| Author | Message | ||
     Hootowl |
"What does matter is that we tell the truth so we don't mislead others" Which is precisely what I have done, despite your insinuation to the contrary. End of argument. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I insinuated no such thing. I was addressing the topic openly. It seems to me some here desire to claim the engine is something it is not. It's Austrian. Austrian designed. Austrian manufactured in house and outside sourcing included. Austrian assembled. It morphed into the EBR engine. Get over it. Rocket in England | ||
| Hootowl |
You didn't read the article, I take it. I'd love to have a protracted boisterous fight with you over this, preferably over too many pints, but that's unlikely to happen any time soon. I say Buell and Rotax designed the engine, and Rotax assembled it from parts they acquired from third parties. You say otherwise. I have direct quotes from Erik Buell on my side. You have your opinion on what transpired on yours. I think I win. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I read the article when it first appeared. I read it again an hour ago. I also read the MCN article from a couple of months ago too, where Erik tells a similar story. Buell and Rotax designed the engine? How does that work then? First Harley tell Erik they're too busy to design and produce an engine for him (yeah right - read they're not capable) so they give him permission to go elsewhere. Erik goes to Rotax. Why would Erik go to Rotax? Why didn't he just design the whole engine and have it manufactured himself? There's a long running argument archived on BadWeB where some years ago I suggested the Helicon engine was damn near a copy of the RC8 engine. Perhaps that's because Rotax designed both the RC8 and Helicon engines entirely. It's likely all Erik will have done is advise Rotax designers what his objectives were. Power targets. Rev ceiling. Engine characteristic. V angle. The usual stuff. Erik might have had a hand in offering some aspects of the design. Perhaps the valve train or similar, but there is no way Erik Buell had little more than a say in what he wanted for an engine. The design would pretty much be all Rotax. Erik tells that Rotax had the cases and cranks cast from an outside source, then machined them in house. That would be Rotax having an Austrian steel foundry make the rough casts. Pretty standard automotive manufacturing then. Automotive manufacturers don't typically have their own steel foundries. Rotax do however machine these items. That;s pretty much raw manufacturing then. As for out sourcing. Standard practice again. Rotax won't prat about making their own valves or cams. Like everyone else, they too will go to a manufacturer of valves and a manufacturer of camshafts. Ditto for many other engine components. Erik tell this as if to discredit Rotax in an effort to make out that the EBR engine is more pure, EBR doing a better job than Rotax. It's a f**king nonsense, and just a story to embellish the EBR's prestige is all. I too have direct quotes from Erik Buell on my side. I'm much better placed to translate them is all. That's because I know and understand how the automotive manufacturing industry works. It is not my opinion. It is fact. Now taking Nortons RSV4 engine for the TT. This is an exception, and one Erik can only dream of. EBR is already too large to be building one of bespoke racing motorcycles. Norton are not. They are small enough and wealthy enough in their own right to have a crack at it. They are. This is why they can manufacture many engine components in house and not have to out source. Norton are a manufacturing facility and not just an assembly plant. Rocket in England | ||
| Hootowl |
"but there is no way Erik Buell had little more than a say in what he wanted for an engine. The design would pretty much be all Rotax." Well Rocket, the people who are in a position to know tell a different story. I think I'll believe their first hand facts over your third hand hypothesis. | ||
| Trojan |
You don'ty go to a premium engine designer/manufacturer and pay them large sums of money if you have everyting in place to be able to design and make the engine yourself, so I suspect that Rotax/BRP had a brief to work to from Buell but that the actual design, manufacturer and testing of said engine was down to Rotax, whether it was built in house or outsourced like 99% of engine manufacturers do (Do you think Harley make everything themselves for their engines?). Whichever is the correct story, and it has been muddied for a while now anyway (deliberately or not) since the 1190 was released, the fact is that Rotax played a significant part in the development and manufacture of the 1125 motor. The engine of the 1190 is heavily based on that motor, regardless of who actually machines, casts or moulds the parts presently. | ||
| Blake |
>>> Why aren't EBR / Hero behind this directly? Think. Hint: Body count. I sure won's support any manufacturer who promotes the death race. It's disgusting that it continues with no relief in sight to its horrendous toll. On the contrary, the local govt greed heads are now promoting the racing events that are directly responsible for killing on average five people every year. Yeah, let's sponsor that. NOT! | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
