| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
Actually . . . it's Lamborghini . . not Audi.  | ||
| Classax |
Yea I really like how MV has approached this whole new phase with everything within their company. The F3 800 was on my shortlist for a long time, but ergos and engine character just weren't optimal for ME. It will be their 2015 offerings as I think MV and EBR are the closest to being able to translate racetrack fare to the showroom with minimal disruption on production and price point. | ||
| Neutrum |
yeah...at the end of the day it's volkswagen...which owns audi, porsche, ducati, lambo, seat, bugatti, bentley, skoda... got it? | ||
| Court |
>>>got it? I do. To find the asset "Ducati" . . . you have to look at the Lamborghini balance sheet. I kind of liked it when it was American owned . . . . always fun to see Ducati and Burger King on the same prospectus. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
VAG Audi Lamborghini whoever. They are 100% committed to their investment in Ducati. Not lost on them either, Ducati's racing heritage. Before purchase they were planning future direction for Ducati in Moto GP and WSBK. Their investment plain to see in both series on track. Hero OWN 49.2% of EBR. Their investment remains invisible on track 6 race meetings into the season. Rocket in England | ||
| Bob_thompson |
"Hero OWN 49.2% of EBR. Their investment remains invisible on track 6 race meetings into the season." Sean, just maybe Hero does not care so much about racing or ever winning as you and I or even Erik does but rather "other" investments that to you and I do not seem practical. They (Hero) are a world class (read largest by number of bikes sold), motorcycle manufacturer for a reason and I'll bet have their sights on much larger endeavors. Just something to ponder as there does not "seem" to be any other reasonable explanation. And just by virtue of all the talk here and across the world they are succeeding.......somewhat. Also lets not suppose that we know what is in their minds. Both Hero and Erik have been greatly successful in their own endeavors. Bob (Message edited by Bob_thompson on June 12, 2014) | ||
| Court |
>>>>"Hero OWN 49.2% of EBR. Their investment remains invisible on track 6 race meetings into the season." HERO . . for what it's worth . . .has made a BOATLOAD of money as a result of their association with EBR. Some have written me curious about what EBR was doing during those years it did not build motorcycles. Trust me all those Elves were not sitting about playing board games. There is a story to be told . . . . when the time is right . . . and it'd be the cover story of Forbes magazine. You get that much talent in one place . . . good things follow. Let's hope Ducati does as well for whoever the hell owns them . . . history has seen them on the ropes many times since their humble beginning as an electronics company. Here's hoping . . . | ||
| Neutrum |
...has made a boatload of money as a result of their association with ebr.... how? please explain. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Thank you Bob, Court. Actually, after I posted the above I proceeded to the new EBR topic where similar comment would not be lost. I got to thinking I know what's really going on. Hero didn't buy half of EBR for much more than a helping hand for Erik as a mark of respect. Hero obviously benefit from these unique or special projects EBR are doing for them. The Hastur looked great. The hybrid diesel electric scooter, clever as heck. Bla bla bla. But this is more about friendship with a touch of investment. WSBK is a bit of a whim is all. It's nothing more than a punt. Bob's right. Hero are expanding into 50 countries. WSBK is the last thing they're bothered about, win or lose, or look like complete arseholes at it. To Hero $25mil is petty cash kept in a biscuit tin on an office desk somewhere. But they got a great deal for their money in getting Erik's design genius it seems. Erik got to go racing. All be it not with overly much to succeed other than to have taken part. But for starters it's certainly making a few die hards very happy. I imagine Erik must be too if people are results. Maybe I've been missing the point all along. Rocket in England | ||
| Classax |
A great article on braking in motogp versus WSB http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/06/12/exclusive-int erview-with-brembo-engineer-lorenzo-bortolozzo-duc ati-factory-rider-andrea-dovizioso-on-motogp-braki ng/?src=SOC&dom=fb | ||
| Reepicheep |
