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Opto
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 02:38 am: | 
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I really wish they had a race tuners kit out for the XB, complete with the ability to attenuate oxygen sensor voltage (hint hint hint)
Are you hinting here Bigbird that if we could drop the output voltage from the O2 sensor by a small amount over it's whole output range then the ecm would feed the engine a bit more fuel? Taking it from a 14.7 stoichiometric economy ratio to a 12.8 performance ratio?
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Opto
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 02:46 am: |
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One more question open to all:
Can anyone tell me the manufacturer and manufacturer's part number for the XB12 O2 sensor and fuel injectors please? (I want to research more info without pulling my bike to bits) Thanks. |
Unibear12r
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 03:24 am: |
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Thats what I think he is Opto.
On the O2 sensor in the service manual.
14.7 to 1 is .48 volts
Less than .41 volts indicates running lean.
Greater than .56 volts indicates running rich.
Sorry but I don't see any parts listing like that.
Good Luck
edited by unibear12r on March 11, 2004 |
Opto
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 04:40 am: |
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Uni it's not difficult to drop an output voltage from the sensor by a small amount, ie it's not rocket science. Depending on other ecm issues though. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 07:51 am: |
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Tell me what it does, and what you want it to do. It's probably easy. |
Bigbird
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 09:00 am: |
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1) What is the quickest way to let the DDFI relearn, for example after changing from a stock airfilter to a K&N?
The quickest way for the system to relearn is to reset the AFV to 100%, then ride the bike at 3000 RPM in 4th gear (Tech services recommendation the last time I talked to them about it). Without being able to reset the afv you might have a longer learning curve, but I suspect 3000 RPM in 4th gear is still the right answer.
2) Does the engine "stumble" briefly as the new "relearned" settings are locked in? That depends on how far out of whack the AFV is. Stumbling is possible, lean backfire could be possible, and in one case I saw a new xb12 that had not learned yet foul a plug because people kept starting it and letting it idle without taking it out and letting it learn.
4) What are the significant differences between a stock ecm and a race ecm? Honestly I haven't bothered to learn this information yet. I SUSPECT it is possibly a combination of mapping changes and timing changes, but I could be wrong.
5) After running an XB12 with Drummer, K&N and race ecm, the tech tells me the ecm is trying to lean out the mixture but it can't go any further, AFV was 88%.
Was the TPS reset with the new ecm? If so it sounds to me like a possible bad ecm out of the box, or there was a poor connection on a terminal at the ecm, something along those lines. I can't think of any other reason why it would be that far out. But then again, cut me some slack if I'm wrong as it's difficult to diagnose something like this via Badweb!
Are you hinting here Bigbird that if we could drop the output voltage from the O2 sensor by a small amount over it's whole output range then the ecm would feed the engine a bit more fuel? Taking it from a 14.7 stoichiometric economy ratio to a 12.8 performance ratio? Interpret it however you would like. I'm not really interested in directly telling you how to change things that would upset the EPA. Instead you'll have to draw your own conclusions. But I can tell you that Techlusions (Mark Doebreck's company, inventer of what ultimately became the DFO) has a version of their box available for BMW oilhead Motronic systems that functions like a DFO, with an additional pot that can be used for attenuating O2 sensor signal. For off road use only, of course 
You really have to be careful when messing with O2 sensor voltage output. The way I understand it you can't simply drop any old resistor inline because you could reduce the entire signal too much, meaning you will force the entire system rich. I could be wrong, but if DDFI is like most other injection systems I've worked on if you get very far off center on your "crosscounts" as the O2 sensor voltage sweeps you will force the system to keep going richer and richer, to the limits of it's adjustment. In other words the O2 sensor can only produce so much voltage. The trick is to figure out how to attenuate it without forcing too much of the duration of the sweep to low voltage (lean). I'm not an electrical engineer, but if I really wanted to figure it out I don't think it would be too terrible.
All I was saying in my post was that it would be nice to have software control over such a feature if a race tuner kit were ever developed for DDFI.
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M1combat
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 11:10 am: |
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Does the race ECM have a greater range available for it to use to adjust fuel delivery level?
Once we hash out this topic, we'll have to get into the "other" race ECM... |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 06:41 pm: |
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Chainsaw,
I got no codes on that day, I have used the wire in the past, it let me find the broken wires for the rear injector connector a couple of months ago.
