| Author | Message | ||
     Rsh |
Maybe not, the XBRR actually won a race at Daytona in it's debut. | ||
| Gregtonn |
I've been a Minnesota Vikings fan for over 50 years. They've lost every Super Bowl they played (4). Do I think EBR should quit after a couple of months? Not a chance! You can't win if you don't play and if you play you will lose sometimes. G | ||
| Gregtonn |
Maybe this should be on the "All New Not Rude Jokes" thread but I will post here anyway. What do you call two Brits flogging a dead horse with a wet blanket? Matt and Sean (or Rocket and Trojan if they prefer). G  | ||
| Trojan |
The series isn't being diminished , tarnished or otherwise besmirched by the presence of a team fast enough to make the grid but struggling to progress. That's racing. The series isn't diminished, they don't care who wins or loses so long as the grids are full and racing at the front is good for TV viewers. The fans don't suffer as they still have exciting racing to watch at thr front, and really don't care because EBR gets zero TV coverage anyway unless they are shown being lapped. The ONLY reputation that risks being diminished is that of EBR, and that is through the efforts of a third party (the independant race team) rather than anything the factory or Erik do directly. What is the answer? Either EBR take direct control of the race team and so directly influence their own reputation and futrure in WSb, or they pull the bikes fom the current team altogether and leave the series. I know that people think this is negative but it really isn't. It is realistic, pragmatic and the only way to salvage some reputation that they are losing at every race so far this year. Right, so if you were building a world superbike winner that could be barely street legal and barely street usable, you build the 1199r. The 1199 is completely street legal and they have sold loads to street riders who are extremely happy with them. I'm sure EBR would love the same sales figures for teh 1190  The 899 is actually a better street bike, and that wouldn't have happened without the 1199 in the first place.Also, Ducati are not basing their entire business model on one engine platform or one model, so can afford to make an exotic flagship that helps to sell all the Monsters and Hypermotards as well. What do you call two Brits flogging a dead horse with a wet blanket? Two people with more a more realistic view of international racing than most probably, and who are not influenced by the nationality of the manufacturer | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
If the organisers were to allow more teams as unsuccessful as EBR into the series, then the series will be diminished. If there were several bikes running around at the back many seconds down on the front or even mid pack runners of a realistic pace, the organisers would be quick to do something about it. Not only would there be cries from racers having to pass mobile islands, the viewing audience would be up in arms over such and would likely turn away as is often the case when premier race series have downturns in racing. We've seen it before both in Moto GP and WSBK, for whatever reason. As it sits now, EBR being a matter of one team, and more often just one bike if any at all, they are being shown a lot of leeway. What we do see is comments like those of Class who seem to believe the other teams and bikes have a distinct technical advantage over the poor disadvantaged newcomers. How long before this moaning becomes common place amongst a U.S. audience and rules are changed to accommodate the newcomers slower pace in the efforts of the organisers to furnish the business model and not the racing. Not difficult to imagine with the money which could be on offer from a company like Hero. Outcome, power restrictions, weight gain, slower racing. Who knows. Anything is likely as Honda by way of an example has proven in many motorsport disciplines over and over again. As for the XBRR winning Daytona. You mean the diminished most prestigious of American races where superbikes were no longer running of course If EBR can't shit they should get off the pot. Rocket in England | ||
| Pwnzor |
If EBR were winning by a huge margin, there would be people crying about how boring the race is. Instead, we have the opposite. There will always be something for people to complain about. | ||
| Trojan |
