| Author | Message | ||
     Dullorb |
I definitely love my S3T but the big deal for me isn't that I got a tuber it's that I got a tourer. I've only gotten to take it to LA once and I rode to Ohio a couple times but haven't gotten nearly the mileage I want to yet. When I heard they were dropping all the old bikes for the XBs... To be frank I was thinking that it was over for me and Buell as soon as my S3 gave out, of course last summer hearing Erik talking about the 12R had me rethinking that but I wish there were more than six people out there looking for a sport/tourer. I tell you I was downtown Cincinnati and this guy pulls up next to me. He was late middle age in a $60k car with a drop dead gorgeous gal 20 years younger than him in the passenger seat and he leans over and tells me he wished he had my bike. Oh Yeah. I know it was the T that put it over the top. We got to brainwash Erik into another T. | ||
| Bomber |
Make your own, sez I . . . .lots of manufacturers offering the requisite parts . . . I betcha we see a couple of good home-grown 12Ts before the end of the summer | ||
| Mikej |
Just need to find a place for an extra two gallons of gas. And a bladder in a bag with a pump won't cut it. | ||
| Crusty |
I also keep hoping for an XB12T. Of course, since I feel that the S3-T is the most beautiful motorcycle ever made, it would have to be really beautiful to top it. I ran into an Aprilia Futura rider in Daytona who loved the way the Firebolt felt and looked, but wouldn't buy one because it was too small for his needs. A couple of years ago, I asked Erik about a successor to the S3-T, and he told me that Sport Tourers don't sell. I think that they would. I know a few people who would buy one, and I know a few people who sold their S3s and got BMWs when all the recall troubles were happening. BMW offers bags for all their models, and they sell quite a few Sport Tourers in this country, and Yamaha has a waiting list for the FJ1300. If Buell builds one, I think it would sell. If it comes out soon enough, I'll buy one instead of finding a left over S3-T. | ||
| Sarodude |
Maybe the answer is a Factory Touring Kit... -Saro | ||
| Leftcoastal |
I'm with you guys in hoping for a 'T' version of the XB12. It would have to be a physically larger bike than the current XB's, with more wheelbase and passenger/luggage capacity. It would need a more upright seating position for long miles and lots more fuel capacity too. Thats a LOT to ask from BMC as it would incur the HUGE expense of designing and building a completely new machine. I'd buy one in a heartbeat, but i'm probably one of the total of 17 who would also be interested. My RS with the S2T fiberglass and narrow saddlebags will do just fine for now - of the many Buells I've ridden, it is by far the most comfortable, relic that it is. | ||
| Impulse_101 |
While everyone would love to see a new sport touring bike, especially if it was based on the watercooled V-Rod engine with a more aggressive 6 speed gearbox. The R&D costs of coming up with that bike would be phenominal. So I have to say that the idea of a "T" kit is pretty interesting. The Question is what would be involved in that kit. The XB's already have the oil cooler and fan to help with cooling. The bike will need more gas capacity, luggage, and a seat with room for two up riding for real distances. A longer and more stable wheel base would be nice so that shifting around on the bike doesn't send you across a lane. The add higher bars and some kind of faring that can actually keep some wind off of you. Sounds like a total redesign to me that neither of the current XB's would be suited for. If you dumped the idea of a second rider and changing the wheelbase things become a bit more realistic but you'd still be a lot more sport than touring. So the question becomes, "Would a half assed solution be any solution at all?" | ||
| Bomber |
sounds like you folks need to buy an S3T, and transplant an XB mill into it . . . .or, mebbe, skip the transplant, and just buy an S2/3 | ||
| Whodom |
One thing I've often thought- right or wrong, Buells still have a reputation (outside of XB owners) for being unreliable. A guy buying a sport bike might tolerate this, or a guy buying a street fighter might tolerate it, but a guy buying a sport-tourer to ride ~2000 miles cross country in a week can't and won't. Is it really "Sport-tourers don't sell" or "Buell's previous sport-tourers haven't sold?". Now that Buell is slowly building a reputation for reliability, maybe a Buell sport-tourer would sell. Hugh | ||
| Country |