Blake,
You keep bringing up the catalitic converter. Does the Softail or VRod have one?
Sensors vs. Sensors:
The Buell DDFI system uses: the Intake Air Temperature Sensor, the Engine Temperature Sensor, the Throttle Position Sensor and the Cam Position Sensor to determine incoming air, and the O2 sensor on the rear cylinder to determine the results and adjust during cruising.
The Delphi HD Softail system uses all of the sensors mentioned above, PLUS the Manifold Air Pressure Sensor, the Anti Knock sensor, and the automatic Idle control. The icing on the cake is that you can Monitor and TUNE it with the Screaming Eagle Race Tuner software on your own computer.
It's better, no matter how you want to slice it.
I have not looked into adapting the system, but anythings possible with enough time and money to make it work. |
Bigbird
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 08:12 pm: |
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The Delphi HD Softail system uses all of the sensors mentioned above, PLUS the Manifold Air Pressure Sensor, the Anti Knock sensor, and the automatic Idle control. The icing on the cake is that you can Monitor and TUNE it with the Screaming Eagle Race Tuner software on your own computer.
It's better, no matter how you want to slice it.
I disagree. The Delphi system doesn't have an Oxygen sensor. It's not a feedback fuel system. That is where DDFI has it beat.
Once again I will say that in theory more sensors would equate to a better system. But then there is reality. A million different measurements would be worthless without mapping that is designed to make the most of the incoming data.
Both DDFI and Delphi are some of the best injection in the motorcycle biz when judged on performance and reliability. I like the delphi system for it's versatility and tuneability. I dislike the fact that it is not a feedback system. I like DDFI because it is a feedback fuel system but dislike the fact that it is not as easily tuned or modified as the Delphi system.
There is no perfect system that does everything perfectly all of the time. There is also nothing to be gained by arguing which system is better. They both have strong points and weak points. I'm sure future versions of each system will continue to get more accurate as well as more versatile. |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 09:49 pm: |
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I agree and said before they are both good.
From what I had read, the Delphi FI system does have an O2 sensor.
If it does not, my mistake, sorry about that. It does change the value of one system over the other, but I still think that the added sensors and tuneability of the Delphi make it better in my opinion. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 11:31 pm: |
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JQ,
I'm not 100% sure about the current 49 state HD models, but am fairly certain that HD's Cali models ALL have cats. I'm halfway sure the 49 staters do too.
In my opinion, the system that can perform best with the least complexity is hands down the better system. Every component and/or sensor you add to an EFI system reduces its reliability.
The current DDFI system is world class and simple as EFI comes. I'm not arguing that it's the best, the whole row is over your continual nit picking and nagativism towards just about anything Buell. It's tiresome and it doesn't belong in this forum. You have so much to contribute. I just wish it were more positive. At least objective. Can you see where I'm coming from JQ? |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 11:43 pm: |
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BB,
There may be no point to the mental masturbation other than apparently JQ and I seem to enjoy it.   |
Opto
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 12:37 am: |
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Bigbird, thanks for all the answers, I feel better now! |
Hardluckxb
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 06:54 am: |
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simple = smart |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 07:23 am: |
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M1combat asked for weaknesses in the DDFI system, you came up with some, no one seemed to take yours negatively.
Then I followed up and came up with some as compared with the newer HD Delphi system, which addreses some of the "weaknesses" in the current DDFI system, is used in all HD's fuel injected bikes bikes today, and it can be tuned with HD's own software (which a LOT of BUELL owners would KILL for), and I'm the negative one, even though I said right off the bat that the DDFI system was good, but I dared to say the Delphi system was better?
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M1combat
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 05:02 pm: |
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Quite frankly, I'm glad to have helped to spark this discussion... It hasn't gotten heated too much so far and at least one person has learned a thing or two.
You are correct Jose... many of us WOULD kill (or close anyway) for a software tunable FI system on our Buells. I think it was mentioned here already... Maybe the Delphi system could be adapted? I'm not saying it's better (although it may be) but I would love to be able to tune my own bike. If the stock ECM would run at 12.8 A/F I wouldn't want to, but since it doesn't I want to be able to tune it. It runs at 14.7 or somewhere there abouts. I think that was said earlier in this thread anyway. Even if I do have to de-tune it when I leave the track  .