As for the XBRR winning Daytona. You mean the diminished most prestigious of American races where superbikes were no longer running of course Actually if I remember correctly the XBRR didn't win the Daytona 200 (even in diminished non superbike form) but a support race for twins only? Feel free to correct me of course The whole EBR WSB controversy needs to be viewed not from the POV of a Buell enthusiast but from the viewpoint of a non Buell spectator or someone looking to buy a superbike who is not brand loyal. At the moment the impression given from WSb coverage is that the EBR 1190 is slow and unreliable (regardless of the street bikes actual performance), and that will undoubtedly put some people off buying one, particularly outside the USA. People buying sports superbikes DO look at at track performance, and many of them use them for track days rather than day to day riding, so impressions gained from racing are very very important. At the moment any gains EBR are making by building great street bikes are being sabotaged by the WSB team. Sad but true unfortunately. | ||
| Jscott |
Let's not relive the famous "foggy visor" incident…  http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/german-rico-pe nzkofer-wins-buell-xb-rrs-first-race-at-daytona/ | ||
| Reepicheep |
I freely concede that I am in a much worse position to have an informed opinion than Matt is. But common sense tells me that many people following WSBK see an EBR bike at the back of the pack, and think two things: 1) "Hey, I didn't know they were back in business!" 2) "That sounds beautiful" Some may be thinking "Nobody should buy one of those for the street because it's 8% slower in race trim against other bikes in race trim". People are free to have that opinion, and I'm sure I'd find most of those people fairly tedious to be around. I bet they buy Air Jordan tennis shoes to walk to the tube better also. And Shell gasoline so their fiat 500 can win a formula one race.  (Message edited by reepicheep on June 11, 2014) | ||
| Tpoppa |
I'd venture an educated guess that the current WSB effort is hindering more than helping EBR sales. If I were to spend nearly $20k on a sportbike, I'd not be shopping at the back of the pack. Sorry. | ||
| Classax |
What we do see is comments like those of Class who seem to believe the other teams and bikes have a distinct technical advantage over the poor disadvantaged newcomers. The great thing about facts are they don't require everyone to believe them, in order to still be true. To be clear, yes EBR is behind the curve on both race hard and software. If they want to run at the front or apparently survive race distances its clear they need to develop said parts ASAP. Until they do they've got a long season left of Chicken Littles screaming they should quit, ahead of them. How long before this moaning becomes common place amongst a U.S. audience and rules are changed to accommodate the newcomers slower pace in the efforts of the organisers to furnish the business model and not the racing. urhmm seriously, I don't know may be not quite as long as it took for them to change it for the Italians. It’s not like Ducati never influenced the rules of WSB. Not difficult to imagine with the money which could be on offer from a company like Hero. Outcome, power restrictions, weight gain, slower racing. Who knows. Anything is likely as Honda by way of an example has proven in many motorsport disciplines over and over again. Are you watching the same series I am because all those things are already in place in one form or another. The only thing that will slow the progress of WSb is cost to participate. Why do you think they're going to EVO standards( I mean besides protecting MotoGP). EBR isn't doing well. Fine, as long as they can qualify and don't oil down the track, let them figure it out if they so choose. If they fail to qualify they don't race end of discussion. People buying sports superbikes DO look at at track performance, and many of them use them for track days rather than day to day riding, so impressions gained from racing are very very important. Only to a degree. The bandwagon jumpers typically will own whatever is wining today without any understanding as to why. Generally the folks with the disposable income to afford an EBR are much more sophisticated in their purchasing logic and realize to a great degree that what wins on Sunday bares only a passing external resemblance to what is available in the show rooms for most MFG's. EBR has stated they want to buck that trend and race what they sell, but we are seeing that is much harder to do than perhaps anyone could have thought. Now the hardcore trackday and club racer will be looking at it from a standpoint of race tuning potential. I know a lot of guys who like the RX but bought other bikes this year because there is currently no aftermarket for the RX. So simple things like race plastics and Corsa windscreens aren't available yet. Now THAT group definitely may be put off by the current WSB effort because it suggests a lack of potential to get to the front for reasons Mat clearly and irrefutably stated. Personally I prefer Vtwins for my riding style. The KTM is nice but lacking in a few key areas for ME. The 1199 simply didn't fit my body or riding style as much as I would have liked. I couldn't afford an