| Author | Message | ||
     Crusty |
Interesting article. | ||
| Gregtonn |
Then they have no business dicking around as boys in a man's game. Again, an ignorant statement. I could tell many stories. G | ||
| Rsh |
Classax, Were you the guy that said you had your 1190RX to 177mph and you weigh almost 250lbs ? Cycle Worlds 1190RX test bike was no where close to your bikes supposed speed. PERFORMANCE 1/4 MILE 10.12 sec. @ 140.29 mph 0-30 MPH 1.2 sec. 0-60 MPH 2.6 sec. 0-90 MPH 4.4 sec. 0-100 MPH 5.3 sec. TOP GEAR TIME 40-60 MPH 3.7 sec. 60-80 MPH 3.4 sec. 3.4 sec. TOP MEASURED SPEED 167 mph HORSEPOWER 161.2 hp @ 10,530 rpm TORQUE 87.1 lb.-ft. @ 8100 rpm BRAKING DIST FROM 30 MPH 30 ft. FROM 60 MPH 127 ft. Geoff's interview pretty much explains what's going on. The WSBK RX motor is basically stock. If Cycle Worlds measurements are typical of what the RX's real world performance is, and with the limited mod's the WSBK EBR's are running, it's no wonder why they are down on speed. | ||
| Jens |
When we learned that EBR goes WSBK we said wow, HERO must given AVL an development order for an V4 or an IL 3, because that old dog Rotax don't have the potential to go top 10 on WSBK level. Chassis is great -needs a progressive lever System at the rear shock, Brake have the potential, Electronic must be developed and engine need to go. That way the WSBK engagement make sense on the long run. If there is no engine in the pipeline its wasted resourches. (Message edited by Jens on June 22, 2014) | ||
| Stevel |
Geoff's interview was somewhat informative, but he disclosed nothing we did not already know. From a motor builder's perspective, it would be very helpful if Geoff stated the specific engine failures he has experienced, but it doesn't appear that info will be made public. Lastly, although suspected, he confirmed the lack of race specific parts being available. I don't understand this, as several parts were aftermarket and custom race specific for the 1125rr and 1190RS. Most all of those parts could be used in the RX. I know they exist, as I have had them in my hands. So I am sure there is a story here. | ||
| Neutrum |
race 1: both riders out of race due to technical problems - seems to be blown engines.... | ||
| Jens |
Let's hope they get the bikes fixed for race 2. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Cycle Worlds 1190RX test bike was no where close to your bikes supposed speed. PERFORMANCE ... TOP MEASURED SPEED 167 mph Cycle World tested their bike at the Spring Mountain track near Las Vegas. No doubt the top speed was limited by the length of the straightaway. Their rider had to start braking for a turn before the true top speed was achieved. I tried comparing the track map at the Cycle World article to Sp;ring Mountain's alliterative course arrangements, but I can't match the 2 up, so I don't know how long the actual straightaway was. Classax on the other hand probably was able to truly peg the bike out on a straightaway of several miles length. | ||
| Hughlysses |
SPOILER ALERT Looks like Aaron was unable to start race 2, and Geoff had another DNF.  | ||
| Neutrum |
race 2: yates not started, may with engine failure out in lap 17.... oh wow... | ||
| Reepicheep |
And what does rider weight have to do with top speed? | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
great weekend for EBR... so 2/2 DNF in race one and 1/2 DNS, 1/2 DNF for race two So they are down on power because they use a stock motor - why not have race parts? I mean, are the other teams running stock motors? Im assuming not (but could be wrong), so why dont they? I'd love to hear EBs comments on all of this WSBK nonsense And May SHOULD feel embarrassed by the teams this season, it is really embarrassing. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"And what does rider weight have to do with top speed?" A larger man isnt as aerodynamic, and it'll take more power to achieve the same top speed, when when talking about stock bikes isnt an option. Just my thoughts | ||
| Classax |
Yes I am. #105 made 165.8 rwhp and 177 was on a run in "meyheco" Texas at near sea level. Had more to go but ran out of courage. Too much wild life along the sides of the road. Fastest down the mini straight at GSS, 138 MSRH, 168 down back straight TWS, 174 main straight NOLA 165 main straight Road America 158 main straight (first time there) Jennings 149 first time there also. What I will say is the bike continues to break in until about 2k miles. I will also say it requires a solid hard drive from the very bottom. Trying to wind it out from the middle gears has you out of revs pretty quick, unless you have a lot of room. A lot of turns you can pull from 2nd or even 3rd but your best drive is to drop it to first and row the gears. It rewards you for shifting, even though you don't have to. I have no problems against anyone on the street in terms of power or topend, but there's a S1KRR that gives me fits on track. The motor on that thing... mahn! Of course there are guys who are just plain faster than me, regardless of what they ride. | ||