When I worked for a really big aerospace company you all would recognize, I saw a really funny memo come out. A couple of years before, said big company would use their buying power and really aggressive buyers to squeeze the crap out of suppliers and negotiate really favorable terms and prices, and would later during the contract further put the screws to the suppliers. It worked great for two years, it was like money in the bank. Then the first supplier quit or went out of business. Then the second. Then a whole stack. All of a sudden, parts weren't available, resources weren't available, people weren't available, and the losses (which I did not see and were not published) resulted in a full blown panic internally as projects and production were shut down. The net result was the memo, which pretty much said "Please stop driving out suppliers into bankruptcy". Maybe Hero invested in EBR because they knew that investment was one hell of a good deal. I still go out once every few months and try to figure out how to buy Hero or EBR stock for my retirement funds. No easy way for me to do that right now. Actually, Court, you should set up an indexed mutual fund that invests in every company EBR does work for. I'll buy. | ||
| Court |
>>>>Actually, Court, you should set up an indexed mutual fund that invests in every company EBR does work for. I'll buy. Hahaha . . .now you are into areas that I CAN'T talk about. EBR has, and it's a carry over from Buell, a system of dealing with vendors that ascribes weights to various metrics. Being the "least expensive" is pretty well down the list. As Dave Gess learned with the famed S1 Lighting headlight experience . . . a single part can bring down an entire production run. Be mindful that with 900+ parts on a motorcycle, 400+ unique, that each and every part of the approved unit must be on the bike to ship. Detroit took the punch on the chin, and set the precedent, years ago when they tried shipping a vehicle and were going to have the dealer install, something like the cigarette lighter, later when the shipments arrived. A motorcycle built with the cheapest vendors would . . . well, never be built. Okay . . I can't leave without at least one "remind me to tell you:. Next time our paths cross (or when I get my charger back . . .hahahaha) remind me to tell you about the 1190RS wiring harness. I will leave you with one thing . . . EBR has generated as many GREAT tales in a few short years as Buell did over 20 years! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Can't wait for the next book! | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Get a room  Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
2015 WSb rules announced...... FIM Superbike & Supersport World Championships and FIM Superstock 1000cc Cup Decision of the Superbike Commission The Superbike Commission, composed of Messrs Javier Alonso (WSBK Executive Director), Ignacio Verneda (FIM Executive Director, Sport) and Takanao Tsubouchi (MSMA Representative), met at Barcelona-Catalunya Circuit on 12 June in the presence of Messrs Daniel Carrera (WSBK Championship Director) and Gregorio Lavilla (WSBK Sporting Director ). The meeting focused on two points: 1. SBK Technical Regulations 2015: The main pillars of the technical regulation 2015 were approved by majority inside the Superbike Commission. In 2015 the Championship will return to one technical platform. The rules were previously agreed to be as the 2014 EVO regulations and they have formed the basis of the 2015 rules. However amendments have been made to ensure parity of performance across the diverse range of machines in the championship and the regulations are also aimed at both reducing annual costs and making the Championship more accessible to new teams. Chassis Regulations: Remain largely unchanged excepting some clarifications to several points. The tolerances applied in measuring frames have been removed. Engine Regulations: The previously agreed EVO regulations form the basis of the 2015 rules. However due to the very limited options available to ensure parity of performance between different motorcycles the level of tuning opportunities has been increased. The notable points are: • Camshafts are free • Cylinder head porting is free but no welding • Valves, pistons and most major engine components must remain standard • Con-rods may be replaced with similar material but equal weight parts for safety • Crankcases standard • One set of racing gearbox ratios allowed for the whole season • Balancing rules no longer use weight, it will be intake restriction only Electronic Regulations: The FIM Superbike World Championship remains the last high level championship open to the manufacturers to develop their electronic control strategies. The manufacturers will therefore be allowed to continue to develop the electronic solutions but these systems must be available to all other teams using the same make of machine and it will be called the ‘’Superbike Kit System’’. The notable points are: • Price limited Superbike Kit System available to all teams in World Superbike and other FIM championships • Only approved ECU’s may be used in these kits – they will be race ECU’s • The software of the factory team will be available to all