RS. RSV4 was almost in the garage when the RX announcement came in October. Glad I waited! I'm their prime demographic- Avid Enthusiast but NOT a club racer, who prefers an alternative to the bevy of too similar I4's available in the liter bike class. Pool any group of RX owners and you will see they know the WSbikes from all MFG’s with the exception of Bimota, don't necessarily reflect the machines that can be bought at the local dealer anymore than a NASCAR's does a family sedan down at the local car lot. They will also be knowledgeable and articulate enough to explain that their RX is a lot closer to what the racers are riding in parts count than many other machines. Granted the optional race part kits transform those other machines into RX crushing beasts in WSB at the moment. At the moment any gains EBR are making by building great street bikes are being sabotaged by the WSB team. I wouldn't say ANY gains being sabotage for the reasons stated above, but yes the WSB effort is not helping as much as projected or expected, and yes that is Sad but, unfortunately true. (Message edited by Classax on June 11, 2014) | ||
| Blake |
Are twins in WSBK still required to have restricted intakes? | ||
| Crusty |
When Jeff Gordon wins a NASCAR race, do hoards of people run out and buy Chevys because he drives one? | ||
| Classax |
If I were to spend nearly $20k on a sportbike, I'd not be shopping at the back of the pack. Sorry. You could double your 20K budget and you still wouldn't be close to buying a single one of the bikes on the WSB grid in the SUPERSTOCK race, let alone superpbike. Trundle down to the local A&P and buy yourself a Hondakawasuki, we'll spot you the race plastics, custom fuel tank, brakes, electronics, suspension, and lite weight wheels. Run out there with a showroom spec or even blueprinted engine and you might, just might barely, qualify for the superstock race and it will only last a round or two if you tune it for max power. Go full superbike and you're going to get crushed. But you aren't looking to buy a WSB racer are you? Most of us aren't. You're looking to buy a street bike, or trackday tool, or maybe a club racer. In which case the current crop of liter bikes are so close in performance, that unless you are one of the select few who is actually quick enough to make your living as a racer(in which case you will ride the wheels off whatever you're given), you can throw a dart and ride what suits your body and style best. Don't let those headlight decals fool you, WSB machines are a whole different breed of machine underneath the parts you can see. Unless its a matter of wanting to be seen riding a bike that looks like the one that won last weekends race, people spending this kind of cash buy what works for them, and don't care what other think about it. EBR is finding out the hard way its pretty dang hard to make a bike under $20K with the stones to be able to run in WSB. Ducati has one for three times that amount and you'd still be in the same situation. It may well turn out it can't be done well if at all, but they're in there racing to find out. (Message edited by classax on June 11, 2014) (Message edited by Classax on June 11, 2014) | ||
| Trojan |
Are twins in WSBK still required to have restricted intakes? There are various rules restricting twins in WSb including the use of stock engine internal parts I think (rods etc), which is why Ducati had to make the Panigale with Titanium rods. In 2013 the regulations made the twins and fours the same weight, with provisos: Superbike Minimum weight : 1200 cc 2 cylinders: 165 kg 1000 cc 3 and 4 cylinders: 165 kg For 1200cc 2 cylinders: The minimum weight may be increased twice by 3kg reaching a weight of 168kg and 171kg respectively. The upper limit is 171kg. If this measure proves to be insufficient, then the air restrictor handicap will be applied according to the relevant provisions described in Art 2.4.8.1.3.” From that I read that the intake restrictors are now removed but may be enforced if the Ducati starts to clean up again. The twins do still enjoy a 200cc advantage in capacity though. | ||
| Tpoppa |
When Jeff Gordon wins a NASCAR race, do hoards of people run out and buy Chevys because he drives one? Yes. And they also buy products from his sponsors. | ||
| Classax |
There are various rules restricting twins in WSb including the use of stock engine internal parts I think (rods etc), which is why Ducati had to make the Panigale with Titanium rods. The rods may not weigh any less than the homologated versions. The material is... well... immaterial. The twins do still enjoy a 200cc advantage in capacity though. For which they typically pay a 3-4k practical upper RPM limit. I like that the Panigale is doing well in WSB, its a great machine. I just couldn't live with. MV is doing very well! Looks like they may have their gremlins licked and will be ready 2015! (Message edited by Classax on June 11, 2014) | ||
