and what EBR have normally done there, EARTHSHATTERING SUCCESS would see both bikes in the finish by scoring a (1) point (Top 15). Laguna shouldn't see them having their brake problems and is tight enough to allow them exploit what little advantages the EBR WSBK chassis may have. I've heard quotes that the rsv4's in WSBK are $415K machines with 4years of development. We know the bikes Sykes is on is a $250K machine with 4 years of development. If you show up with an undeveloped $50K machine you know what you're in for. But sometimes that's where you have to start. In other news Rea put in a cracking ride in the wet. I really like the way that guy rides! | ||
| Neutrum |
you're right, i wanna see ebr testing bikes on racetracks...but does that have to be on racetracks during wsbk-competition with the strong possibility of destroying the last bit of reputation? | ||
| Mrakz83 |
Well they might have continued racing in AMA... If there were any races. I'm surprised no one has made this point amidst all the bashing. I would have gone to WSB also. (Message edited by Mrakz83 on July 08, 2014) | ||
| Buellmojo |
"Why did you choose this year to broaden the scope of the team and compete overseas?" "we decided it was time to move to that next level to maximize worldwide exposure." I am not sure where the other speculated reasons came from? Worldwide exposure has certainly been accomplished. | ||
| Classax |
Point taken, but we're not the one who are in charge. Apparently the ones who are think it was/is worth it. The reality is they could have done well in superstock perhaps, but there is only one race per round and not really in traditional press for that series. So we have what we have. Looking at the May and Yates best times ever at Lagauna vs what WSBK did last year, assuming they can reproduce those personal best times, they would still be 3-4 seconds off the pole, get lapped by race end, finish outside the points. What I really find interesting is that looking back over the season. The Factory Kawi Evo has been consistently 1-2.5 seconds quicker a lap than the other Kawi EVO's who all run within 5 tenths of each other. While the Evo Panigale started the year a full 4 seconds a lap slower than the superbike and is now only 2 seconds slower than the big bike around the track. Its weird becasue the EVO's in terms of power are supposed to be practically "stock" but they are all 2-4 seconds quicker than the superstock machines and their traps speeds also about 8-12 kph higher. I know they'll be riders and suspension improvements from one class, but still. Kind of neat | ||
| Hughlysses |
One thing we haven't ever discussed is WHO was looking for worldwide exposure- it wasn't necessarily EBR. Hero's footing the bill for this effort and they may have much less interest in fielding a competitive team and more interest in just getting the Hero name seen around the world as a marketing tool for the small, inexpensive motorcycles that are their present bread and butter. Does the average guy in a poor country buying a motorcycle for transportation care if Hero is successful in WSBK? I'm sure it wouldn't hurt for Hero to be seen as being successful, but it wouldn't create many more sales of these kinds of bikes than just the name "Hero" being seen. Hero may be perfectly happy with this season viewed from that standpoint. | ||
| Classax |
I guess the other issue is EBR an Engineering company with a brand identity for being innovative and trying different approaches to building the mouse trap. Not finding immediate success of even object failure with a machine they state is being actively developed doesn't really hurt that image. Hero definitely is pushing the effort from a money perspective, so they may feel any press is good press. How many of us knew who Hero was before this season. Not many. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
With all the talk on this thread about EBR's racing success, or lack of, I will reiterate again my feelings. I believe EBR has a far more reaching agenda and plan for the future then "just" winning races even as much as Erik, I'm sure, would like to being a true racer at heart. For me, and using my older experience, I will be patient for years, if I hang around for a while longer, and wait to see just where EBR is in the future. We, on this forum and while out riding, have all heard, "Buell is shut down" or "Buell is dead" or especially on this thread, "they'll never be a viable motorcycle company if they don't win races". Well I will say, lets just wait and see. We went all through this on BadWeb back in 2007 waiting to see what the 1125R's would be like and went through all the speculation both pro and con. I just waited and when they came out I bought number 296 and have been enjoying the best bike I have ever owned since then and still do every time I swing a leg over it and hit these canyons of Utah. There was more speculation on where Erik and the Elves were going when HD shut them down and again I just waited and WOW! have they endured and moved ahead, bigger and better then ever. A true Pegasus. I will finish by saying; all this bench racing and speculation is kind of fun but lets just hang out and see where they are in 1,3,5, and 10 to 20 years. Until time passes enjoy your new 1190's, others that might come, your old tuber or whatever you're on and stay "in the wind" and keep on posting; it is fun. Bob. | ||
| Buellmojo |
Considering the word "We" being used, that usually, if not always, includes the person saying it...In this case, Erik Buell himself. Rather Erik's idea or not, one would think that he would have the final say in this decision...The terms "Fiercely Independent", and "The Governor Is Off", that EBR is so proud of, would/should clarify all doubts of this, would it not? | ||