oh cool, a "not" joke... I agree with you though, Blake, it wouldnt be wise and no other manufacturer directly sponsors racers in this either | ||
| Reepicheep |
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/motor-spor t/northwest-200/english-rider-simon-andrews-dies-i n-hospital-after-horrific-crash-at-north-west-200- road-races-30286175.html My condolences to his friends and family. I won't tell other people what risks they can and can't take. But I will choose not to patronize things that make me sick to my stomach in terms of the risks people are taking. At some point it's a blood sport, and I won't support it in any way if I can avoid it. Those that feel compelled to take stupid risks should do so in private. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
There are risks involved with any motorsport, not just IOMTT. Dont act like the other forms are super safe, unless you dont support any of the bike/car racing in the world (including Buell/EBR) | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
http://metro.co.uk/2013/05/31/isle-of-man-tt-the-w orlds-most-dangerous-sporting-event-3816587/ Yeah Blake. Don't worry about promoting guns on BadWeB. They only injure 15000 and kill several hundred kids a year in America. Never mind adults! Let's not ban guns though eh  Rocket in gun free but deathly dangerous motorcycle racing England | ||
| Reepicheep |
If there was a firearms sporting even that got one person killed someone every year, it would be cancelled forever by those in the community. | ||
| Court |
>>>"but there is no way Erik Buell had little more than a say in what he wanted for an engine. The design would pretty much be all Rotax." That is patently 100% inaccurate. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
That is patently 100% inaccurate. Then why pay Rotax handsomely? Why not outsource the manufacture to China (like the wheels) or Italy (like the frame), and assemble it in house or have some other assemble it? Why would Rotax allow an outsider to their company and customer use them to get an engine designed and into production, using their production facilities and outside sourcing to build said engine? My thoughts would be, you don't know yourself otherwise Erik would be elaborating on his recent comments about Rotax involvement. Seems to me he can't though. Perhaps because Rotax might not take favourably to Erik claiming the design is more his than theirs. I wonder what the repercussions of such might be. I've a very close friend with connections to Rotax. I shall enquire as to what Rotax take on this matter is. Rocket in England | ||
| Buellmojo |
http://dazooracing.wordpress.com/2014/05/20/road-r acing-is-dangerous/ | ||
| Trojan |
killing on average five people every year How many people did on Everest this year? How many people died on public roads thsi year in Texas? How many people got shot this year in the US (so far)? Bull fighting is dangerous, as is mountain climbing, skiing, hunting, crossing the road and taking a train. I find it pretty sad that anyone can criticise the TT then espouse the right for joe public to carry a lethal weapon, but then I live in a country where guns (and people that use/carry them) are seen as inherently dangerous . Like guns, the TT is not dangerous unless you do something wrong or stupid. The TT track won't jump up and kill you for nothing that's for sure. The TT doesn't walk into a school and randomly kill people for the 'fun' of it. Everyone that races at the TT does so knowing the risks, and nobody knew the risks of road racing more than Simon Andrews, who returned from life threatening injuries twice to do what he loved and to race on the roads again. if you don't like the TT fine, don't watch it. Nobody is forcing anyone to do it or watch it or support it if they don't want to. | ||
| Hughlysses |
My thoughts would be, you don't know yourself otherwise Erik would be elaborating on his recent comments about Rotax involvement. Seems to me he can't though. Perhaps because Rotax might not take favourably to Erik claiming the design is more his than theirs. I wonder what the repercussions of such might be. Erik has elaborated quite a bit about this engine in the press. If Rotax was going to object, I think they'd have already done it.  From February 2014 article here: http://cyclenews.uberflip.com/i/262687 | ||
| Court |
>>>I've a very close friend with connections to Rotax. That's good. If their connections are good they will likely know some of the 16 Buell Motorcycle Engineers and Logistics personnel who spent over 2 years in Austria during the development. Ask them to tell you about the unique features and the moratorium, for 10 years, on Transfer of Technology. Yeah, at least one other company wanted some of what Buell brought to the table. Oh . . . and ask them about the OTHER Rotax projects, unrelated to any motor that would ever appear in a Buell, that Rotax sought help and engineering input from the Buell folks on . . . . This is good . . .. you can save me a chapter in the next book. | ||