I think Eric needs to go look at the numbers again. All of your manufacturer's are selling Sport Tourers like crazy. And they keep making new "updated" models. I think that it would be worth Buell's money to invest in developing one. I would buy it. | ||
| Mikej |
Sometimes there's more to the actual applied definition of a word within a corporate environment than there is to a realistic understanding of the word in use by the general public or target market. What many or most of us would call "Sport Touring" may mean something entirely different within the chambers of the corporate "Motor" company. | ||
| Bomber |
Country -- define "like crazy" . .. . you may find that the numbers aren't as large as you may thing . . . . Buell's past reliability problems no doubt impacted S3 sales, but there's a reason that Yamamha is demanding upfront deposits on 1300s (they've been burned before on "bring it and they will come" efforts, cuz they didn't come afterall) | ||
| Pdxs3t |
What about doing a special run on a XB based Sport Touring bike. Produce 2500 bikes (50 per state). I would bet "all" bikes would be sold in a very short amount of time. | ||
| Bads1 |
 Hows that??? | ||
| Whodom |
What would it really take to make an XB12T? It needs more fuel capacity, a longer wheel base, and a longer tail section for seating area. Maybe milder steering geometry. There was a photo of an XB12S over at the XB Yahoo group with an extended swing arm; that's one needed piece. Any easy way to increase fuel capacity? Under-seat tank? A new rear sub-frame to give more seating room wouldn't be a big deal. Anything else? | ||
| Davefl |
I thing they should extend the frame. A three-inch stretch would give you more fuel capacity. The rear motor support would have to be redesigned but while you are redesigning a frame really not a big deal. Also a longer swing arm to increase wheelbase for more stability. Now that I think about it I should just keep my S3. | ||
| Impulse_101 |
Bomber, I got my S3T and I can't wait to ride it to Uke's, or for that matter anywhere else! But the only way I want to go is up and a new Buell XB12T in the driveway would be the only thing that could be better than my S3T. JT | ||
| Henrik |
From what we've discussed before, even the "big sellers" in sport touring don't sell that many bikes total. And it's a bitch of a market segment. Sport tourers want it all - preferably for no cost increase. Look what bikes a Buell Sport tourer would be up against: Honda VFR, Yamaha FJR 1300, BMW - several models, Aprilia Futura, KTM ?? (the ugly one  ). All bikes that get good to rave reviews with all the bells and whistles in accessories and comfort. Not sure it'd be a wise business decision - I'd love to see/ride/own one of course Henrik | ||
| One |
This idea of a XB12T is going to fill this entire section. I'm just real happy about my S3T and the great deal I was able to swing last year because some riders don't really know how good a tourer this can be. Last June I went to BMW to test ride and get a free knife. Well they were out of knives but I got the ride. It was great...indicators for the heated hand-grips (a H-D acc. @ $300 plus), an adjustable windscreen, smoooth 6-speed, gear indicators, huge touring bags, lots of horsepower, etc. BUT almost no personality. It was fun but almost exactly the same experience as a 530i. The sales force was friendly and all but we spent more time outside looking at my Buell and discussing it than making a case to by the $ 14,300 Tourer What was my point anyway...Oh ya, let's all enjoy what we have with a quiet little smirk until the pedestrians figure it out.   | ||
| Court |
Buell is capable of building a very capable touring motorcycle. Making it an XB variant might make that task more challenging. | ||
| Crusty |
I agree. I just want an S3-T with the power and reliability of an XB. I WILL have a Buell Sport Tourer as my next bike. Whether it's a leftover S3-T or something newer is up to Buell. With all the upgrades and refinements, an S3-T (say an '02) should be as reliable as an anvil. No other motorcycle has ever grabbed me like the S3-T did. When I traded my '98 in for my M2, I was looking for more dependability. With all the improvements (new isolators, exhaust hanger, metal gaskets, etc.), I could have made my S3 as dependable as my M2 is. | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
As someone that just put 900 miles on his XB in 2 days of riding...Why does it need a longer wheelbase? The extended fuel range I can agree to though I will admit due to the rod in my leg the fuel range fits with when I need to give it a break at the moment...If it weren't for that I could easily put in more milage on the 12. Granted you can't pack stuff and a passenger but then I prefer to not carry passengers anyways. Not on a sportbike that is. Even loaded down with 4 days worth of clothes, tool roll, laptop and megachain lock the bike stayed very stable and balanced in the twisties. Didn't seem to notice the added weight or drag of the bags. Still managed about 50-55 mpg depending on my cruising speed. All in all I was very happy with the bike. | ||
