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Sir_wadsalot
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2014 - 10:09 am: | 
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*We have not said, when this bike will be ready for retail sales. The rest of this year, and next year, will be spent in N. America and Europe, doing customer rides, getting customer feedback, so we make sure we get it right.*
Ummm, that's BS executive media doublespeak for exactly what Froggy has said. It's a trailer demo bike, if over the next two years, all they hear is "where's the chrome?" "It's not loud enough.", and "It doesn't match my assless chaps.", they're not gonna build it.
At one point they "intended to sell" a bike with an air cooled inline four, as well.
Remember, this is the guy who took over HD in '09 having never ridden a motorcycle. His first act was to shut down "Erik's racing habit", as he called Buell.
He doesn't give a crap about bikes or moving the motorcycling industry forward. He's trying to make money. If he finds a way to bring in tons of new urban riders, he will try to get it into production. New urban riders aren't the ones showing up to HD events, it's the assless chaps crowd and their sons. If they hate it, or are ambivalent, the board isn't gonna sign off on it.
What did they do with the "new" bikes? Did they build a capable, modern standard? No way, Beavis- They build overweight, underpowered Indian built cruisers with water cooling. Almost 600lbs and 40hp? Yeah, awesome.
The other side of this is politics, all the while they'll be lobbying the government for subsidies or trying to move themselves into a carbon credits scam like Fiskar. Two years sounds like just about enough time to see if that will pan out.
I hope they D0 build it, I just don't have any faith in HD to do the right thing- ever. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2014 - 10:37 am: |
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Sir Wad,
Who knows what will happen but the inline 4 and other obscure Harley Museum pieces were never given a customer feedback tour.
They never got past the secret project stage and most of them were mud ugly. Here is a nice looking one though http://thekneeslider.com/harley-davidson-penster-t ilting-reverse-trike/
This Livewire project seems to be something they at least have enough faith in that we, the public, are going to actually be able to test ride and help them decide.
I'm seriously planning to buy an electric bike and it would be a Zero if they had any kind of dealer network but they are so far away at this point. Harley dealers are everywhere. Even EBR bikes are being sold withing 25 minutes of my home. Zero is 300+ miles away whether in Iowa or Kansas City. That is too far for warranty work. Warranty work is supposed to be free and that would be far from being free because of the travel. |
Buellerxt
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2014 - 01:29 pm: |
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Quote "Re electric vehicles of all types. It drives me nuts when these are referred to as "zero emission vehicles."
You're just moving the emission somewhere else."Unquote
Spot on Dr. Greg. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2014 - 06:47 pm: |
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But Dr. Greg should understand better than most that emissions from power plants are being regulated downward with coal plants being decommissioned or converted to natural gas, and then there is solar, geothermal, wind, hydropower, ect. Most families have two cars and one could probably be electric. I know that would be true with my family and one day soon it will be. Have two Prius right now but will be looking electric to replace the 2004. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2014 - 07:10 pm: |
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This certainly sounds like Harley is very serious about the electric future.
Mr. Matthew S. Levatich , 49
Pres of Harley-Davidson Motor Company and Chief Operating Officer of Harley-Davidson Motor Company
Mr Levatich said true growth will require common standards for rapid charging and other features, as well as places for people to plug in.
Harley expects to play a key role in developing electric vehicle standards, and its dealership network could provide charging stations to serve all drivers, he said.
'We've been very silent up to this point about our investment in EV technology,' Levatich said.
But, he added, 'now that we're public, and we're in this space, we expect to be involved and a part of leading the development of the standards, and the technology and the infrastructure necessary to further the acceptance and the utility of electric vehicles.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-266 6804/E-asy-rider-Harley-Davidson-takes-electric-mo torcycle-spin-fans-upset-environmentally-friendly- hog-quiet.html |
Buellerxt
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2014 - 08:25 pm: |
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Coal plants, CLEAN coal plants, are here to stay, thankfully, because coal is abundant in the U.S., great emission scrubbers have been designed and in place for years, it is very reasonably priced, it helps American industry competitiveness and doesn't burden industries with subsidy payments, and not utilizing coal in America is STUPIDITY. Wind? LOL Don't believe the wind company and greenie headlines of 'free' energy. It's a monumental lie. Without colossal subsidies and global warming fears/histeria wind would never be considered. The power can't be stored, it is mostly in non populated places, requires 100% back-up from a 'real' energy plant, in the 'best' cases it is only available 30% of the time, is hugely expensive, etc. Wow, Sweden uses it wind proponents say! Big deal. The countries that use it heavily don't have oil, natural gas, coal, and hydro in meaningful quantities. They HAVE TO look for expensive alternatives because they import nearly all of their energy. Thankfully, the U.S. has oil, natural gas, and coal in abundant quantities and technologies are constantly being developed to find more. Solar? Tiny. Good in very small, specific applications but a very small contributor..
