| Author | Message | ||
     Neutrum |
savary burned his mv, that was one cause for the red flag...the other one was yates with a blown engine spilling oil over the track. 1 engine left for yates.... (Message edited by Neutrum on June 20, 2014) | ||
| Fast1075 |
The first red flag was from the MV. The post said the second red flag was from the EBR. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
according to some this is fine and erik is happyjust being in wsbk... | ||
| Reepicheep |
Being willing to try, willing to risk failing, and learning from the result is different then being happy to fail. Likewise, there are those of us saying that being in WSBK and qualifying is better than not being in WSBK at all, even if you know you will likely spend the first season at the bottom of the pack. How does their "red flag" performance compare to other makes? Is the EBR team disproportionately disrupting the series more than other brands? | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
running at the back of the pack would be an improvement if both bikes can start and FINISH a race | ||
| Trojan |
Is the EBR team disproportionately disrupting the series more than other brands? I think EBR lead MV 2-1 in red flag causes at the moment. As far as I know nobody else is on the score sheet yet (a bit like the England football team!) | ||
| Reepicheep |
I watched the US win from a small pub in Woodstock on Monday. Even in it's native environment, with a good pint in front of me, watching soccer is still like watching paint dry. ( No offense intended.  ) | ||
| Trojan |
Is the EBR team disproportionately disrupting the series more than other brands? I wholeheartedly agree. I hate football (soccer), so TV at the moment over here really is pants! celebrity cooking and football! Never could see the point of 22 grown men kicking a pigs bladder around for 90 minutes. However if you want to be REALLY bored then there is always cricket (or 4 hours of American football!- I'll take the highlights show thanks) Thank god for BT Sport and Eurosport I waas hoping that with England knocked out early we'd get less soccer but no, we now have the post mortem as well  | ||
| Jens |
Somebody need to tell Erik that he must set up a Testteam. WSBK is not a Test and Development Platform.  | ||
| Jscott |
^Total agreement Jens, but many here would vehemently disagree. On the upside both were able to run in FP3 and FP4. FP4 - Yates 26 and May 28 | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Somebody need to tell Erik that he must set up a Testteam. WSBK is not a Test and Development Platform.  I've have, a few times in this topic Jens! Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
Somebody need to tell Erik that he must set up a Testteam. WSBK is not a Test and Development Platform. +1 | ||
| Reepicheep |
I think if they can qualify, they can race, and while there doesn't seem to be much visible progress, I don't know what is going on behind the scenes. Even I however would draw the line if the bikes can't hold together well enough to avoid being a disruption to the series. If I understood Matt correctly, right now they have 2 events for the season (one above Aprilla, who has one). If they have another race or practice disrupting event or two, then even I would agree they should withdraw from the series to avoid disrupting it for the other competitors. Three events, two more than the nearest other team, then maybe they should withdraw. Four events, three more than the nearest other team, then they should absolutely withdraw. IMHO. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ +1. Again, considering that the EBR WSBK bikes are running slower, if anything, than their AMA Superbikes, it's a mystery to me that they seem to be having many more engine problems in WSBK than they have had in AMA. | ||
| Ffbuell1 |
(Some body needs to tell Erik he needs to set up a test team), yes it seems we all know that but by seeing these results (or lack thereof) it seems they do not do any testing of significance, even their results in A.M.A. are going backward's I at this point have decided to purchase the KTM 1290 Superduke because I am afraid of engine issues on the E.B.R. (who says racing or the lack of good results don't sell or cause someone to look at another brand. | ||
| Fast1075 |