| Court |
Out of 1,000 registered motorcycle owners I'd wager less than 1 could tell you what "WSBK" stands for . . they have never heard of the series. Do me a favor . . . . drop by any dealership next weekend. . . . skew the field in your favor by going to the local crotch-rocket emporium and ask 10 folks "hey, how is EBR doing in WSBK?" They will ask two questions, to wit: 1) What is EBR? 2) What is WSBK? For a follow up . . . . ask them who their favorite riders are. I've been in the business, in one form or another, since 1987 and can name 2 riders in the current WSBK competition. . . . May and Yates. I suspect that the folks at EBR, while sharing a good deal of the disappointment their fans do, is getting precisely what they want from their involvement. I think you need to take a closer look at EBR, what they are doing and where they are heading. | ||
| Trojan |
Out of 1,000 registered motorcycle owners I'd wager less than 1 could tell you what "WSBK" stands for . . they have never heard of the series. maybe where you live, but in Europe every motorcyclist knows what World Superbike is and probably who is winning (and losing). They will ask two questions, to wit: 1) What is EBR? 2) What is WSBK? They may not know the ans3wer to question one becaue the coverage EBR had recieved this year in WSB is precisely zero, which actually may be a good thing for them. However if you ask people who do follow WSB (most serious motorcyclists) they will know who EBR are and just how poorly they are performing. Now ask the same people: Based on what you have seen so far, would you buy an EBR? You may get a poor response  If you want good exposure from racing you really need to do well (or at least not break down or fail to start races). The only coverage EBR have had so far is negative, and that is not good for EBR or Hero. I've been in the business, in one form or another, since 1987 and can name 2 riders in the current WSBK competition. . . . May and Yates I've been in the motorcycle business for 15 years and could probably name every rider that has ever ridden in a WSb race (except the odd wild card maybe), and I am just an average race watching punter over here. Most people would struggle toname Yates or May simly bnecaue they never get seen on TV.e | ||
| Buellmojo |
"I think you need to take a closer look at EBR, what they are doing and where they are heading." I think most of the writing is on the wall for "what they are doing"...and "where they are heading", that will depend heavily on what EBR is currently doing...Not just the race effort! | ||
| M2typhoon |
Once again Trojan, you speak for yourself. The fact that Court is 100% correct about everything he just stated can be blamed on the American public in general. Certain demographics of riders would rather go to their local sandwich or coffee shop than watch WSBK. The rest of them wear do-rags and their bikes spend more time sitting at the bar burning brain cells than burning fuel. Then there are those who live to wheelie down the interstate and become road pizza... I even personally know many local racers that have no idea Erik even started another company or that the engine isn't being built by Rotax. The fact is, this site is an anomaly. There are people here who give a crap about what happens. There are people here who pay attention. Maybe 10% of the motorcycling public in the US may know a single rider in WSBK, most of said riders have been in WSBK longer than EBR has been mass producing bikes (the RX). | ||
| Buellmojo |
"hey, how is EBR doing in WSBK?" They will ask two questions, to wit: 1) What is EBR? 2) What is WSBK? How will you explain to them? I know how I will (without excuses)! Now 10 more people know...then how many people will know? Do you think they will not share with someone else, maybe not all, but some certainly will? You might want to rethink this challenge, I can't see it going in EBR's favor, at all! | ||
| Court |
Try it ..... It's like magazine reviews. Ever see what % of registered motorcycle owner subscribe to any motorcycle magazines? We...... A minuscule slice of a subset on the internet lack a cogent ability to see the big picture. | ||
| Rubberdown |
A business model based on the ignorance of consumers? The ole 1 out 10 suckers will buy anything rule. ?? Thanks, but no thanks. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Why are we even speaking of the RS? The RS is a different animal all together and it is a street legal race bike. The RX is not. Also..last time I checked, they're using the RX in WSBK, not the RS. It's the same bike in one form or another. Rocket in England | ||
| Tpoppa |
I'll bet if I went into my local Ducati dealership a good number of Duc owners would be familiar with WSBK. And that is the exact demographic that EBR is targeting. Also, there are better and more cost effective methods of R&D than fielding a WSBK team...or two. | ||
| Tpoppa |
Here's another challenge... Can you guess the number of negative comments about WSBK and the upcoming round at Luguna that were deleted from the EBR Facebook page today? | ||
| Ljm |
Good on the fb page. The silly assed idea that it's OK to go to their page and trash them deserves that response. When I grew up, if you went to someone's house and insulted them, you could expect to be asked to leave. If you were lucky. Bravo. | ||
| Classax |
