| Author | Message | ||
     Crusty |
Obviously, EBR doesn't know the proper way to race in WSBK. Just look at their results! So I've given the idea a bit of thought and come up with these conclusions. First, they should get rid of that engine. The only reasonable way to make the required amount of horsepower and torque is to use a D.O.H.C. I-4. They also need a different frame. The concept of putting fuel in the frame might be acceptable for a street bike, but a real race bike should keep the fuel in a nice shapely container above the engine. That ZTL front brake is also a joke. Get rid of it and put on Brembos like everybody else does. Now that the basic architecture of the bike is right, EBR should find the WSBK equivalent of Graves Yamaha, and hire them to develop and race the bike. They can't enter the bike in an actual Race until they have perfected it so that it will be fast enough to contest for the win in it's debut outing. Now, instead of obviously inferior American racers, EBR should find some ex-Moto GP riders whose careers are in decline; or better yet, a couple of up-and-coming BSB riders. One of each is probably the best idea. Once all of that is accomplished, EBR should revive the old Buell slogan, Different In Every Sense. That's the only sensible way to race. Sometimes I really get tired of all the negative armchair quarterbacks | ||
| Trojan |
That's the only sensible way to race. many a true word spoken in jest  Maybe they don't need an IL4 (a V4 would work too) but it would help. The rest of your theory is actually about spot on if they want to win, or even get close to it, in WSB. Like it or not, the rules favour a particular type of bike. Once upon a time it was twins, now it isn't. If you want to win you build a bike capable of winning by exloiting the rules available. Ask Aprilia. EBR should find some ex-Moto GP riders whose careers are in decline; or better yet, a couple of up-and-coming BSB riders. Please tell me how that would be a disadvantage over what they have now? There are plenty of young, hungry riders looking for a ride in a world championship series that would be better than either fo the current pilots I think. A short walk down pit lane would find one American who fits the bill (PJ Jacobsen) and there are plenty more good riders in BSB/AMA/DMG(although whether they would be willing to spend a year on the EBR right now is debatable unless the money was seriously good). Whether you like it or not, The current EBr setupo is not going to win a WSb race any time in the near future unless there is a seismic change in the rules. If they want to race in WSb and be taken seriously they have to build what will win or get off the pot. | ||
| Pwnzor |
If you want to win you build a bike capable of winning by exloiting the rules available. That's what I keep thinking when I read postings by the Marquez-haters claiming it's the bike doing all the work. | ||
| Classax |
I would buy an EBR with a V4. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
That's what I keep thinking when I read postings by the Marquez-haters claiming it's the bike doing all the work. Seeing as I'm the only one making the comment about Marquez being on the best bike, I'd appreciate it if you'd not refer to me as a Marquez hater. It's a shame he's a Spaniard as the series is overrun with them. Well Alien level it is. But hater I am no such thing. He's going to be a great ambassador for the sport. He's likeable. He's funny. He's courteous. He's a sportsman. He's great to watch because he's a great racer. I just don't like the nice little pip squeak beating my mate Rossi Stoner should take a look at Marquez. It's a good clue as to why he got so much stick. No one I've heard yet has a bad word for Marquez. Why would I be so stupid to be the first and only one probably. I wouldn't. And yes, in my opinion, despite what Matt says. A subject we discussed only a week ago. Marquez is on the best bike where the Yamaha is at least .25 sec slow. Anyone, even Rossi and Lorenzo, aren't able to keep the Honda at bay in Marquez's hands. I'd like to see it the other way around. Rossi on Honda. Marquez on Yamaha. Then maybe I'd be convinced he's unbeatable if he won on the current Yamaha. Rocket in England | ||
| Tpoppa |
With technology as it stands today, an I4 is a superior motor to a V2...both on the track and on the street The V2 low end torque advantage only exists when the I4 is tuned for top end. See a dyno for a 2014 Kawasaki Z1000 and then tell me they lack bottom end power. I like the power delivery of V2s, but an I4 can be tuned to have the same power delivery. | ||
| Fast1075 |