What A/F ratio does the race ECM shoot for? |
Bigbird
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 06:33 pm: |
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From what I had read, the Delphi FI system does have an O2 sensor.
Taken from the "general description" paragraph of the EFI section of a 2004 Harley-Davidson touring model service manual:
"The engine management system consists of the following components:
Electronic control module (ECM)
Crank position sensor (CKP)
Manifold absolute pressure sensor (MAP)
Intake air temperature sensor (IAT)
Engine temperature sensor (ET)
Idle air control (IAC)
Throttle position sensor (TP)
Vehicle speed sensor (VSS)
Turn signal module (TSM) or optional, factory-installed turn signal security module (TSSM). This includes an integrated bank angle sensor (BAS)
Ignition coil."
There is no mention of either an O2 sensor or a catalytic converter.
Where did you copy that article from? |
Henrik
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 09:09 pm: |
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Discussing with an engineer is like wrestling a pig in mud - at some point you realize he's enjoying it 
Henrik |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 09:36 pm: |
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Bigbird, click on the link in my 6:41 pm post above, it's on this site. I scanned it from Motorcycle Consumer News, written by Steve Natt (X1 owner, does the bike reviews/riding skill segments on American Thunder) in July 2001.
If he got it wrong, that's were I got it from, so I apologize for that.
Catalytic converters, other than the California models, they don't have one. |
Dyna
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:03 pm: |
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Guess the author
BTW, open loop actually means no loop in my opinion...ie. no feedback from the O2 sensor. Anyhow, the XB runs open loop at idle, and also at WOT, but at all points in between runs closed loop.
Here is a little more crude explanation of open vs. closed. Open loop fuel injection systems are mapped with a set of pre-planned fuel tables that are switched between based on input from ambient pressure. That way if the altitude is high, they switch to a leaner table. Pretty simple, and reasonably effective, unless something is different in the fuel or the engine or the intake or the exhaust system from the engine where the tables were set. (Read this as: pray that your engine stays in perfect shape its whole life and never, never modify anything) Also, this type of system doesn't need much processor power because the adjustments are pretty coarse and don't need to be made very often.
In closed loop mode, the system checks the exhaust mixture with the O2 sensor, and modifies the fuel injector output to keep the mix at the optimum. These checks happen constantly and at a very rapid rate. Closed loop systems are significantly more expensive than fully mapped ones, because of the O2 sensor expense and the higher level processor involved to make the necessary mixture decisions at high speed.
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José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:29 pm: |
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edited by josé_quiñones on March 12, 2004 |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:31 pm: |
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HD sells two different EFI tuning tools, the simpler one is basically a rebadged Techilusion TFI box:
Then the full blown EFI Race Tuner
I wonder if the Screaming Eagle Fueler (the rebadged TFI box) works on Buells? Does Techilusion still sell a TFI box under their label or Revtech's? |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 10:36 pm: |
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HD even sells a version for the 04 Carbureted bikes.
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Blake
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 11:18 pm: |
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Oink? |
Dyna
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 08:40 am: |
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EB wrote that. |
Smitty
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 12:32 pm: |
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The XB12 emmision levels beating Euro II back up Dyna's post. The right ammount of fuel at the right time.
Dyna thanks for that post. |
Opto
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 09:46 pm: |
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I'm convinced that what EB said is true - I have seen my XB12's stock ecm adjust to running with a Drummer and dealer said AFV 100%. I fitted a K&N after that, took it in, dealer said AFV 100% so he's satisfied I'm not running lean and warranty issues have never been mentioned.
Point is the ecm has adjusted to the new changes, whereas an open loop system would not be able to cope without retuning via computer.
I did buy a race ecm for this setup but it makes the bike run like s**t, too rich. As Bads1 and Bigbird suggested maybe I got a bad one. I'll just sit on it for a while.
The bike goes so hard I've got to learn to ride smoother to go faster.. |
Opto
| | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 09:52 pm: |
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BTW, I think the "closed loop" at idle stated by Motorcycle Consumer News would refer to feedback from the cam sensor (rpm). The author did use the word "indicates". |
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