| Author | Message | ||
     Tpoppa |
I hate that EBR is doing as abysmal a job in WSB as can be done and still be listed as a participant but I can't muster the indignation or embarrassment of many when the competition just in engines alone has at least three times the development dollars in bolt on parts to play with. It may be ugly for a long time before EBR catches up, if ever. I wonder how this would be going if EBR had the same levels of race proven performance enhancing parts at their disposal. EBR must have considered this prior to deciding to race WSB, right? | ||
| Trojan |
I wonder how this would be going if EBR had the same levels of race proven performance enhancing parts at their disposal. As we don't know exactly what the teams spend we will never know if your figures for engine costs are correct, or if the teams can get them at 'cut price' from the manufacturer. Either way, you have to play by the rules as they stand and if it means that EBR have to spend more to develop a competitive racer then that is what they will have to do. You can't call foul if the rules allow it and EBR doesn't do it. There are maximum prices in force in WSB apparently so manufacturers HAVE to sell bikes at fixed prices to teams wanting to buy them (including Ducati). There is nothing stopping any of them doing what Honda has done in MotoGP with the RC1000R, and sell at a loss compared to their development costs. Ducati would sell you a WSB spec bike if you prove to them that you have the team structure in place to be able to run the bike competitively I'm sure (There is such a bike in BSB right now ridden by Jakub Smryz) A lot of the other components (Brakes,suspension etc) are fixed price items from an approved list, so EBR coudl run the same brakes and suspension as Aprilia or Kawasaki if they chose to. What I find interesting is that in street guise the RSV4 has usually been near the top in weight, and near the bottom in HP with only the RC8 and R1 both weighing more and making less power. Some manufacturers measure weights with fuel/oil and others weight them dry, so 'brochure weights' can vary hugely to actual 'on the road' figures. Also some bikes will save more weight once you remove the catalytic convertor and all the other road gubbins than others. Some have more tuning potential than others too. | ||
| Classax |
/\ I'm pretty sure you're right that some teams will get a discount, I was going off published price list for this year. As far as playing by the rules, no one here is crying foul. You have to pay to play, unfortunately for EBR developing the bike on the track means you may loose A LOT before you find a part or combination of parts, that really is an improvement. My thoughts were based on the various widely published shootouts done be various magazines in which actual weights were compared the same day on the same scales and the dyno runs done with in moments of each other on the same drum. Tuning potential is really what it comes down to. Our street bikes are detuned to last tens of thousands of miles, most race bikes are tuned to last a few hundred between major rebuilds. I wonder if the RX is on the upper end of its potential or or like the RSV4, towards the bottom of its potential with lots of exception 2.5 down spec parts. As we all know the faster you go the need for additional power to go faster becomes increases exponentially not linearly. I have to wonder what Ducati is doing to make huge power that EBR isn't or cant, since the base platform equipment is nearly identical with the EBR getting perhaps a slight edge in tractable power. | ||
| Trojan |
I have to wonder what Ducati is doing to make huge power that EBR isn't or cant, since the base platform equipment is nearly identical with the EBR getting perhaps a slight edge in tractable power. I'm certainly no engine expert, but I think it is due to extremely oversquare engine with short stroke/high revs and the desmo valves that allow them to rev so high. i'm sure there is all sorts of electronic trickery going on too | ||
| Court |
>>>I'm certainly no engine expert and >>>i'm sure . . . in the same post. This should be renamed the mutual benevolent speculation society. We'll see. :-) | ||
| Hughlysses |
Court, nature abhors a vacuum, and people, particularly Buell/EBR enthusiasts, abhor an information vacuum. I'm sure all of us wish EBR would give us some inkling of what's going on behind the scenes in WSBK. Is this really how they expected to perform this season, or have there been issues that have preventing them from performing as well as they expected? At least tell us "Just wait 'til the next race" or "Just wait a few races" or "Just wait 'til next season".  | ||
| Tpoppa |
I'm certainly no engine expert, but I think it is due to extremely oversquare engine with short stroke/high revs and the desmo valves that allow them to rev so high. i'm sure there is all sorts of electronic trickery going on too Yes. An exotic design. The end result is a V2 that has power delivery similar to that of an I4. Not the best street motor ( at least that what I've been told by 1199 owners), but it does well on the track. | ||
| Fast1075 |