The inline four can be configured to mimic the power deliver of a twin AKA Yamaha crossplane, Or electronically managed to mimic a twin by stagger firing cylinders AKA Kawasaki. The "other" V-2 has some distinct advantages in power production. Shorter stroke, allowing higher rpm/increased pumping capacity, and a valvetrain that does not rely on springs to close the valves. Beyond the obvious "float proof" valves, the design allows ramp rates of the camshafts that are impossible with conventional valvetrain. Making power is not the issue. Making power and keeping all the oily parts inside the engine is the issue. | ||
| Hughlysses |
One thing that continues to puzzle me is the alleged braking issue. OK, maybe something's enough different about WSBK competition that the brakes that work fine in AMA Superbike don't hold up in WSBK. If that's true, it's logical that the brakes would work for a few laps, and then give up as more laps are accumulated and the brakes heat up. If that's true, then the EBR qualifying times should be much better than their race times, as the brakes should provide adequate braking for at least a few laps, giving enough time to get a good qualifying lap. Under racing conditions, I'd expect the bikes to do OK for the first few laps and then struggle as their brake peformance fades. However, that's not true. EBR's race lap times seem to be right on par with their practice lap times.  | ||
| Trojan |
And yes, in my opinion, despite what Matt says. A subject we discussed only a week ago. Marquez is on the best bike where the Yamaha is at least .25 sec slow. I didn't mean that the Honda isn't marginally the better bike at the moment in MotoGP (although the Yamaha also had some advantages over the Honda in handling). What I said was that Marquez would win on the Yamaha just as easily as he has on the Honda. To be honest he'd be close on the Ducati too  Back to WSb  I still think that EBR should consider withdrawing from at least a couple of rounds so that they can properly test and find out what is causing the problems. Racing is actually a very poor method of testing and developing because you get such limited track time and most of the parts are almost constantly in transit or being packed/unpacked. You need to spend time at a track with unlimited track time and with factory personnel present to identify and fix the constant 'minor' problems they are suffering from. There is no point travelling to meetings (at great expense) only for one rider to sit around spectating and the other to finish last in pretty much every session, so why not just take the bike and entire team to the factory for 2-4 weeks and get it sorted out properly? At the moment it is just doing major damage to the reputation of EBR, the sponsors and the riders with no prospect of that improving in the forseeable future. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking time out to get the bike fixed. It may yet be that the bike simply isn't the right bike for WSB. There are loads of desirable road bikes that wouldn't stand a chance racing in WSb, although that doesn't make them less desirable for the road. The KTM RC8R, BMW HP2, Bimota Tesi are just three of my fantasy garage that wouldn't make the grade in WSB but whose reputation is solid despite that. If you race and don't perfom you look a lot worse than never racing unfortunately. | ||
| M2typhoon |
"If you race and don't perform you look a lot worse than never racing unfortunately." I think it's understood by most/all of us that this is just testing to them. Yeah, it looks bad in the result column but, They needed to find the week spots of the bike and I'm sure they have a list a mile long at this point. If I were Hero... well I'm not and I can't say what they are thinking. There is an obvious driving force behind being in WSBK that no one is announcing. "I still think that EBR should consider withdrawing from at least a couple of rounds so that they can properly test and find out what is causing the problems. I have to very much disagree. They have absolutely no data for these tracks, none, 0. I see the FB posts and I keep seeing "glad we finished both races". This is for data acquisition purposes. After being in racing for over 25 years I have learned that racing data is the most valuable tool in your garage. Suspension, engine, and braking data in race conditions is only achievable in race conditions not matter how you look at it. | ||
| Trojan |
