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Doberdann1019
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 01:45 pm: | 
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Let me start out by saying I am new to this forum. I have been on buellXB.com but thought I would bring my troubles here for other opinions. Sorry this is such a long post, but I figured I would give all the info I have.
(2009 XB12Ss with Drummer SS exhaust, stock ECM un-tuned)
I have been having some issues with my bike for about the past year. Here are the current symptoms:
- When I start the bike cold, it takes about a minute for RPMs to settle out and after about 3 to 4 minutes sometimes RPMs will become unstable again, ranging from about 750 to 1500 RPM.
- Once I start accelerating, it rides very "choppy" and feel like I'm repeatedly hitting the brake.
- While cruising at 3000 RPMs, constant speed and holding the throttle steady, RPMs will drop. Usually, if I do nothing, RPMs will drop to about 2000 then rise back up to 3000 quickly (jerking the bike forward). Sometimes I will pull in the clutch and RPMs will almost immediately jump back up to 3000, and if I rev the throttle they will stop falling.
- Most of the time once the bike warms up, the issues seem to go away while cruising, but as soon as I slow down or have to accelerate they come back.
And a history of my issue:
April 2013 - I got the bike from a friend and it was having similar symptoms for him. I think the issues originally started summer 2011. He was the original owner, had Harley do all his work and never messed with tuning. All he had done as far as mods go is installing a K&N air filter and the Drummer SS exhaust with about 3000 miles on the bike (currently has ~16,000 miles). He brought the bike to Harley and they could not figure it out. He found that it seemed to go away when he added HEET to his fuel. When he sold it to me, it rarely acted up and I continued to add HEET to the fuel.
Fall 2013 - The problem gradually became worse and through the help of BuellXB.com, I found the wire of the engine temperature sensor was worn down to copper and replaced the sensor (myself). I took the bike out for a long ride and had no issues. All seemed good. Shortly after (~75-ish miles) the issues came back and I tried using HEET again but it did not seem to do anything and I stopped early last fall. I was also looking into fuel pump issues but never perused it. Winter came and I gave up for a few months.
Spring 2014 - I replaced the spark plugs, changed the oil, replaced the TPS, got a check engine light code 13, rear O2, replaced the O2 sensor and replaced spark plugs again. After that it ran great the first time out, then started to show its normal symptoms again.
Here is a list of the maintenance I have done since owning the bike (I bought it April 2013):
6/19/14 - 16XXX miles - Check engine light come on following previous spark plug replacement, code "AMC Stuck Open". Used ECM Droid to disable AMC/interactive exhaust
6/9/14 - 16372 miles - Replace spark plugs; removed 10R12X, installed NGK DCPR9EIX (2316) gapped to 0.035"
5/29/14 - 16190 miles - Fixed positive battery wire, added extension to relieve stress on smaller wires
5/6/14 - 15876 miles - Replace spark plugs; removed 10R12X fouled from bad O2 sensor causing poor air-fuel mixture, installed 10R12X gapped to 0.035" per service manual
5/1/14 - 15876 miles - Replace O2 sensor, bike would not start after
4/13/14 - 15870 miles - Check engine light came on, "Broken pipe" displayed on ECM Droid, checked codes again and code 13, "Rear O2 inactive" displayed in stored codes
4/13/14 - 15869 miles - Replaced Throttle Position Sensor and recalibrate, finished at 4.2°
4/11/14 - 15869 miles - Cleaned Intake Air Control Sensor
3/25/14 - 15861 miles - Oil change; Royal Purple Max Life 20W50, used Helicoil thread insert for damaged threads.
3/9/14 - 15861 miles - Replace spark plugs; removed 10R12A with 0.04-0.045" gap, installed 10R12X gapped to 0.035" per service manual
10/16/13 - ~15800 miles - Replace engine temperature sensor
I am tempted to buy the EBR ECM for the Drummer SS, thinking that maybe my fuel map is messed up somewhere. Other ideas have been getting rid of the Duralast TPS for an OEM one, replacing the IAC and flashing stock fuel map back onto stock ECM (which I do not know how to do). Also considering possible fuel pump issues.