Just curious, Electraglider, why the incessant need to mention that you have two Prius's? We've heard about them, ad nauseam. Do you feel owning them is of interest, or important, to us? If so, why? Again, just curious.
Harley is smart to get into electric bikes but the American market, and they understand it, will be tiny for a long time. As a company that sells motorcycles in a great many countries they need to be broadly based and diversified on their offerings.
(Message edited by buellerxt on June 25, 2014) |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 08:06 am: |
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I read somewhere recently that the only reason coal is there is because there was nothing evolved to break down trees that died and fell over, they just piled up. Once it is gone it is gone just like oil.
I mention the Prius cars because they are just about the most fuel efficient available. Just the fact that their engines shut off at stop signs keeps the air we breath cleaner. I think even Texans breath the same air as the rest of us.
Personally I hate wind mills. They kill countless birds and to me they look like hell.
If you think that the increasing CO2 percentage is a benign thing then you need to change news channels. Carbon dioxide may be a natural gas that we exhale but ask a submariner what happens when the content spikes. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 08:50 am: |
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With all due respect, anyone who thinks there is anything analogous to the submarine scenario and the planet wide burning of fossil fuels has a LOT to learn about physics and chemistry.
And you won't get that from sitting on your ass and watching television. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 10:25 am: |
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http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_i mpacts/science/CO2-and-global-warming-faq.html |
Alchemy
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 10:42 am: |
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The Prius is a great car and has proven the value of various technological approaches as I see it.
Yesterday I was stuck in traffic at 5 PM in the heat and humidity and right on my bumper me was a box truck just idling away & idling away & idling away as we sat dead still in the heat.
I use a Ford Plug-in hybrid and I was sitting in the same heat with no engine running and enjoying AC as we sat and sat and sat. On a bike I would have killed the engine of course but then the heat would still be coming off the engine for a bit.
EV technology is not perfect but it is very compelling when you notice over several months you are averaging over 100 MPG. Far better than my Buell but not nearly as much fun.
As I see it, hybrid vehicles have done well but they seem to have slowed improvements while ICE efficiency has gotten better for some driving uses. The plug-in hybrids on the other hand continue to get better by extending and enhancing the well proven hybrid tech IF you drive mostly shorter trips rather than a lot of long haul trips. Long haul tends to go to the hybrid.
For those of us with local nuclear power there is a significant reduction in overall emissions with these plug-in hybrids getting triple digit mileage. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 10:54 am: |
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http://green.autoblog.com/2014/06/26/brutus-v2-roc ket-electric-motorcycle-ready-for-pikes-peak/ |
Uly_man
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 12:10 pm: |
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Yeah the GREEN thing?
You want to make a BETTER WORLD then make less war, feed more people, talk less political crap and just help your fellow man. It is NOT that (crap) Star Trek rubbish just "old fashioned/ nature" respect for life. And while an electric bike may work well it is not going to save the planet. Grow up and look at the facts of how it works and even the physics of electrics and what is needed to make it work IE You have folk who can not even deal with the basic concept of a normal bike battery let alone a bike that is all electric.
Oh I bought an electric powered bike but I think the people who made it, and the bike, are rubbish because I can not find a place to PLUG IT IN while going through my local national park. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 12:34 pm: |
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I remember years ago when talking to these old Harley riders and how they would go on and on how Harley was crazy going to fuel injection. They complained that only carburetors could be tuned correctly for different pipes, air cleaners, cc increases, etc. Those same guys really had no clue and they sure changed their tune as time went by and the sky didn't fall.