| Twodogs |
I had the guys at Hal,s build an XB based engine and stuff it in my S-3. What's the big deal? X-1 crank, XB pistons ,jugs,heads, 44mm carb, a ton of machining and voila! My very own S3X1XB12RT. Oh yeah, this was done in 2003, one of four prototype predecessors to the XB12. Runs like a scalded dog all day long......see profile and look at the big cyl fins. DOG | ||
| Bomber |
hey, dogs . . . .zat pic taken up near Angle Fire New Mexico? | ||
| Court |
Crusty: You got it . . . there is NOTHING like touring on a Buell. I let Henrik's S3 slip away, but he proved what the S3, in my eyes, was capable of being. I'm betting on the Team at Buell. Court | ||
| Andys |
I agree, those Buell guys can build anything they want. I've met them. Those horribly underpaid engineers and factory workers love bikes and they believe in what they do. However... Something always stops them from going all the way. And it's that something that keeps me away. I'll never understand what keeps Harley from just opening the checkbook. They spend less on Buell then clothing (or so it feels). | ||
| Court |
>>>>They spend less on Buell then clothing (or so it feels). Whoa ponies. True statement there. But keep in mind they sell something like 7,325 items of clothing at a hefty markup in about 174 countries. As passionate as I am about Buell, I hope the metric they are judged by never becomes the ability to compete with revenues/profits generated by anything from halter tops to lighters with a HD logo. The one fly in the HD ointment is motorcycles...they complicate the entire buiness model and make the smallest contribution to profits. Motorcycles require lots of enigineering (the t-shirt is a pretty sorted out concept) and motorcycle require lots of gov't sign offs (as opposed to being legally bound to say "100% Cotton" and being done) and motorcycles usher the liabilty monster in the corporate door (I didn't know you should look both ways and brake before crossing a highway intersection) whereas HD has yet to be sued in a "self inflicted t-shirt strangulation"  [I know I am subject to being corrected there] The Buell engineers are doing fine. I'm making well over 5X what I was at Buell and if the call came, I'd go in a heartbeat. I've the good fortune of knowing BOTH most the folks at Buell and a bunch of folks who earn 7 figure incomes and are fairly miserable. Work with Abe or Dave U for a day and you'll see why most folks at Buell would work for free. Don't be fooled to thinking the $$ drive it all. Also, Buell is being able to fund some very neat development. Court | ||
| Spooky |
Court, I'll try to choke myself the next time I put one of those Gap, I mean H-D shirts on. Plus I'll do it at the dealership. | ||
| Andys |
Hi Court, I understand all that and agree, but I'm talking about something slightly different. Motorcycles are all about emotion. No one needs a motorcycle. So if Harley wants to be in the motorcycle business I feel they need to step up a bit. Motorcycle companies must race. They must race at the highest level. Even General Motors is faced with the reality that racing is only way to get name recognition and is pondering when to jump into F1. http://www.autoextremist.com/ Admittedly, Buell isn't GM, but if Harley wants (and that's the important part) Buell to succeed as a real motorcycle company then they must race. I'm glad to hear that the engineers are making better money today and I do understand why they'd do it for free (but that's not an excuse). I truly appreciate those guys up there, special people doing fun, amazing work. Everytime I see one of those XB12 ads in a magazine I stare at it for a few seconds wanting one. Yet something stops me. And I'm not sure what it is (discounting the lack of a job). I'd love to watch a Buell superbike run with everyone else on the world stage (AMA & WSBK). Although I may find Honda's CBR1000RR to be an amazing bike, I have no idea who designed and built it, but I would know every guy/gal who touched my XB998 V4 Superbike. Harley's got the money. Now they just have to want. | ||
| Bomber |
While I'll agree that racing can add a huge amount of credibility, a publically-held motor company that's selling all they can make (which seems to either be reality or mindset, depending on who you ask) would be hard-pressed to explain a racing program to it's shareholders | ||