other teams at three points during the racing season • The Superbike Kit System must include all of the electronic parts not fitted to the standard street machine and required for the system to be fully operational (except the wiring harness) • The selling price for the Superbike Kit System will be €8000 • Alternatively the Superstock Kit ECU may be used as in the 2014 EVO regulations, this is to encourage wildcard participation Throttle Body Regulations: For the 2015 and 2016 season the regulations will continue to allow the addition of Ride By Wire (RBW) systems to the throttle bodies. These systems must become available to all the other teams using the same machines. They will work hand in hand with the ‘’Superbike Kit Systems’’. For the 2017 season and onwards the regulations will mandate the use of the standard throttle bodies. The notable points are: • Ride by wire kits must be available to all teams in World Superbike and other FIM championships • Only the machine manufacturer or one appointed supplier will be allowed to provide the kit (for safety) • The price of the kits will be €2500 • All non RBW machines currently utilise a solution and the control strategies are mature • Standard road bikes will adopt the use of this technology by 2017 meaning development continuity *Complete provisional document will be available in the following days at FIM WEBSITE. 2. Additional engine allocation SBK category: There was an official request from a team to slightly increase the number of engines available for 2014. The Superbike Commission refused this possibility by majority. Apaprently it was pressure from manufacturers that persuaded DORNA/FIM to abandon the full EVO rule package for 2015, so that extra tuning can now be applied particulary to bikes that are more 'road biased' than others (although of course it measn that all bikes can benefit from the extra tuning allowed). The main company behind the pressure....Honda. Now there is a surprise! They were worried that more raced focussed bike such as Ducati or Aprilia would have too big an advanatge under full EVO rules. The problem now of course is that the amended rules allow Ducati and Aprilia exactly the same extra latitude for tuning that it allows Honda and Suzuki, so any advantage Honda think they have gained will be negated probably. Electronics will still be unregulated except for ECU kit costs (€8K for the full kit including sensors). There is no cost ceiling for electroncs engineers and actual mapping per team I notice, althouh manufacturers will have to 'share' their electronics strategies 3 times a year with other teams running the same equipment. How this will affect the EBR team for next year (if there is one) is anyone's guess for now. maybe they will benefit from the extra tuning allowed, although that is still at a lower elevl than allowed under this years rules. | ||
| 46champ |
Does this mean the manufacture can use there OWN ECU with all there own parts as long as they sell it for 8000 euros. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
If I'm reading it right it means, if EBR came in this year expecting to go 'open' next year with a better chance, understanding, more even playing field, whatever you want to call it, I think that ship sailed. Of course, and again if I'm reading it right, it means EBR are as free as the next to bring in their fancy race parts, again. Again? Rocket in England | ||
| Bob_thompson |
"Of course, and again if I'm reading it right, it means EBR are as free as the next to bring in their fancy race parts, again. Again?" Gotta agree there Sean. If EBR wants to be more competitive, and I know Erik will definitely want to be, no matter what Hero says and they are not the majority stockholder, EBR NEEDS to develop at least a few enhancing race parts of anything that will be allowed next year. They should be already working on race parts for racing in other venues, AMA, in particular, and have what is EVER available to have in WSB. Its yet more sales items for them for privateers to race in anything from AMA & British SB series to Bonneville, etc. and means more income for them as well as a better showing in WSB. Lets roll EBR! Wonder if Court has any inside info........? | ||
| Fast1075 |