Bikes will naturally evolve just like cars going hybrid and plugin, and to natural gas and fuel cells. Get used to it. I look forward to it. |
Uly_man
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 12:48 pm: |
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"I look forward to it". As do I in world sea shipping, air passenger and military electric transport systems? But then again I am into the "time slip" with NO control. |
Brighton
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 03:59 pm: |
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There are just too many ways to produce electricity and just not enough ways to produce fuel for ICE vehicles. And the maintenance requirements of EV vs ICE will probably be a great motivator.
You can rage against the tide all you want, but ICE vehicles are going away, the same way the horses and buggies went away. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 04:27 pm: |
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quote:Froggy,
You need to watch these videos of HOG top execs and listen to what they say and then you'll see that they have every intention of selling these electric bikes.
I've seen other videos where Harley employees are stating just the opposite. Either way, it is a good thing seeing more and more brands adopting electric power as the cost and practicality keeps improving. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 05:14 pm: |
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quote:There are just too many ways to produce electricity and just not enough ways to produce fuel for ICE vehicles.
In practice, that's not really true.
I can pass electricity through water and separate oxygen and hydrogen, and use that as ICE fuel. Tricky to store, but that's no more of a technical problem than trying to get battery density up to that level. At least not at the moment.
Likewise biofuels (perhaps some kind of hydrogen or hydrocarbon producing algee in circulating water farms) can be solar and renewable, but we probably don't have enough land to scale them up.
And on the other side, comparing like scale for like scale, there aren't many ways to produce electricity. To try and do it with wind, we would have to cover the state of Texas with wind farms, at a cost that is pretty much mathematically impossible, and some days there just isn't enough wind.
We can get hydroelectric, but again, there aren't enough dams and not enough rain falls to scale up to what ICE does today.
Solar? If you covered your entire suburban lot with solar (like 100%) and farmed and stored electricity every day, you could do a 50 mile or so commute. Just don't go on vacation, or try and deliver goods.
Coal, natural gas, and oil will work until we run out. It only works because we are going to spend 1000 years discharging a "battery" the planet spent several million years charging.
Nuclear is the only real option. Unless we can get to Jupiter and start harvesting liquid hydrogen. Or get close to the sun with some radical new solar technology and farm and return energy from there.
It's a really interesting problem. We have to conserve here, but step outside and look up, and there is an ongoing thermonculear explosion about 8 light seconds away from us that has been using more power every second than we as a planet will consume in a million years... it will run out in a billion or so short years from now.
Its a strange universe we live in.... |
Tootal
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 05:19 pm: |
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4% of our atmosphere is CO2. Of that 4% only 4% is man made. So 4% of 4% is what were talking about. The U.S. has regulated engines starting in the 1970's. Back in the 80's Motor Trend magazine showed what the comparison of pollution from a 1960's vehicle is to a 1980's vehicle. The graph they used was a bucket. The amount of pollution of the 80's car was merely a drop in that big bucket. Now it's 2014 and our vehicles pollute so little.
If you want to save the planet then get China and all the third world country's to stop polluting. And stop the deforestation of the Amazon Rain Forrest. These are the things that are really doing the harm.
I work in a power plant that burns coal. Our regulations are unreal but we do it. Clean coal is possible and we have a lot of it and it's cheap. This whole GREEN thing is a political agenda. Wind and solar are expensive so until we can find cheaper ways to make power we need to use what we have. If you shut down coal more people lose their jobs. Everybody's power bill is going up. That sounds really nice for an economy on the brink.
So drive your Prius. They are great cars and get 50 MPG. Cool! I've driven one that's owned by an 82 year old who is a tight wad! He loves his 50+ MPG. I put it through it's paces on a twisty road and it sucks! Everything is a compromise and what people want is always different but thank goodness I still live in the U.S. where I get to make that decision.  |
Buewulf
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 07:12 pm: |
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Please, guys, don't turn BB&D into the Quick Board! 