They have absolutely no data for these tracks There is no point travelling across the world to a track just to gather data when you either don't start or go so slow that the data is meaningless. They need to sort the reliability and get some basic speed before any data will have any meaning at all. If they get the bike up to speed and return to the same tracks next 30kmh faster than all their previous data will be no good to them anyway. trying to develop a bike every two weeks working out of flight cases is never ever going to work I'm afraid. They either need to take a month out to sort the bike or continue struggling like this all year. I see the FB posts and I keep seeing "glad we finished both races". That could just be the only positive they can pull out of yet another poor weekend. I think it's understood by most/all of us that this is just testing to them. Yeah, it looks bad in the result column but, It is NOT understood by the huge majority of race watching public. All they see is a factory entry that either can't make the grid or trails around at the back. This is probably doing irrepairable damage to EBR's sales prospects worldwide at the moment. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I noticed one odd thing this weekend on EBR's webpage. There is no mention of Cory West's AMA Superbike effort and the WSBK section seems very out of date. Most of the photos in the racing section show Geoff and Danny from last year. It seems EBR has higher priorities besides racing this year, and that's understandable, but it is disappointing. | ||
| M2typhoon |
"There is no point traveling across the world to a track just to gather data when you either don't start or go so slow that the data is meaningless." Then give me a legit answer to how they would get the telemetry for these tracks then? I'm not quite sure if you know how GPS data acq. systems work and I would be nearly sure you've never used such a system since they are ungodly expensive systems. | ||
| Trojan |
Then give me a legit answer to how they would get the telemetry for these tracks then? I'm not quite sure if you know how GPS data acq. systems work and I would be nearly sure you've never used such a system since they are ungodly expensive systems. Do you think that Suzuki/Ducati/Kawasaki arrived at Sepang with no data? Obviously you don't understand modern electronics systems or you would know that you don't have to be at the track to programme the system with at least a basic setup to deal with the layout (information that can be supplied by Marelli and every other ECU maker at WSB level). If you base your data on a 2'11" lap time and then turn up next year with a vastly different bike capable of 2'5" then your previous data is junk. What you neede first and foremost is a bike capable of running at race winning speeds, THEN you perfect your data. | ||
| Jscott |
In all reality the thing EBR and Hero should do is start giving the team principles and manager some ultimatums. I'm beginning to get the distinct impression that they were sold a bill of goods by some swindlers incapable of running a professional WSBK team. What happened to "B" bikes? I can't fathom why Geoff continues to sit out races because of technical issues. Lack of parts? | ||
| Trojan |
What happened to "B" bikes? I can't fathom why Geoff continues to sit out races because of technical issues. Lack of parts? WSB frules dictate a 'single bike' per rider, so there are no spare bikes or B bikes any longer. However........Every team carries enough spare parts to build at least one spare bike and is allowed to keep a rolling chassis pretty much complete. Most teams can build a spare bike between sessions no problem, so what the trouble is with this team is anyones guess. Is it the same 'minor electrical problem' every time or an entirely new problem each time? I agree about the ultimatums. It seems to me so far that they have gone along with the 'it is only a learning year' just too strictly, and have forgotten that they are there to race! I looked at the pictures someone posted from the paddock at Donington, and all the techs were standing around chatting with hadns in pockets as if they had taken 1 and 2 on the grid and had no problems! I know the team are Italian but someone needs to inject some Anglo Saxon drive into them soon! | ||
| M2typhoon |
"What you need first and foremost is a bike capable of running at race winning speeds, THEN you perfect your data." Sorry, that's not how it works. Not for a completely new bike. If you ran all last season with unraced chassis X and then a new chassis, unraced chassis Y and you choose to use chassis Y, all of your previously acquired data sets are junk so you need to start from scratch. If you went from Honda to Yamaha, that is a different story. "Obviously you don't understand modern electronics systems or you would know that you don't have to be at the track to programme the system with at least a basic setup to deal with the layout (information that can be supplied by Marelli and every other ECU maker at WSB level)." I understand how the data acq system works and it no ECU. the ECU is a tiny part of the system. There are recorders on every part of the bike. Forks, shocks, brakes... There's no way you get that data without being on track for a chassis that's never been on track. Each track has it's own data points where the GPS logs info. It's different for every track. I've worked with them as many other people I still have relationships with have and the story is still the same. The basic set-up may be able to get them around the track but not with any kind of speed. And you spelled program incorrectly.   | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