| Tpoppa |
You could double your 20K budget and you still wouldn't be close to buying a single one of the bikes on the WSB grid in the SUPERSTOCK race, let alone superpbike. Trundle down to the local A&P and buy yourself a Hondakawasuki, we'll spot you the race plastics, custom fuel tank, brakes, electronics, suspension, and lite weight wheels. Run out there with a showroom spec or even blueprinted engine and you might, just might barely, qualify for the superstock race and it will only last a round or two if you tune it for max power. Go full superbike and you're going to get crushed. But you aren't looking to buy a WSB racer are you? Most us of aren't. You're looking to buy a street bike, or trackday tool, or maybe a club racer. In which case the current crop of liter bikes are so close in performance.... Thanks. But none of this is new information. | ||
| Classax |
^ My apologies, some one trotted out an old straw argument so I felt appropriate in replying with equally old, well known facts.  (Message edited by classax on June 11, 2014) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Interesting choice of words. Given that a 4 has a 100% advantage in number of cylinders, and a 100% advantage in swept cylinder distance (stroke)... a 20% advantage in displacement feels like "slightly less of a penalty" rather than "an advantage", but being a twin guy I'm admittedly biased. | ||
| Tpoppa |
Given that a 4 has a 100% advantage in number of cylinders, and a 100% advantage in swept cylinder distance (stroke)... Not this nonsense again  | ||
| Hughlysses |
OK, enough bitching for a while. THEY JUST REVEALED THE SX!!!!!!!!! http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/713 493/741676.html?1402504548  | ||
| Tpoppa |
^^^ I like it! | ||
| Hughlysses |
On a related note, this might explain engineering new parts for WSBK not being at the top of the factory's list right now. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
urhmm seriously, I don't know may be not quite as long as it took for them to change it for the Italians. It’s not like Ducati never influenced the rules of WSB. You need to brush up on your superbike racing history Class. Ducati were not the first and certainly they're not alone in courting rule changes in their favour. Without Ducati's efforts in WSBK racing their might not be a WSBK race series. Certainly not as we know it. Rocket in England | ||
| Classax |
^^ Ducati were not the first and certainly they're not alone in courting rule changes in their favour. Ahh... yeah... that was kind of my point... we so need a sarcasm font. Believe it or not, there actually are very astute, passionate fans of WSB who know the history despite not being old or residing in the old world. | ||
| Trojan |
MV is doing very well! Looks like they may have their gremlins licked and will be ready 2015! MV are struggling with reliability in the Superbike class although when the bike runs it is at least fast and can run in the midfield and ahead of most EVo bikes!. You have to look a bit deeper than the results though to see what MV are doing. 1. The Yachnich (private) team running the MV race effort run Supersport and Superbike teams, with most of that effort directed into the two bike WSS team (which is currently leading the WSS championship). The Superbike effort is restricted to a single rider with less input, so data collection is much less than a two bike team. 2. MV have brought upgrades and new parts to almost every round and test session this season (including new engine specs), so they are constantly experimenting with the Superbike (unlike EBR who seem to be just soldiering on with the same stuff race after race, with no major upgades visible yet). They will amost certainly be in a better place by the end of the season. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Ahh... yeah... that was kind of my point... Needed a little more clarity given Ducati had supported the series from day one and spent five years trying to win it against the fours. Even when they did win, and dominate for years, it was only recently Ducati badgered for rule changes to keep them competitive and in it. Which is hardly the same as EBR's position, which is the comparison your comment rather poorly suggested Believe it or not, there actually are very astute, passionate fans of WSB who know the history despite not being old or residing in the old world. Then let's stay on point eh, and not try to subvert WSBK history in EBR's favour. Rocket in England | ||
| Court |
Plus it's fun to see Ducati owned by Lamborghini . . . .rather than under the Burger King umbrella with Texas Pacific Group. | ||
| Neutrum |
it's audi...not lambo...actually, it's volkswagen...all of 'em... (Message edited by Neutrum on June 12, 2014) |