| Andys |
Not for Harley to race, but for Buell to race. I too see no point in having the Harley name out there. I believe that the market they're trying to reach watches a bunch of racing (or at least follows it) and that's where Buell needs to be if they want to sell more than 10,000 bikes a year and change people's perceptions of Buell. I understand the stockholder point of view, but they are also in business to make money. Doesn't Buell have to "stand on its own" too? And I feel one great way to do so is for them to race. But they have to want it. I can't see them changing anyone's perceptions without it. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Right on, AndyS, which makes this picture from the Pits of Daytona this year so interesting on so many levels:  quote from Ducati.com
| ||
| Andys |
I don't get why the Davidsons were there. Why do they care? | ||
| Crusty |
Possibly, but does it have to be road racing? Harley is doing OK drag racing and Flat Tracking. And even though a lot of fans would love to see a real roadracing effort, they're still selling everything they make at a pretty damn good price. Also, BMW is doing all right. All they currently race is in the Battle of the Blimps/Boxer Cup. BMW hasn't been a real force in roadracing since before WW2. Buell is going to race in Formula Extreme this year. I just hope that the Mothership gives them enough money to do the job right, but down deep in my heart, I don't think they will. | ||
| Bomber |
Crusty . . .don't say that Bimmers ain't been a force since the war to Reg Pridmore . . . .he'd likely take offense | ||
| Dullorb |
Produce 2500 bikes (50 per state). I would bet "all" bikes would be sold in a very short amount of time. From the numbers I got the lifetime run for the S3T models was under 2000 bikes. Even if you add in the last year of S3's with optional hardbags 2500 is lot in comparison. | ||
| Andys |
But at 2500 units there is no way to make enough of a profit that can be turned back into R&D. Don't get me wrong, I liked the S3T, but I already had a CBR1000F that did the same thing. So I bought a S1W. Buell is aiming for the 17-25 age group with the XB. For them to attract that type of clientle they need to race. Not Formula Extreme, but Superbike. They need to show us that they have the capability to run with everyone else. Although we complained about Harley's VR1000 project, I've got to give that they were out there. I'd love to see Harley allow Erik to put the unused portion of his brain towards a cleansheet Superbike. Better yet, I'd love to see Buell sell enough bikes to allow them to move out of the Harley dealerships that, for the most part, are ruining the experience. We have only seen a small piece of what Erik and the boys/girls are capable of. The guy knows his sh*t (why else did 3 marriages fail?). I can't imagine what he's come up with given the right amount of financial support. | ||
| Turnagain |
someone should remind Court to tell Willie (and Erik) the story of when Henry (II) wanted to buy Enzo's company, but Enzo didn't want to sell, so he (Henry) went out and built his own World Beater.  wouldn't it be nice if Buell could produce a lineup like this? oh yeah, touring thread -- hummmm.... | ||
| Crusty |
Bomber, the first Racing school I attended was taught by Reg Pridmore (Denver, CO Ca. 1974). While he was an amazing rider, and very underrated, the BMWs were in a lesser class(Superbike) than the premier class (Formula 750). At the time BMW dominated its class, there was no factory involvement, and nobody else had the money that Butler & Smith (the BMW importers) spent on their bikes, with the possible exception of Cook Neilson on the California Hot Rod Ducati. During the mid '70s, Superbike was a side show comparable to BOTT or Pro Thunder. The real efforts were competing against the TZ 750 Yamahas. Turnagain, I'd consider a Duck, if only they didn't have that unnecessarily complex, Rube Goldberg inspired valve actuation system. I've never had to adjust the valves on my Buell. | ||
| Kcs2 |
I have to agree with Andy that the XB's are geared to the 17-25 crowd. I like the look of these bikes, but when I was in the market to buy a bike last year, they didn't appeal to me due to their small size. Additionally, I demo tested an XB12R last summer and enjoyed the bike, but was happy to get back on my S2 due to the more stretched out riding position. The majority of Buell owners I've met are over the age of 30 and enjoy trips that that a "T" bike would excel at. If Buell produced a bike that based on the new XB's, but was similar in size and style to bikes like the Ducati ST2/3/4, or Aprilia Futura they would probably sell pretty well. My 2 cents. Neill | ||