and you used week instead of weak, get off his nuts about spelling "They needed to find the week spots of the bike and I'm sure they have a list a mile long at this point." | ||
| M2typhoon |
^You need to capitalize that A in the beginning of your sentence if you going to go there. | ||
| Wymaen |
Don't start sentences with conjunctions, Hybrid. M2, proofread before hitting 'POST.' Oh, wait, this isn't the grammar thread. I think we can agree that until this forum ditches Comic Sans as the default font, spelling and grammatical errors are definitely low-priority on the list of things to get het up about.  | ||
| Court |
>>>Oh, wait, this isn't the grammar thread. Thank goodness. Court Former State Spelling Chimp | ||
| Wymaen |
Chimp, chomp, champ, or chump? | ||
| Jscott |
What do we know about Claudio Quintarelli? What do we know about Giulio Bardi? Did anybody else from the AMA team make the transition to WSBK other than the riders? | ||
| Classax |
Ciphering how to spell and such ain’t the same as ciphering how to put yore good spelled words two gather.  | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I understand how the data acq system works and it no ECU. the ECU is a tiny part of the system. There are recorders on every part of the bike. Forks, shocks, brakes... There's no way you get that data without being on track for a chassis that's never been on track. Each track has it's own data points where the GPS logs info. It's different for every track. I've worked with them as many other people I still have relationships with have and the story is still the same. The basic set-up may be able to get them around the track but not with any kind of speed. And you spelled program incorrectly. Funny thing is, in an engine problem topic I'm guilty of giving really bad advice due to a lack of knowledge apparently. You must be shit at racing Matt. Best not mention the bloody war again eh  Rocket in England | ||
| Xb984r |
"Sorry, that's not how it works. Not for a completely new bike. If you ran all last season with unraced chassis X and then a new chassis, unraced chassis Y and you choose to use chassis Y, all of your previously acquired data sets are junk so you need to start from scratch. If you went from Honda to Yamaha, that is a different story. " This is not a completely new bike, that excuse is getting old. EBR's racing effort thus far has been a joke, How did Aprilia do with its all new bike its first race? | ||
| Ljm |
At the risk of agreeing with Matt, speed seems to be a consistent problem. I don't understand. From a street riders perspective, mine will go faster than Aaron's trap speeds, and QUICKLY. Haven't sustained them, but getting there is no problem. Where is the disconnect? | ||
| Classax |
^I concur, I was skewered early on for suggesting the street bikes were trapping faster than a WSB prep machine but as more RS and RX's hit the streets its clear that acceleration and top speeds are clearly higher than what's being seen in WSB. I don't think EBR "can get there from here with off the shelf MM electronics " without paying a specialist to sort it out. It hearkens back to the early days of the Helicon and the ECU troubles it first had, and the months of problems and engine failures that occurred before it was sorted out. Even still the lack of speed just doesn't add up. | ||
| 46champ |
Lack of speed does add up if the ECU is the problem. Before anyone flames me that statement is purely conjecture. Like most things in this thread, but it does make it interesting. | ||
| Fast1075 |
"Without paying a specialist to sort it out." This isn't a street bike where a "better map" works. You need someone who can navigate the software, and understand not only the engine dynamics, but all the inputs related to chassis dynamics. A daunting task requiring immense experience,extreme attention to detail, and Vulcan-like logic. I have no idea how much an electronics engineer on a SBK team gets paid, but I'll bet it is quite a hefty sum for a truly successful one. In the electronics age, no one wins without a good support team. |