Finally, here is one of many threads I have at buellxb.com on this problem: http://www.buellxb.com/Buell-XB-Forum/Buell-Lightning-XB12S-XB12Ss-CityX-XB12Scg/XB-Operating-Conditions
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
} |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 05:33 pm: |
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I have an 09 uly. I'm using the Duralast TPS part# TPS4129, Inlet air temp sensor part# WT3050, Bosh o2 sensor part#12014 with no issues.Don't use dieletric grease on o2 connector. I would use NGK Iridium DCPR8EIX instead of the 9's. my bike runs better after trial and error testing. Dumb question {not such thing as a dumb question}Use 91 or better for fuel octane.Reset adaptive fuel value let bike idle for 10 minutes then test ride.If this dosn't work and no codes I would check throttle body intake seals with propane or wd40 method. Youtube procedure or follow service manual.Are the plug wire and coil pack good.Did you clean throttle body both sides of throttle butterfly. Change IAC {Idle air control O ring. Clean inlet air temp sensor. I use OEM exhaust so I can't help with ECM maps etc.. for after market exhaust. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 07:03 pm: |
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Wandering idle and power dropping off and surging back at steady throttle are classic symptoms of a lean mixture. Were it a tuber, I would advise changing the intake manifold seals before doing anything else. The XB's don't seem to have that happen as often, but as Gduck says, check the intake manifold gaskets for leakage.
If all is good there, then time to look at why a lean mixture. Idle air control is a good place to look next.
In any case, the non-standard exh should not cause this sort of issue. I believe something else is amiss. Doesn't mean a proper ecu map wouln't help, but that should be something to do after fixing the current problem.
Hope this helps, Dave |
Hogs
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 08:21 pm: |
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GAbby Duck when ya say " Reset adaptive fuel value " How do you do that on a 2009 model year? Thanks |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 09:36 pm: |
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Hogs you are correct,I mean reset learned Fuel values to factory default.Thank you for pointing this error of words which can be missleading. |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 09:58 pm: |
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Hogs I use CMI Lite which can be purchased from EBR $149.00. Easy to use portable can be used on DDFI,DDFI-2B,DDFI-2C,DDFI-3.plug in read trouble codes historic and present,clear the codes,TPS resets,Idle setscrew and reset learned fuel values etc... prior too 2008-2010 models, also for 1125 models. I had an issue that even after a repair a learned fuel value reset was needed.the bike wouldn't idle for more than 8 sec only after the reset that I could run the bike.This was cause from the bike learned fuel values from the old defective sensor. |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 10:01 pm: |
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CMI good for xb and 1125 2008-2010 |
Hogs
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2014 - 11:38 pm: |
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YuP " the bike wouldn't idle for more than 8 sec only after the reset that I could run the bike.This was cause from the bike learned fuel values from the old defective sensor. "
That is what I was thinking just the other day..That IF one had a problem with weird shit going on etc.. And finally after 2 or 3oo miles say ...and then replaces the bad sensor...Even after that IF one Could Not reset the Learned Values..The Bike would maybe not even Run, Or very Bad...Unless one could Reset the learned Bad Values it learned while receiving or not getting any info. Bad sensor or whatever
.etc... Makes sense. Thanks
So that unit works on all Xbs from 2003 to 2010 plus the 1125s.
 |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 08:29 am: |
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http://www.intelligentdesignsolutionsinc.com/20012 4_a.pdf |
Hogs
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 08:57 am: |
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Thanks Gabby,
So guess when it says sets Learned values back to Stock..This will work or are the Learned values stock different than what one gets when they installed a EBR Ecm Would ya know they have both the stock Default Learned values.. ( EBR ecms and the Stock Factory ECMs ).IF this makes any sense to ya??? |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 10:18 am: |
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CDI will not change your ECM firm ware.It would only clear the learned adaptive fuel values back to the ecm's base values.when you restart the bike and let it Idle for 10 minutes this helps the ecm relearn from all the sensors and will change the adaptive fuel values.Adaptive fuel value is always changing per your enviroment, like air temps altitude your your sensor inputs to the ecm, So I guess what your asking would it change a ebr to a stock ecm answer is know.IT would be like day one of your new stock or EBR ECM what ever ecm you have to like new readings.There other guys out here who tune that can explain this better.anyway the cdi won't screw you up. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 10:38 am: |
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Geesh IDS, spend the $4 for an LCD and a couple of buttons already. You spent $10 on that silicone potting goo.
I can't remember, did we confirm that ECMDroid works on the EBR ECM's for the basic stuff (TPS / AFV / diagnostic tests)? I know it won't handle the fuel map rewriting without corrupting things.