A little insight into the difference between the EBR 1190 and the Ducati 1199r. I have no access to the rod length for either engine, but my best guess is the ducati is better on that point also. (pretty freakin' important if you don't want to pull pin bosses and break skirts). Ducati: Bore to stroke ratio is 1.84/1 EBR: Bore to stroke ratio is 1.57/1 At 12K rpm the piston speed Ducati: 4,787.4 fpm EBR: 5,314.9 fpm The only rpm limitation for the ducati valve train is the mechanical strength of the components. The ducati can have larger valves and turn more rpm, hence pump more fuel/air mixture. The laws of thermodynamics carry on from there. Matt is correct. | ||
| Classax |
By wonder, I meant generally race spec components have tighter spec, stronger, lighter/way more expensive parts. Even without such parts the AMA and Street bikes are going considerable faster, while I would presume making less power. What is it that seems to be holding EBR back from getting the engines sorted. Specifically, why is one bike destroying engines while the other is not(as quickly)? They are running the same components and ECU profiles are they not? I mention Ducati because not only are they making the power they need but they also seem to be having the reliability they need as well. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Right, so if you were building a world superbike winner that could be barely street legal and barely street usable, you build the 1199r. If you are building an amazing street bike that could be barely WSBK capable, you build the 1190RX. Ducati has already achieved the former. EBR has already achieved the latter. Ducati has had a lot of time to achieve the latter, and hasn't managed to make a lot of progress. Can EBR achieve the former? I don't know, but as someone who might own an EBR street bike, but who will never race in WSBK, I'm glad EBR is taking the path they did. The BMW 1000, while a hugely capable bike, is about as interesting to me as watching paint dry. They built a german version of a Japanese suberbike, and made it a little better for a little more money. Yawwwn. | ||
| Bads1 |
Ducati has had a lot of time to achieve the latter, and hasn't managed to make a lot of progress. Really?? | ||
| Sparky |
When WSBK and AMA SBK comes to Laguna Seca next month, perhaps we should compile a list of questions to which the responsible persons in each camp could provide interesting and hopefully revealing answers. I'm sure Erik will be there as well as crew chiefs. This would be an interesting topic by itself, eh? | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ That would be awesome. It will definitely be interesting to compare Larry and Cory's lap times and top speeds with Geoff and Aaron's. | ||
| Tpoppa |
Ducati has had a lot of time to achieve the latter, and hasn't managed to make a lot of progress. That is an uninformed statement. You can drink EBR kool-aid until you puke, but let me know when they eclipse the number of great streetbikes that Ducati has on the road. | ||
| Reepicheep |
That came across wrong... The Duc's are great streetbikes if you like big power up top and are willing to sacrifice lower RPM performance and fuel economy. Like the high performing inline fours do. The EBR motor makes almost as much peak power, and does not sacrifice midrange power and fuel economy. | ||
| Reepicheep |
It was more a statement about extreme oversquare motor architectures, which are first and foremost designed to be a racing motor, versus a relatively longer stroke engine, which is generally a better street bike. | ||
| Court |
>>>but as someone who might own an EBR street bike, but who will never race in WSBK, I'm glad EBR is taking the path they did. You nailed it. My only regret is that it has rendered the EBR/HERO racing team shirts I was going to put on e-Bay worthless. :-) | ||
| Tpoppa |
That came across wrong... The Duc's are great streetbikes if you like big power up top and are willing to sacrifice lower RPM performance and fuel economy. Like the high performing inline fours do. Think of it this way. All of Ducatis previous superbike motors were a generation behind the I4s & V4s in terms of top end. The proof was on the podium. The only way to build a V2 that would be competitive was to build this purpose built oversquare exotic design. It's built for top end at the cost of less low & mid. I wouldn't call that a failure on the part of Ducati. It's a calculated compromise to build a competitive V2. They could have built a 4 cyl that would likely have been competitive, but didn't want to upset their V2 fans. Now if EBR wants to stay focused on V2 streetbikes, they may stay with their current design. If their goal is to win races, they may arrive at a 4 cyl design or something like the oversquare Ducati V2. | ||
| Jaimec |
And if you like your gonads and inner thighs well done or char-broiled... | ||
| Classax |