| José_quiñones |
The next "sporty" tourer won't say Buell on the tank, it will say "HD". However, even HD's "sporty" tourers have never been great sellers, like the FRXT, FXDXT, etc. Imagine a FXRT or smaller type bike with a Revo motor, it would be very appealing to the sport touring crowd, like myself. | ||
| Dullorb |
I do remember that 20 or so years ago I liked the look of the Katana grew out of it mostly and I never looked at a sportbike again till I saw the S3T. It was perfect for me but I know that I'm just a clapper on the bell curve so I rarely get catered to. | ||
| Jreichner |
I have a S3T that I just love and I too wish that Buell would take the XB12 and have a "T" option. This is basically what a Thunderbolt is. I believe that there was a period of time the Buell made a S3T but then it became a S3 with the touring package. If they could do that again, it would be great. But I think that the XB platform would need a slight redesign to even come close to the S3T. As for reliability, I have only had one "major" problem with my S3T and that was that rocker box gaskets. Besides that the bike has been perfect and I ride the hell out of it. There are other reasons why "Tourers don't sell" and that is because (In my opinion) they are sold in HD dealerships. I feel that if they take them out...and they are advertised to the proper segment then they will sell. And if Buell would put a little more in to accessories I think they would do very well. Because sport tourers love to customize. Isn't that how HD makes such a killing on all of their bikes? I mean, I was looking at a HD catalog the other day and How long has the VROD been on the market? You should just see how much you can customize it. I honestly would never want to part with my S3T but if I did, the Futura would be my first choice. Ducati ST4 would be my second. Come on Eric, please build another "Sport Tourer". | ||
| Stubby |
Maybe I'm wrong about this, but isn't the Road King offered by Heefalump Dumpaloon a touring bike? Stub | ||
| Steveford |
Stubby, Are you a fellow Wonder Warthog fan? If Buell builds a successor to the S3 which means a bike that will fit two normal sized adults, I'll buy one and so will quite a few others who have passed on the XB series simply because they're solo only and too small at that for many. | ||
| Darthane |
XBs are only too small for you big people. we fit just fine!  Jreichner - the XBs would need more than a 'slight' redesign to even approach the S3's size and comfort for sport touring. I've done some good, long rides on the Firebolt, and with a saddlebag/tailbag and tankbag, it holds plenty of stuff and is quite comfortable enough for 500+ miles. Bryan | ||
| Dullorb |
You're spending too much time in Japan, it's rubbing off on you shortrod. | ||
| Dullorb |
I just noticed that the pic by badS1 is from Japan!!! God, I want to take my bike there, too bad the ticket for the bike is about three times the ticket for myself. | ||
| Darthane |
LOL...I didn't notice that..."Byuueru" Buell in katakana. Where was that taken? Dull - the roads here are absolutely unbelieveable. Of course, I'd be scared to death to ride on any of them because people have a REAL problem with staying on their own goddamned side of the road and most of them are only what I would consider to be one lane to begin with! Still thinking about getting my int'l license to I can go for a test ride or two next trip. | ||
| Jreichner |
Darthane...I know that making a XB a true sport tourer would take a little more than a simple redesign. It was just a figure of speech. You stated that you can ride 500 + miles on your XB...How tall are you? Just curious because I took one out for a test ride which lasted about 45 minutes and I don't think that I could really take a long trip (meaning about 4+ hrs drive time) on that bike. I just feel too cramped. Especially in my legs. | ||
| One |
Dear Turnagain, Thanks for the nice link to Ducati. I guess one could consider their touring bike if the darn two-stroke motor didn't smoke so much.   | ||
| Az28 |
I just bought an xb12r. I F Buell made a s. Touring model I would have bought that instead. Just my 2 cents. | ||
| Dullorb |