| Classax |
If they did blow engines May would start any races from the pits, pretty much from now on. I don't know to many stock engines that survive very long running 1k over redline. We tend to use words like embarrassing somewhat loosely. In my volunteer work with troubled youth as a minister, we avoid belittling someone else's failed efforts and focus on what actions are needed to correct the future. We do so because quite often under the same circumstances it is likely we could do no better and more than likely much worse. Its appropriate to agree once the principles confess their convictions about it. I'm glad the team is fighting to improve but can admit its not a good showing thus far. | ||
| Hughlysses |
The only way I can see that EBR has willingly proceeded in this fashion is that Hero wanted it that way. I don't think anyone here doubts that there are some very smart engineers at EBR. Erik and others at EBR HAD to know what a mountain they faced in trying to race a near-stock V-twin in WSBK. Surely they cautioned Hero about what kind of results they should expect, and Hero must have said "do it anyway". EBR could have refused, but they didn't and I have to assume they had good reasons for proceeding. My guess is the EBR engineering team has been working full-tilt on street bikes with little or no time for race parts development and EBR knew this would be the situation when they went WSBK racing. Whatever the reason for their current situation, from what we know about Erik we KNOW he has a plan for dealing with it. EBR's staff has apparently been steadily growing over the last year. As EBR hires more people and/or as street bike development slows hopefully they'll be able to devote major resources to race development. Perhaps they've already got a design on the boards for a new platform specifically aimed at competing in WSBK. Maybe we'll even find out in October. Meanwhile, Geoff and Aaron have to do the best they can with a motorcycle which is obviously not up to the task. | ||
| Trojan |
We’re still running stock pistons, stock rods, and even stock cams. The Ducati also uses stock rods and pistons (As the rules dictate for twin cylinder machines). Ducati had to make their stock rods from titanium so they could race reliably with the Panigale in WSB in the first place as they are not allowed to use aftermarket rods, so EBR should do the same. {\iEBR is a small company trying to go up against the world} Maybe this public humiliation just isn't the way to do it yet? | ||
| Ffbuell1 |
Yes another embarrassing showing in WSb. I would hope all these blown engines would lead to a massive redevelopment of either the whole engine or most of the parts that are failing' And to counter what some have said about whether racing success sells bikes or not, I can certainly say that constant d.n.f.s sure as hell do not sell them. | ||
| Neutrum |
"If they did blow engines May would start any races from the pits, pretty much from now on" he already did, both races... | ||
| Trojan |
My guess is the EBR engineering team has been working full-tilt on street bikes with little or no time for race parts development and EBR knew this would be the situation when they went WSBK racing. So what is to stop the team developing race parts themselves? Most teams do and the Honda and Suzuki teams are pretty much all privately developed away from the factory. Personally i think the fault lies with the team rather than the factory (although the bike plainly isn't up to WSB standards just yet anyway). The team seems to be made up of personnel from the Italian Superbike series, the gulf between that and WSB is huge. Maybe they thought they would be given a competitive package straight away or maybe they have just failed to gel with the bike, but they should have been developing parts and strategies long before now. The ECU really isn't an argument as they have clever people at Marelli who can pretty much tailor the systme to any bike quite quickly. if the electronics are making the bike fail then I would again lay the blame at the feet of the team  if this was football someone would be sacked by now and the post mortem would have begun | ||
| Hughlysses |