ECM Droid with a sub $50 bluetooth adapter (and of course an Android device like a Nexus 7 or something) is a pretty nice setup. |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 10:56 am: |
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IDS has no buttons and dosn't program or change your fuel maps. Its a quicker way of getting things done so you can ride and not be stuck with a poor or non running bike. I do Like your input if we can get people with issues riding with less expense.I'm only giving info that got me out of the garage and back on the street riding. Check out link above this comment. |
Hogs
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 11:41 am: |
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Reepicheep, Are there any links to this ECM Droid you talk about here that are good for the 2008 and up model years? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 02:40 pm: |
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Paging Froggy for compatibility question!
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org. ecmdroid
There is a thread here about building the bluetooth modem, it's straightforward, and XOpti sells them already made I think.
You will need an android phone or tablet. The Nexus 7 is a dandy little tablet for $200 or so. Some of the $100 android tablets might work as well, I think I did it with an HP slate (an unimpressive but cheap android tablet), I can double check if it's important to anyone. |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 03:50 pm: |
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I'M game Reepicheep by the way Doberdan we are still waiting for feed back on your problem. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2014 - 06:33 pm: |
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I just got a Bluetooth dongle so I will be testing ecmdroid soon. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2014 - 07:50 am: |
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Here are a couple nice threads discussing it:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/406 2/736624.html?1398210720
http://www.ecmspy.com/btwireless2.shtml
If you get that unit from amazon, you don't have to configure anything on the modem after you wire it up. It's a neat little device, I'm going to integrate it into another project I'm doing. |
Doberdann1019
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2014 - 11:45 pm: |
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Thanks for all the replys! I was away for the weekend and just got home and its pretty late so I will read through all this to in the morning and respond. |
Doberdann1019
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 07:52 am: |
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I have an 09 uly. I'm using the Duralast TPS part# TPS4129, Inlet air temp sensor part# WT3050, Bosh o2 sensor part#12014 with no issues.Don't use dieletric grease on o2 connector. I would use NGK Iridium DCPR8EIX instead of the 9's. my bike runs better after trial and error testing. Dumb question {not such thing as a dumb questionUse 91 or better for fuel octane.Reset adaptive fuel value let bike idle for 10 minutes then test ride.If this dosn't work and no codes I would check throttle body intake seals with propane or wd40 method. Youtube procedure or follow service manual.Are the plug wire and coil pack good.Did you clean throttle body both sides of throttle butterfly. Change IAC {Idle air control O ring. Clean inlet air temp sensor. I use OEM exhaust so I can't help with ECM maps etc.. for after market exhaust.
Gabby Duck -
it's good to know those aftermarket sensors are all working with no issues.
About the plugs, I can try to 8's next but I thought that the 9's were better for the hot air cooled engine. I think the terminal of the 8's have more surface area to hold heat longer, is this correct?
For gas, I have only ever used 91 octane non-ethanol and so did the previous owner.
I can resent the AFV, I believe I can do it through ECM Droid, is it set to 100 stock?
I did check the throttle body intake seals a couple weeks ago with Brakleen, but I will do it again with propane. The gas should be better at finding any small leaks.
I actually have some new plug wires being shipped. The rear one is a little beat up. It clips on the plug but is a little loose. They should be here by Wednesday. How can I tell if the coil pack is good?
I have not cleaned the underside of the throttle butterfly, changed the IAC o-ring or cleaned inlet air temp sensor. I will do all this this week.
Wandering idle and power dropping off and surging back at steady throttle are classic symptoms of a lean mixture. Were it a tuber, I would advise changing the intake manifold seals before doing anything else. The XB's don't seem to have that happen as often, but as Gduck says, check the intake manifold gaskets for leakage.
If all is good there, then time to look at why a lean mixture. Idle air control is a good place to look next.
In any case, the non-standard exh should not cause this sort of issue. I believe something else is amiss. Doesn't mean a proper ecu map wouln't help, but that should be something to do after fixing the current problem.