Dull - the roads here are absolutely unbelieveable. Of course, I'd be scared to death to ride on any of them because people have a REAL problem with staying on their own goddamned side of the road and most of them are only what I would consider to be one lane to begin with! I've been on those roads on a pushbike. I was very impressed with the fact that they actually notice bicycles, (of course the fact that I'm taller than almost everything on the road and probably weigh about the same as their little cars might have had something to do w/ it.) But as I was pedalling into some tunnel going through whichever mountain I would look at the old road that was replaced by said tunnel twisting up the side of the mountain and think wistfully of my poor lonely Buell. But not for too long. There was to too much to do. Crucial element to that trip. Panniers, yup saddlebags made that trip possible, no trip is complete with out them. The aftermarket mods to my Trek to get that 'T' model status paid off.  XB12T 4 EVER | ||
| Lornce |
My first ride in Japanese traffic was on a Ducati F1 production racer complete with bellowing Verlicchi pipe, open velocity stacked dell orto's and about 15 degrees of steering lock (or so it seemed) following vague directions over unknown roads through the heart of Tokyo.... during rush hour. I was amazed by the courtesy of Japanese drivers and more than a little thankful, too. Once out of the city and riding the smooth abrasively surfaced and unpatroled mountain roads north west of Tokyo, I thought I'd been led to one of the great motorcycling locales on the planet. I really started to dig the place. Later that night, enjoying the company and conversation of our multi national entourage soaking in the steaming waters of a centuries old traditional onsen spa, I figured motorcycle touring couldn't get too much better. That's when Vincent, ex-USN, handed me a silver hip flask inscribed with the name of some long since decommissioned Soviet destroyer. And so, I was introduced to Maker's Mark bourbon. Hmmmn, what was my point? Oh yea, I guess if you've got enough hot springs and bourbon, you could probably tour on an XB too. What DID people do before motorcycles?  | ||
| Dullorb |
ahhh.... onsen, after bicycling to the top of Mt. Hakone there's nothing better than a hot spring. Pretty damned cheap too. Best freaking baths in the world. Before motocycles people lived bound on small plots of land called serfs and rarely travelled more than 10 miles from home. | ||
| Darthane |
LOL...yeah, I think I cold get over my paranoia tot ride on these roads. I catch myself trying to flip on turn signals and hand signalling on my bike while I'm there. Generally, yes, they arer very courteous drivers (hey, I live near Detroit, voted in the top 5 of worst places in the US to drive), but saying they're sorry after plastering me across their grill because there are no lane lines is little consolation! (of course, me on my Firebolt probably weigh nearly what most of their vehicles do!). Jriechner - I'm about 140lbs and 5'11" with a 33" inseam. The Firebolt fits me like a glove. | ||
| Blackbelt |
hay bry, don't you mean... 90Lbs soaking wet... walking Stick Boy, hehehe jokin, just jokin | ||
| Timbo |
I dunno guys... 70 liters of carrying space (optional 90 liters available)...can be removed in less than a minute, with carry handles.   I'm good to go. YMMV. Timbo | ||
| Rex |
sat on one of the first xb platform bikes that I felt comfortable on.. -the guy had lowered the pegs -He had raised the handle bars to a comfortable level. -He had made arrangements to the fairing..up and out more..really made a big difference in look and feel...Of course, still a one person bike. It is too bad that buell does not make a larger bike, a sport touring type model for the older, larger folks. I agree the XB's are geared more for the younger, smaller riders....but I would think they are a little bit more expensive than what this age group can afford. I still love my M-2 with the S-3 tank and fairing mounted on it, along with the S-3 T bars. Very comfortable, yet sporty...this bike with the six speed baker and the european front sprocket works great...sounds great, smooth, powerful. Now to get James Banke busy adapting the buell hard bag brackets onto the frame...then I will have my bags on it, and it will be a fantastic touring, sport bike. HD still thinks that the buells are intro bikes, and those that want to tour, should step up to the HD touring bikes. The HD road glides, electra glides, and others may be comfy, and handle okay, but I like the handling of a buell or a more standard type bike myself.......rex | ||
| Dullorb |
Talked to Erik Saturday and managed to plug the XB12T again. I can tell he'd like to do it but he wants to do it right and he doesn't see where the cost/benefit ratio falls in his favor there. Darned reality. | ||
| Rex |
Great....I know Erik listens, and loves to hear from the Enthusiasts.....Business is business though.....REX | ||
| Crusty |
I'll be looking for a leftover S3-T when the money comes in, then. |