Team press release: http://us5.campaign-archive2.com/?u=b1964295d7f155 fa8c439a200&id=fa218cc1d3 Apparently Geoff lost the clutch in the first race. They don't say what Aaron's problem was in race 1 but it couldn't be fixed by race 2. Geoff says he deliberately retired in race 2 to prevent interfering with the leaders but I'm not clear on whether the bike actually suffered a failure or not. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Lastly, although suspected, he confirmed the lack of race specific parts being available. I don't understand this, as several parts were aftermarket and custom race specific for the 1125rr and 1190RS. Most all of those parts could be used in the RX. I know they exist, as I have had them in my hands. So I am sure there is a story here. Because the 'race parts' have to be the stock parts as fitted to the homologated production bikes which are for sale in showrooms. If the bike raced doesn't have the parts as 'stock' they're not allowed. A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE RULES AT WORK AS ARGUED OTHERWISE THIS WEEK BY SOME HERE! Rocket in England | ||
| Hughlysses |
Rocket- The other teams don't run stock engines in WSBK (non-EVO class). Otherwise, what's the point in the EVO class? | ||
| Rodrob |
Race parts? Like what? Hi strength, light rods and pistons? Lightened crank? Special degree-able, race profile cams? Valves are already Ti. I'm curious. Be specific. | ||
| Fast1075 |
I am quite sure the RX cams are not the same as the RS cams, if they are STOCK cams. The engine info for the RX says the intake cams have offset opening numbers to create the "swirl" in the combustion chamber. Geoff says they hope to be able to increase the rev limit from 11,800 to 12,800 with new parts. That seems to imply that they have a grip on the problem, or at least a direction to go. It will definitely require improved parts. The mean average piston speed will approach the 6,000 fpm range. Who builds the stock rods and pistons? What is the rod length? Carillo can CNC rods straight from a CAD file. Maybe involve Mahle America. Almost any problem is solvable. I used to race bike engines designed for 70 hp, that made over 250 hp. (ok, in run times of under 9 seconds at full throttle)with the use of good reciprocating parts. It would seem to me that since the rules state that the rods have to match the drawing and be made of similar material (what does similar mean?) You could have a stronger rod made that fits the bill, issue a service bulletin obsoleting the existing rods and substitute the new part number as OEM production. Of course it would be easier to have speced Ti rods as OEM, and under the rules used less expensive rods for production machines. Who knows, maybe they did. | ||
| Rodrob |
Since the RX and RS have exactly the same bore, stroke, same crank dimensions and very similar head and valve configuration (the cams are different but only significantly on the intake side as I understand it), the parts of which you speak already exist in the RS. Draw whatever conclusion you wish. | ||
| Sparky |
I think the BeInSp announcer said that Aaron's bike looked like it was overheating when it retired. Whether this was confirmed or not, they didn't say. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Rocket- The other teams don't run stock engines in WSBK Because they went through with homologation. Otherwise what's the point in building the limited run production specials available for sale to the public. FFS what's it gonna take  Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
The EBR doesn't run in the EVO class so of course they are allowed quite a few engine modifications that EVO bikes are not. However as a twin cylinder machine the EBR is limited to using stock conrods and some other engine internals. Cylinder heads and cams can be worked on and changed I think on non evo bikes. It could unfortunately be that the engine just isn't up to the rigours of WSB when tuned to over 200bhp (which is the sort of numbers you need to be competitive). The Helicon engine is now quite an old design after all, despite the etra work and capacity that EBR have upgraded it with. The same is true of the KTM RC8R and Aprilia RSV twin cylinder engines, which is why nobody uses them in WSb any more. Maybe Erik needs to persuade Hero to invest in a V4 pronto if they want to stay in WSB  | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
However as a twin cylinder machine the EBR is limited to using stock conrods and some other engine internals. Which as Matt explained previously in the case of Ducati. The for sale production bike is homologated with 'the fancy parts as raced' which is what EBR need do if they want the same. What I don't get (not, not understand) is EBR claim their race bike is the bike they've brought to the production line for road use. Surely EBR must have known in its current racing form their bike was never going to be up to WSBK ability, so why didn't they fancy up the parts, ala Ducati, instead of taking a very risky punt. Rocket in England |