I have now a new perspective on SBK '14. It is fun to watch the Aprilia with their enormous speed, the Ducati so much improved, and Tom Sykes cruising thru the pack like a Barracuda to conserve his tires until a few laps from the end, to storm to the front with authority (unless someone crashes him out). But EBR is not the only team to toast engines. MV and Suzuki have put on some magnificent displays of fire and smoke themselves. I simply can't imagine how this continues. The bad press is enormous. It is either one of two things. The engines they are using are fundamentally different from the RS engines with some inherent weakness that is "new", OR the race team is incompetent. I keep seeing in my head the Amsoil commercial were Erik talks about what appeared to be a crankshaft problem was solved by the Amsoil engineers. Maybe there is a crankshaft problem. Burning questions that make me think about the days when I did TTD for Honda, but that is a different tale. If you honestly believe the engine failures and fires will not affect EBR in sales and consumer interest, you are delusional. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I simply can't imagine how this continues. The bad press is enormous. It is either one of two things. The engines they are using are fundamentally different from the RS engines with some inherent weakness that is "new", OR the race team is incompetent. +1 to this. There was some speculation in this thread that the electronics (which are different from the AMA) could be causing the issues. If the team is having difficulty tuning the electronics package to the engine, you could have not only poor performance, but lean fueling issues, over-revving, ignition advance problems, etc. any which could lead to engine failures. | ||
| Rsh |
Unfortunately, other than Chris Clark on the Factory Yosh Suzuki, The EBR's in AMA are the poorest performing Factory team. Typically off the pace by 4 or more seconds, the 1190 is marginal in AMA and is completely out classed in WSBK. | ||
| Gregtonn |
...electronics (which are different from the AMA) could be causing the issues. If the team is having difficulty tuning the electronics package to the engine, you could have not only poor performance, but lean fueling issues, over-revving, ignition advance problems, etc. any which could lead to engine failures. Glad to know somebody was listening. Lets hope they can get things sorted out. G | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
It's alright saying glad someone is listening, but am I right in saying the EBR's run an ECU which operates different from a 'conventional' set-up, and it's this that's causing the headache? If so, presumably they knew at EBR what they were facing before the start. Rocket in England | ||
| Hughlysses |
Rocket- I think what we we're suggesting is EBR is running a normal WSBK ECU, it's just that EBR had no experience with this system in AMA and apparently the WSBK Italian team can't figure out how to set it up. Given that Geoff May's bike has had so many more problems than Aaron Yates' bike, I do wonder if perhaps Geoff's bike doesn't have a different ECU setup from Aaron's. (Message edited by Hughlysses on June 21, 2014) | ||
| Gregtonn |
Consider a one-size-fits-all ECU. How many different engine, ignition, fuel pump, injector etc. configurations would it have to accommodate? An ECU that can do all these things, and hopefully do them well for all bikes, would have to be hugely complex. Do you begin to see why some teams pay ridiculous amounts of money to software engineers? Who thought the ECU rule was a good idea? G | ||
| Hughlysses |
On a more encouraging topic, decent results for both EBR teams in AMA Superbike today at Barber. | ||
| Classax |
EBR/HERO has two test teams, One is racing in AMA and the other in WSBK. To the contrary of some, if HERO/EBR knew all the problems they would be facing in WSB before they started they likely would not have been problems. I know there are some who hate that a developmental race team is sullying the institution of WSBK but as long as they can physically get to the races and qualify for the races they should be allowed to. Quite a few teams to include SUZUKI, MV and EBR have toasted engines on track during the races or practices that resulted in red flags and a few did so resulting in yellows namely EBR, MV, BMW, Aprilia and Suzuki. Trap speeds are still considerably down from the AMA side of the house and they are running out of allotted engines. Looks like a first year race effort to me. No excuses they are doing abysmal full stop as my English friends would say. That's racing though. To the Gent who buying a KTM, unless you're planning to enter your bike in WSBK I don't see how EBR running their engines on the edge of destruction in racing correlates to what you would experience as a street rider. the 1290 is great bike by the way. If history proves correct the 1190 like the 1125 engine will likely prove to be bullet proof for the STREET rider. I only have a little over 6k (2.8K of which on the track)miles on mine now and it just keeps getting better, but only time will tell. I don't exactly baby it either. Point unless you're gonna go racing at a high level, buy what suits your ergos and riding style best. Otherwise its like comparing apples in order to buy oranges. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I know there are some who hate that a developmental race team is sullying the institution of WSBK but as long as they can physically get to the races and qualify for the races they should be allowed to. Yawn..... In reference to the ECU. I made mention of it as I read an interview with Erik where he said something about how EBR had developed an ECU unlike other manufacturers. Might have been something to do with interfacing with fuel pump possibly? And this is the difficulty they were having in making the EBR work with a (my words) 'more conventional' ECU system as used in WSBK. Rocket in England | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well guys, finally, here are the answers to many of the questions we've had about EBR's WSBK effort this year: http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/21/on-the-record -geoff-may/ Very pertinent quote:
RPM limit and brake pads are issues; they're working on them. | ||
| Rubberdown |
Seriously? I assumed these guys knew something about racing. Now that reality has been realized, maybe EBR can reorganize, retool, re-everything, keep the fighting spirit, and make realistic effort. | ||
| Classax |
Guys,Please read this article, May address many of the issues we have been discussing. Thoughts? http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/21/on-the-record -geoff-may/ Things I found interesting were: They're running stock gear at 1k higher than the street and 500rmp AMA bikes and still in need of more rpms. Confusing because the rough mathematics(doesn't account for weight, rolling or aerodynamic resistance) that should but them about at 193mph but they are still trapping much slower. I know the street bike hits the soft rev limiter with plenty of power but can't spin any faster. Another 1K rpm on top of that would see them near the 202 mark. They are still trapping way slower than they should.  I find it interesting that there is not an evo bike on the grid that makes more torque and on dyno graphs for all but the BMW are within 8bhp of the EBR, yet the EVO bikes which are supposedly also "stock" seem so MUCH stronger than the EBR, and hold together better. Seems just like the same old stuff we see in FIM motorcross, I guess the homologated precision parts really do make a difference.  Forged billet parts have the strength to let you spin your engine much faster with out going to bits. That said I don't know that the ET-VT in the 1190 has 220hp potential even with alternate approved parts.  Pad material has always been and continues to be an issue with ZTL. It's been a struggle to find a compound that provides the bite, feel and longevity of either pad or rotors. I'm currently Running EBC HH EFPA up front and they bite more,have more power but I can already see they are wearing out my rotors. He confirms what Mat and Sean have correctly asserted have said a conventional set up would be one less variable which no one can denied. He also confirms what others have said in that they are there to develop the ZTL system at the WSB level and He outlines the kind of help they need to do it. I was trying to calculate the effect of the softer tire for the EVO's and May alludes they are good for about a second a lap. That's truly amazing when you stop and think about it. Kudos to the engineers behind those marvels of technology. Next year when everyone is on EVO spec bikes we should see much closer racing through out the field. Very good for the sport. The fact that May is being so candid about the issues is encouraging. He is first a foremost a company man and wouldn't just go off at the mouth about this type of thing. It would suggest to me that EBR/HERO are trying to address their issues. Best of luck in the AM guys. PS.. I also am glad that he admitted what most of us already knew but is something that really should only be said by a member of the team. Mr. May on the EBR WSB effort said: " We’re still running stock pistons, stock rods, and even stock cams. EBR is a small company trying to go up against the world. We thought with sheer drive and ambition we could make things happen, but it’s impossible... Personally, I’m embarrassed to be where I am. And I feel badly for EBR because I know the bike is much better than we’re showing. I truly believe in this project, and that’s why I’m here. Hopefully, we can right the ship and get some points by the end of the season..." | ||
| Gregtonn |
Seriously? I assumed these guys knew something about racing. Now that reality has been realized, maybe EBR can reorganize, retool, re-everything, keep the fighting spirit, and make realistic effort. I'll ignore the ignorance (pun intend) of the first and address the second. Retooling and re-everything does not happen instantly out of thin air in the factory or lab. It takes real world testing and effort. That is what EBR is doing. G | ||
| Rubberdown |
Then they have no business dicking around as boys in a man's game. Reboot. |