Bending rules is fun. Finding the open spaces between rules is more fun. If the rules say "no welding", can you get away with epoxy? An old story about Smokey Yunick when he was building Hudson Hornets in the early NASCAR days and the cars were absolutely dominating the races. They tore an engine down and found the head (inline 6) had been "ported". When they found this they slapped a hefty penalty on him. He pointed out that the rules said specifically that "grinding of the ports" was prohibited, and that he did not "grind the ports". The process he used, later refined and in use today would come to be known as "extrude hone". He pumped a slurry of valve lapping compound thru the ports. Another was when the rules reduced the size of the fuel tank, his cars complied with the tank size to the letter of the rules, yet his cars went race distance with one less fuel stop than the rest. When they checked the car, they found a 3" pipe run inside the frame rails from tank to the front of the car. When they went after him for illegal fuel capacity, he pointed out that the rules stated the capacity of the TANK, and there were no rules that stated how big the FUEL LINE could be. The cam rule change could possibly allow better V.E. I know EBR uses high quality connecting rods, but they could send the CAD file to Carillo, with spec to use their favorite ultra strength alloy, give it an EBR part number and specify it as an alternate stock replacement part number. | ||
| Gaesati |
Thanks for the information , Matt. The possibilities of these rules will be a fruitful area of discussion especially in the "what EBR should do" thread. | ||
| Hughlysses |
An old story about Smokey Yunick when he was building Hudson Hornets in the early NASCAR days and the cars were absolutely dominating the races. They tore an engine down and found the head (inline 6) had been "ported". When they found this they slapped a hefty penalty on him. Minor technical correction to this story- Hudson Hornets were flatheads, so it was actually the block that was ported. Yunick also used lacquer to build up areas in the intake ports where necessary, which would apparently also be legal under the upcoming WSBK rules. He once said that when built cars, he didn't concentrate on the things the book said you couldn't do, he looked for things the book didn't say you couldn't do. (Message edited by Hughlysses on June 14, 2014) | ||
| Fast1075 |
I stand corrected. I had my Hudson/Nash/AMC wires crossed. Did you know that a car with a turbocharged AMC 6 cylinder engine competed in the Indy 500? It broke, but ran like a scalded ape until it died. The latest (and last) of the AMC derived I-6's was the 4.0. Damn near indestructible. I had a 4.5 stroker version in my Comanche. Sold it with over 2K miles on it, still ran strong. I now return the thread to it's original topic. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I always liked rodded inline 6's. The Hudson is 308 cubic inches (stock) and came with (optional) twin one-barrel carbs. It regularly trounced OHV V-8's in the early days of NASCAR, mainly because the cars handled so well. OK, NOW back on topic... | ||
| Buellhusker |
Smokey Yunick also had the rear 3rd member flipped over and he actually ran the motor in reverse retation (all you need is a different cam) so it would drive torque into the left rear tire. | ||
| Classax |
If they don't close the loop whole that allows factories homolgate trick race kit and then down spec it for cost or production considerations, in the show rooms we're right back in the same place we are today. Specifically I'm speaking of "Valves, pistons and most major engine components must remain standard". Right now Kawi, Suzuki, Aprillia and Ducati race kits all replace these items in favor of up spec equipment on the EVO bikes. I think EBR will be able to make good progress now with the heads, and cams from a design standpoint the RX heads are designed for flexibility and ease of use more so than raw max power. Either way their going to have to develop so race hardware if they want to get close to the middle for next year. (For the record even if the fastest bikes are only slightly faster than the current best of EVO's the EBRs are still a long way back in current form.) I like the electronics rules as I believe this is the next best horizon for development. Although I really don't care for the feel of RBW on the Ducati or MV's, Aprilia's feel really good. | ||
| Trojan |
If they don't close the loop whole that allows factories homolgate trick race kit and then down spec it for cost or production considerations, in the show rooms we're right back in the same place we are today. Specifically I'm speaking of "Valves, pistons and most major engine components must remain standard". Right now Kawi, Suzuki, Aprillia and Ducati race kits all replace these items in favor of up spec equipment on the EVO bikes. I think you are actually wrong there. EVO bikes run Superstock spec engines and as far as I know they are limited to using stock parts, not race kit parts. Full factory spec engines have more latitude and can run race kit or third party supplied parts. If a manufacturer wants to build enough 'specials' to homologate the whole bike for Superstock then that is the only way to get race kit parts into the Superstock or EVO class. The engine spec rules won't really affect twin cylinder machines too much anyway, as they are already limited to using stock rods etc. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