They may not know the ans3wer to question one becaue the coverage EBR had recieved this year in WSB is precisely zero, which actually may be a good thing for them. However if you ask people who do follow WSB (most serious motorcyclists) they will know who EBR are and just how poorly they are performing. Like I said, I' don't know if the coverage is different here vs across the pond, but EBR is mentioned in some form EVERY RACE (not round RACE) When May pulled in after 6 laps the commentator even went into the strategy of saving an engine for Laguna and that there was nothing to be gained in the conditions. He thought it was smart.(I wanted him to stay out and see how the bike ran in the wet but hey) Anyone who is serious about motorcycling is a serious motorcyclist. There are people who are motorcyclist and not for that matter who seriously follow WSBK. Don't confuse the two. Anyone who follows any form of racing knows the machines on the track are not indicative of what you will get on the showroom and that it only matters if you are buying a machine as a donor for that specific type of racing. EBR's biggest obstacle is misinformation. The engines aren't ROTAX! They never were. BRP owns Rotax, the Helicon was never a Rotax branded engine any more than the Evolution engine in the VRod is a Porches engine. No its not a Ducati or MV. No EBR stands for Erik Buell Racing. No its not air cooled. No the engines are assembled in WI. USofA. No the whole bike and engine are made in the US. Yes parts are sourced from all over the world like anything else. No they are not affiliated with Harley. No there is no oil in the swing arm. No it’s still a V twin. No its an LED headlight. No it doesn't have riding modes, it has 20 levels of traction control. Yes its 165hp at the REAR wheel. No, there actually are over 60 dealer nationwide, that's more than Aprilia or BMW. No the clutch is vacuum assisted so it pulls lighter when the engine is running. No the chain slack is measured on top not the bottom. , No it doesn’t pull to one side when you get on the brakes. No you wouldn’t need new rear sets, the pegs are adjustable. No the wheels don’t match because they do different jobs. No the muffler IS UNDER the bike. No it’s a tune pipe for smoothing out the midrange. No a four stroke CAN have a tune pipe exhaust… No,the frame is the fuel tank, ON and ON and on! Will people NOT buy them because they blow up a few stock bikes in world superbike running on the ragged edge, above where the stock rev limiters are set? Hmmm Might affect a few squids who really want a GSXR any way, perhaps a few Ducatista who would still look down their noses even it one every race for the next 20 years, but the people who buy this bike know enough about bikes to know when something is going to work for their riding style. People who like to be different. People who like the Ole school V twin feel. Here in Texas most of the track records are held by one man TY Howard and he set them all on a RC8R. Listen to Ty when he speaks period. Have him explain why he likes the RC8R and Vtwins in general are his weapon of choice and why he is faster on them. The EBR best that bike in every area. Will he buy one? NOPE! Why Ty Why? " Oh no its a GREAT bike, but its too new to race, not enough replacement parts let alone race tuning stuff. I'm sure its a hell of a street bike but I don't ride street, and I race my track bikes. May be in a few years." He’s a huge WSBk fan and strangely he didn't mention it as a reason he wouldn't buy. ALL the people I ride with on a regular basis are huge race fans. More than half think anything with the any combination of the letter Buell in the name is unreliable crap. They take great pleasure in telling me how poorly EBR is doing. I take great pleasure in demonstrating how it performs in WSBK and here in these next series of corners and straights are worlds away. So while Aaron and Geoff may get smoked by Tom and company, it’s a whole nother ball game when you're footing the bill for you're own go fast on the machine in your garage.. In short there are those will never like it/buy it, those who don’t know it well enough to know they might like it, those who have done enough research to make an unbiased informed decision for or against, and the fans boys who will buy it because that’s what fan boys do. I like Erik and I REALLY want him to succeed but not enough to buy a bike that didn’t work for me. Best bang for dollar choice may be not, best Bike ever, may be not, best combination of compromises for ME, oh definitely. WSBK plays nothing in that decision. (Message edited by Classax on July 08, 2014) | ||
| Jaimec |
Case in point: The Yamaha YZF-R1 is dominating AMA SBK (when they actually bother to hold races, that is), but in comparison test after comparison test online and on the printed page, that bike comes in nearly dead last. So much for racing having any bearing on reality. | ||
| Trojan |
Once again Trojan, you speak for yourself. The fact that Court is 100% correct about everything he just stated can be blamed on the American public in general. Certain demographics of riders would rather go to their local sandwich or coffee shop than watch WSBK. But we are not just taslking about selling bikes to the american riding public here, otherwise Erik could have stayed in AMA racing where the EBR was comfortable. By going to World Superbike Racing you are advertising and attempting to sell your bikes to the rest of the world, a large majority of which DO follow WSB and DO know who is riding and for what manufacturer. As Tpoppa says, ask Ducati riders (or Kawasaki/Honda/Aprilia) sportsbike riders about WSb and they will be more knowledgable than your average harley rider, and THEY are Eriks market for the 1190 surely? ALL the people I ride with on a regular basis are huge race fans. More than half think anything with the any combination