Hope this helps, Dave
Dave -
If I remember, my old plugs were showing a lean mix too. I'll definitely take a second look at my intake seals this afternoon. If that checks out I think I will try cleaning some of the things Gabby mentioned then order a new IAC all together if the o-ring looks good. |
Hogs
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 08:57 am: |
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Any Cross reference for 2009 Fuel Pumps and where to get them,,...Need one that is Good , well atleast as good as the Stock one,( or should I say better than) without the HUGE price tag..Just the pump alone??? anyone ? Thanks |
Doberdann1019
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 10:26 am: |
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This is from buellxb.com:
2003 v6 mustang fuel pump kit:
Autozone Part Number: E2366 (~$110.00)
I personally have not done/tried it
http://www.buellxb.com/Buell-XB-Forum/Buell-Firebo lt-XB12-XB9/DIY-Fuel-pump-fix.-Cheaper-than-replac ement-from-HD
(Message edited by doberdann1019 on June 23, 2014) |
Hogs
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 12:56 pm: |
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Thanks Doberdann1019...
However I think those are good for years 2003 till 2007... My understanding is 2008 and 2009,2010 are different pumps for some reason or not..If I am wrong could someone say different, with what experience they had ,with the newer years? Thanks again... |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 05:14 pm: |
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I live in florida and have been in the mountains (blue ridge park way {mount michelle ALT 6000'. Temps from 30deg to 90deg plus no issues.But I would try and judge..035 gap. |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 05:30 pm: |
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HOGS I just checked 09 and 06 service ULY Manuals all XBs have same exact fuel pump specs:49PSI 13.2 volts 60 LPH @ 45 PSI 6.0 AMPs. 03 mustang v6 part #E2061 at Autozone. XB fuel pump OEM MFG is Walbro #521 |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2014 - 07:39 pm: |
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http://www.buellxb.com/Buell-XB-Forum/Buell-Ulysse s-XB12x/XB12X-fuel-pump-failure |
Doberdann1019
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 09:04 am: |
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Sorry I have not had any updates in a while, I just moved and got a puppy so life has been crazy..
Last night I reset the AFV to 100% then let the bike idle for 10 minutes. Before resetting it, it was 89%. It idled pretty steady, and only once or twice made noticeable jumps in RPM, normal idle was about 1050 to 1100.
Then I got some propane and sprayed around the intake seals, I did not see any signs of in-leakage.
I rode about 25 miles and the bike ran pretty good. Only once after about 10 miles did the RPM drop symptom show up (at around 40mph) and it did not act up again.
Tonight I am hoping to have time to replace the spark plug wires. The rear wire is pretty worn and a loose.
(Message edited by doberdann1019 on July 01, 2014) |
Gabby_duck
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2014 - 05:19 pm: |
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Have you tried those DCPR8EIX get the Non Iridium DCPR8 first to test the performance and save $$ then upgrade to Iridums if you like them {.035 Gap }Clean the throttle body both sides of the throttle plate with a clean white Tee shirt or lint free cloth use carb cleaner.{engine off} Remove the IAC and clean the IAC port with same. Allow a little time for cleaner to evaporate. You may have a little trouble starting after the above procedure {normal}also clean your Inlet air sensor with mass air flow cleaner,allow 30 minutes for cleaner to evaporate off the sensor.I will assume you are using 91 or above octane fuel. |
Doberdann1019
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2014 - 07:26 am: |
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Have you tried those DCPR8EIX get the Non Iridium DCPR8 first to test the performance and save $$ then upgrade to Iridums if you like them (.035 Gap) Clean the throttle body both sides of the throttle plate with a clean white Tee shirt or lint free cloth use carb cleaner.(engine off) Remove the IAC and clean the IAC port with same. Allow a little time for cleaner to evaporate. You may have a little trouble starting after the above procedure (normal)also clean your Inlet air sensor with mass air flow cleaner,allow 30 minutes for cleaner to evaporate off the sensor.I will assume you are using 91 or above octane fuel.
I have not tried the DCPR8EIX yet, I plan to but the DCPR9EIX I just installed don't even have 100 miles on them. I will order some 8's though so I have them. I am using only 91 non-ethanol gas. Here is my plan moving forward:
- Replace spark plug wires
- Clean throttle plate
- Clean IAC and change o-ring
- Clean inlet air temp sensor
- Clean air filter
I am taking a long weekend so hopefully I have time to do this soon. I am tempted to do one thing at a time to try and figure out what the actual problem is, but I will probably do it all at once to save time and get the thing running. I also have to squeeze in a NYS inspection which is now expired (oops).
If none of this fixes it, I think a new IAC motor and/or ignition coil might be my next target. |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2014 - 04:36 pm: |
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Just another dumb question ,- i have'nt read through all the posts - Have you checked your fuel pressure regulator??
Golden rule to fault diagnosis - always only make one change at a time! |
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