As far as H-D is concerned, I think they are dead serious. They are currently staffing an e-bike division (dust off your resume!), and the LiveWire is a highly finished bike - just look at the frame, components and body pieces. These aren't hand cobbled prototypes. I fully believe they are going to pull the trigger on this in the next couple of years, and the other big boys from Japan and Europe will likely respond. If Honda for example takes a shot at adapting an electric or hybrid drive system (they have a lot they can borrow from their auto division where the economies already exist) into a current chassis with minimal modifications, prices of these things could drop significantly. I really think a major player like H-D getting serious is the domino that will generate some real action in the e-bike world in the next 10 years or so.
The value proposition is still pretty low, but the newest electric motorcycles are finally viable for certain types of riders, few though they may be. I've ridden two Zeros - a 2011 and a 2013 - and the improvements made in that time are pretty drastic. I am seriously toying with the idea of getting a dual sport model because I think trail riding is the perfect application for an e-bike. Ultimately I probably won't buy it, but I am thinking about it. If the price were 2/3 of what it is now, I'd pull the trigger right now.
I find it very unlikely that electric vehicles are going to be replacing ICE technology anytime soon. The technological hurdles for batteries are proving to be quite monumental. It is amazing how little progress is made in that industry despite the important applications batteries have in a number of industries. Hopefully I am wrong and we will see some quantum leaps in battery tech during the next 20 years or so.
However, unless the government mandates that ICE vehicles have no more than a 100-mile range and require a 3-hour time out before being allowed to refuel with $20.00/gallon gasoline (hey, don't put any of that past them), the internal combustion engine will still be a prime-mover long after we are all gone. But I also think e-bikes will find a role to play along side our dino burners. |
Charlie_zulu
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 07:56 pm: |
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"If you want to save the planet then get China and all the third world country's to stop polluting. And stop the deforestation of the Amazon Rain Forrest. These are the things that are really doing the harm."
This ^^^
FERC has declared that some generating stations critical to grid stability cannot go offline when the new MATS rules go into effect 2015. MISO is forcasting as much as a 4 gigawatt shortage...
LBA's will be pulling their hair out when these new rules comes around..let's hope they come up with a commonsense solution. |
Brighton
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 08:53 pm: |
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I think that the level of EV tech is at about the same place now that dino fueled vehicles were when Harley and the Davidsons started selling motorcycles.
I think we'll see charging tech and battery tech standardize so that quick-swap battery stations will be everywhere, just like gas stations are now. Elon Musk recently opened many of Tesla's electric car patents for 'good faith' use, with the goal of getting the big auto makers more committed.
Perhaps we'll see some vehicles powered by alternatives such as hydrogen and biofuel as Reepicheep posted. But I think EV already has too big a lead. Electricity is already available _everywhere_. Maybe not enough to change over en-masse to EV, but that is just a scaling problem, just as gasoline once faced. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2014 - 10:14 am: |
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Watch the video. The gal really liked it.
http://www.jsonline.com/business/harley-davidson-g ives-limited-peek-of-prototype-b99300049z1-2648396 41.html |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2014 - 10:25 am: |
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Mission Motors purportedly designed the Livewire driveline. http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/811/18733/Motorcycle -Article/Backmarker--H-D-LiveWire-Launch---First-R ide.aspx |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2014 - 09:09 am: |
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http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2014/06/ 27/ceo-keith-wandell-harley-davidson-focuses-on.ht ml |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2014 - 10:07 am: |
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Keith Wandell is as full of shit as a christmas goose. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2014 - 11:00 am: |
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quote:The motorcycle isn’t for sale just yet because the company wants to get as much customer feedback as it can by taking it on a 30-destination tour across the U.S.
Hahahahahah.
quote:But having Harley supporting a technology also helps to legitimize it within the industry
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!
 |
Froggy
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2014 - 03:47 pm: |
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I hate to bump this thread, but I saw this and felt it belonged here 
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Brighton
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2014 - 03:56 pm: |
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High-efficiency ‘free piston’ no-crankshaft combustion engine:
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/185789-toyota-d evelops-high-efficiency-free-piston-no-crankshaft- combustion-engine-to-power-an-ev |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2014 - 07:02 pm: |
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Check this out. Guy built his own electric bike. http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5885-nem0-electric- dual-sport-motorcycle?page=1 |
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