of the letter Buell in the name is unreliable crap. They take great pleasure in telling me how poorly EBR is doing. These are exactly the people that Erik is trying to sell to (or do you think he is only trying to attract previous Buell owners?). Will they consider buying an EBR on the WSB results so far? The Yamaha YZF-R1 is dominating AMA SBK (when they actually bother to hold races, that is), but in comparison test after comparison test online and on the printed page, that bike comes in nearly dead last. So much for racing having any bearing on reality. But Yamaha are having no trouble selling R1's are they? A lot of those sales are still based on winning the WSB championship and pretty much every domestic championship in 2009. How many race painted R1's do you see around? I'll bet every other one has a Monster sticker on it somewhere and that comes from following racing. Why do you think Yamaha are working 24 hours a day to perfect their next WSb weapon for 2015/16? | ||
| Tpoppa |
The engines aren't ROTAX! They never were. BRP owns Rotax, the Helicon was never a Rotax branded engine Uhhh...the 1125 engine was on Rotax's web page for years. It was listed as a Rotax engine, just like the 800cc twin used by BMW. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"No, there actually are over 60 dealer nationwide, that's more than Aprilia or BMW." Where do you get this information? I just did a search of my zip code and there are 40 dealers within 500 miles of me. | ||
| Wymaen |
Raz Man- Is it true that the WSBK team put regular rotors and brakes on and went 3 SECONDS per lap faster???? EBR- No, it is not true. Where in the world did that come from? BTW, there are no "regular" brakes on the other bikes on the WSBK grid. The trick stuff there is 10K Euros per bike! Razz Man- Watch the Eurosport broadcast, one of the Brit announcers said it during the warmup lap for race 2. And you know that I meant the not perimeter braking system lol! EBR- Well the commentators completely made that up. In fact our system has been tested as superior against production level dual disc systems. However, there likely is an advantage to the mega buck WSBK systems. We may test a set of those, but haven't yet. Unfortunately were we to make an equivalently exotic ISO system, we could not run it, as brake systems have to be approved by WSBK before the season starts. From the EBR Facebook page. Posted yesterday. May everyone's tits remained becalmed. | ||
| Hughlysses |
May everyone's tits remained becalmed.  | ||
| Classax |
These are exactly the people that Erik is trying to sell to (or do you think he is only trying to attract previous Buell owners?). Will they consider buying an EBR on the WSB results so far? World Superbike results are irrelevant to the purchasing equation at this level. One doesn't buy or not buy an exotic because of how it does in a race series unless you plan on racing it in that series. EBR is not after the Honda, GSXR, Kawi demographic. They are after the KTM,Ducati, Aprilia, MV demographic. I'm not saying the typical in that segment buyers are more sophisticated, its just the buyers put a lot more thought and far more factors than how they are doing in WSBK come into play. Bimota is doing great, guess how many they will sell, here's hint EBR has already sold more than RX then Bimota can build bikes in a year. They guy who buys either one is thinking about WSBK when he does. But Yamaha are having no trouble selling R1's are they? Can't speak for the UK, but in the US the R1 although almost always voted most beautiful bike, is the worst seller. Partly because it hasn't improved much in years, and in non AMA Graves$85K trim, its FAT, the engines is lowest in power and softened in delivery because of the crossplane. Good deals on zero miles 2012,13,14's everywhere. I know at least 4 dealerships that have been absorbed or closed. The CBR1000RR and SP aren't doing much better. The Zx10r is a better bike than both and its doing ok. A lot of those sales are still based on winning the WSB championship and pretty much every domestic championship in 2009.  They may have heard of Yamaha from racing but I can't think of a single guy I know with an R1 who bought it because of racing. Generally its either they liked the way it looks or they spec sheet raced and it won. On track has too many variables to even consider. How many race painted R1's do you see around? I'm not everywhere but in my neck of the woods you almost never see a race replica bike, Tri colors and the odd special edition collectors edition, But not really. Motor vehicles in the US, specifically motorcycles are often a statement of individuality and freedom. So no, maybe you have fan boys like that over there. I'm sure we do to but I just don't see them. I'll bet every other one has a Monster sticker on it somewhere and that comes from following racing. Monster and Red Bull are the Nike swoop of power sports they're one dog gone near everything. They're the Marlboro of the 2K's. Despite that not many people decal up unless they actually have a sponsor or use the product here. To do so is considered a bit lame, to be a poser if you will. Someone help me out is it different where you are? Maybe the scene is like that in the across the pond but not in the US. But just so you know EBR and Buell people are not exactly putting bags over their heads because of WSBK. Here is what one of our Italian brethren decided to do.  Why do you think Yamaha are working 24 hours a day to perfect their next WSb weapon for 2015/16? If and that's a BIG if, they have a new machine in 2015 its a great place to get some press. AND not doing it makes them look like they CAN'T. |