"The engine spec rules won't really affect twin cylinder machines too much anyway, as they are already limited to using stock rods etc." Matt, are you saying that the IL4's & V4's have more latitude for changing very important parts then the Vtwins? That sucks. | ||
| Classax |
I think you are actually wrong there. EVO bikes run Superstock spec engines and as far as I know they are limited to using stock parts, not race kit parts. Full factory spec engines have more latitude and can run race kit or third party supplied parts. My wife says I should always reserve the right to be wrong since with her I do it a lot, but if you check the spec on the Superstock engine for Aprilia, Kawi, Honda your will find race spec pistons, rings, cams(stock profile) water pump, oil pump and larger radiators and oil coolers. The WSB engine for Aprilia suitable for raicng EVO has even more little do dads. So no, while I reserve the rigt to be so, I must humbly insist that I am not, wrong that is. Homologation rule 1.5 "FIM can grant a part and product update differing from above rule(1.5 a-g), purely for the scope of production cost saving provided that following provisions are kept: · Crankcase is not lighter* than the original homologated unit. · The positions of crankshaft, gearbox, frame attachments, main shafts and position of cylinders remain unchanged (*apart casting method for mass production)." This allows MFG's to down spec, thier parts for sale to showrooms and still be compliant with race catalog parts considered STOCK. Do cast pistons and rods,or cranks make a difference between machined billet jobs in reliability and tightness to tolerances, you bet they do. Either way EBR has to get some race spec parts, in the hands of its customers. | ||
| Classax |
Point in case, here is an excerpt from the Aprilia WSB EVO Spec engine offer sheet RACE ENGINE SBK R EVO 2.0 TECHNICAL DATA SHEET Engine: Aprilia longitudinal 65° V4 cylinder, 4 stroke liquid cooling system, double overhead camshafts (DOHC), four valves per cylinder. Bore x Stroke: 78 x 52.3 [mm] Total displacement: 999.6 [cc] Maximum power: 210 HP (+ / - 2%) at 14.000 RPM Gear box ratio: 1st 38/16 new (2.375) – 2nd 35/18 new (1.944) – 3rd 28/17 new (1.647) – 4th 32/22 (1.455) – 5th 34/26 (1.308) – 6th 32/27 (1.222). Clutch: Race type with slipper system. Primary drive: Clutch gear with cushion system, primary ratio: 73/44 (1.659). Balance shaft: On ball bearings. ENGINE CONFIGURATION Engine tuned by Aprilia Racing, including: - CNC machined cylinder head including intake, exhaust ducts combustion chamber surfaces. - Low friction camshaft surfaces. - Valve train design with light weight components. - Optimization of clearance of all components. - Dedicated lubrication also for oil cooling. - Internal added volumes for anti sloshing oil movement. - Components replaced: pistons, spark plugs, gaskets, camshafts and race clutch. - Test bench activity for engine validation. TECHNICAL NOTES - This engine is not usable with the RSV4 production ECU. - All tech references on performance are obtained with Aprilia Racing ECU and Akrapovic exhaust. - The engine is sold without: electric wiring, complete airbox and throttle bodies. Race rule compliance: This model has been designed in compliance with FIM SBK race rule and fiche Aprilia RSV4 2013/5. Before using this engine in other championship, you must check the conformity, with the local race rules. Warranty: None of these model components, is under warranty. Public roads usage ban: This engine and its components were designed to be used on race track competition only, for this reason the usage on public roads is strictly prohibited. Information and technical data in this document may change without notice. TERMS OF SALE PRICE: € 45.000,00 EXW Vat excluded. Delivery: To be defined but not earlier than 30 days from order confirmation. Conditions: Ex-works Aprilia Racing S.r.l. (Noale, Venice – Italy) Payment: 20% at the time of order confirmation, the balance before the collection of the engine and through advance bank transfer. That's not even getting started on the cool WSB frame parts, and ultra light wheels. The Superbike SPEC has even fewer limitations so they can try lots of stuff. A showroom stock rsv4 dyno's here in the States in the low 170's at the crank, an EVO RSV4 is putting out around 210bhp. I'm most knowledgeable on the RSV4 because as I have often stated, had EBR waited a month to debut the RX, I would have owned one. Kawi and Suzuki have similar specs and gains. That said as an EBR fan while I'm glad EBR is able to go racing with the parts in the showrooms, if they want to win they are going to have to step through the same loop holes... urh ah jump through the same hoops as everyone else. | ||
| Hootowl |
Short of finding some RPM, which may be difficult with stock rods, I don't see the 1190 making 210 hp, if that's what it takes to get competitive. |