Ducati builds an AMAZING street superbike in the form of the Diavel. The 1098 and 1198 are both great track bikes but high strung street machines. The Panigale is even more difficult to live with on public roads and worse in traffic. The EBR is a much more tracktable machine on the street and I find it easier to ride on the track than all but my little 300. I get to romp with various Duc's weekly and the EBR holds its own against all comers. The fact that there is a 240lbs, 40+yr, novice at the helm is an even greater testament to how good a bike it street guise the RX really is. Having ridden both the RX and both the 1199 and 899 for extended periods, I can see where Ducati has compromised streetablity for race potential and design form. On the RX everything is pretty much function over form, but the function is across a far wider band than its competition. In my mind that really says a lot because one really can't go wrong with any of the modern race replica liter bikes, regardless of MFG. Its only on the ragged edge of racing that they start to show differences. The fundamental questions is are the EBR's as good as they get or like the bikes of other MFG's if you throw a ton of parts at it will it be transformed into a racer that can win at the WSB level? Until they actually put a decent race weekend together we really can't know. (Message edited by Classax on June 10, 2014) | ||
| Reepicheep |
I was pointing out that you choose the failure you want... Ducati chose one EBR chose another, and my next bike (when I can afford it) will be an EBR, not a Duc. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Ducati can build whatever streetbikes they choose for whatever purpose. They're not constrained by one engine. How ridiculous is it to champion EBR for taking on WSBK with a lacklustre engine for the job then moan that others have exotic engines born from deep pockets. A fine example of the series being diminished by fans of the weak and poor entrant who come along and moan everyone else has great advantages. Like I keep saying. Get the f**k out of the series or put up and shut up! Rocket in England | ||
| Reepicheep |
Who knew it was so easy to bring down a great European institution.  | ||
| Classax |
Who says its lackluster? Until the team actually gets it working right, we don't know if it is or isn't? Who's moaning? I think the clearly stated points were A) its not quite an apples to apples comparison yet since the other MFG's have a significant head start on race component development, B) the ET-VT design itself may or may not have the same level of tuning potential as other engine designs and C)EBR's design philosophy may not lend itself well to the current WSB spec even after they develop a bunch of cool race kit. Until they do, no one, not even EBR can be sure. The series isn't being diminished , tarnished or otherwise besmirched by the presence of a team fast enough to make the grid but struggling to progress. That's racing. The put up is they keep showing up every race weekend, they may be last but they are there. We're at the half way mark and it been abysmal but I don't think EBR will quit unless the hired guns on that compose the Hero WSB team walk off the job. If and when that happens we will all have no choice but to shut up. In the mean time we get it some of the Brits think they should quit rather tarnish the elite reputation of WSB, as we celebrate the anniversary of D day and invasion of Normandy, I would like to thank all the brave men and women who do impossible things, against impossible odds in the face of impossible opposition because the goal they have before them will not afford them the luxury of quitting. I would say that its the American way but that's not entirely true. Its the way of every successful person or enterprise. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'm certain nobody stopped coming to WSBK because the presence of EBR has besmirched an otherwise perfect experience. I'm also certain somebody who would not have otherwise come to the races came only because EBR was competing. And I'm finally certain that the net effect of the above two points amounted to 1/1000 of a rounding error in the overall economic picture of WSBK. Seems silly to get upset about a team choosing to race. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"but they are there." yes, they are there...watching from the sidelines as they fail to qualify | ||
| Court |
>>>Seems silly to get upset about a team choosing to race. The small mind is easily entertained and sees only the closet piece of candy on the table before it. I think of all the things that have happened to me in my life from sports to military to flying to academia and how poor most my early efforts were. I have my view of all this. Others have their own. I'm good with that. | ||
| Hotcad |
I am really enjoying the EBR race team and it's struggles. It's part of racing! The progress will come, Erik and team are top notch. Watching Corvette Racing grow from a novice team in 1998 to what it is today has been fun and I am as excited to watch EBR learn and grow. Go EBR! | ||
| Tpoppa |
So far, this WSB effort is just slightly ahead of the ill fated XBRR. | ||
| Desert_uly |
It is so sad that EBR has tarnished Rocket in UK Sponsored WSB.I personally did not closely follow WSB until 2014 and I must give the EBR/Hero team credit for generating my interest. Of course I had high expectations of podium finishes after a few races but the reality is the task is difficult and immediate results only happen in 2 hour movies. Also, I was a Los Angeles Lakers fan for over 30 years but with their poor performance this year they have tarnished the entire NBA so I will choose a new team, maybe San Antonio? |