| D_adams |
rocket, I realize this is old data, but the trends are there. Gun control simply does not work. More restrictions = more criminals with weapons and less citizens able to defend themselves equally. "According to data from the FBI’s uniform crime reports, California had the highest number of gun murders in 2011 with 1,220 — which makes up 68 percent of all murders in the state that year and equates to 3.25 murders per 100,000 people. The irony of such a grisly distinction is evident when you look at which state was named the state with the strongest gun control laws in 2011 by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. You guessed it — it was California." http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the- u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011 http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the- u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20 To take that a step farther, CRIMINALS will not obey the law, ergo, they will most likely be armed, banned weapons or not. Do you want to be a statistic/victim or a survivor? Yeah, I concealed carry, I will be a survivor (at least I'll attempt to be, if not, I'll be taking someone with me) rather than just another statistic. Violent crime happens no matter where you live. How you chose to defend yourself is (or should be) up to you. Everyone in my family can and will use whatever means necessary up to and including firearms to defend life and liberty. I'm not a gun nut or whatever, but I do expect to be left alone and enjoy the freedoms of this country. Sorry you're stuck over there and can't do the same. | ||
| Trojan |
CRIMINALS will not obey the law, ergo, they will most likely be armed, banned weapons or not That argument doesn't hold water when you consider just how many 'innocent' people are killed and injured every year by either their own or a family members firearms. I read somewhere (can't remember where) that more cops are shot with their own guns than by crinminals in the USA. Whether that is true or not the fact remains that the entire premise of 'having to carry a weapon' just in cae someone else has one is flawed. I was a police officer for 13 years including a 5 year spell in central London. During that time I never carried a gun, never saw a gun and never had to deal with a fatal (or otherwise) shooting. And that is just the way I liked it  I have nothing against guns as such and they are fine in military or police use (I carried a gun every day for 12 years in the Air Force before joing the police after all). I just cannot for the life of me understand why any civilian would want to own one, let alone some of the assault weapons available 'over the counter' in the US. Gun crime is so rare in this country that almost every crime using firearms makes the national news. This is simply because we have strict gun control laws over here The only reason that criminals are most likely armed in the US is that gun control is completely useless and out of hand, so guns are easily available to the entire population, criminal or not. Our cultures will never agree over gun control simply becaue it is ingrained into US life unlike here where it would be deemed simply ridiculous for any politician to suggest that people should be allowed to buy and carry guns. Anyway...back to the TT. (Message edited by trojan on May 22, 2014) | ||
| Fast1075 |
Germany had mandatory gun control in 1938. Sucked to be a Jew, Gypsy, or any other person on the "unacceptable" list when the jackboots came in the middle of the night. I'll keep my weapons, thank you. And I still watch the IOM. Crazy Bastidges riding like that....but Hey!, I'm from the "Hold my beer and watch this" culture. | ||
| Trojan |
Germany had mandatory gun control in 1938. There is always an extreme example that gun owner quote! Actually germany had zero gun control in 1938. Apart from embarking on a massive re-arming programme in around 1936, if you wanted a gun in those days you could get one quite easily becaue there were still millions around from the first war that were never handed back after the armistice. Most German soldiers just took them home. How about comparing the firearms murder rate between the USA and UK (or Canada, or Australia, or France, or Sweden, or pretty much any other modern western country) instead? | ||
| M2typhoon |
Why is it that every time Trojan or Rocket get's involved in a thread, the topic changes and it get confrontational. I can't bear to be looking at this complete load of garbage being posted here. You're all acting like a bunch of lunatics. Guns have nothing to do with the Isle of Man TT race which is what this thread is about!!! | ||
| Hughlysses |
I wonder if Erik's ever designed a gun? What if the riders at IOM could carry? Now THAT would be a race!  | ||
| Firstbuell |
real roads "Road Rage" ? | ||
| Crusty |
WORLD MURDER STATISTICS (According to the Works Health Organization) Murders per 100,000 citizens per year. Honduras 91.6 (WOW!!) El Salvador 69.2 Cote d'lvoire aks Ivory Coast 56.9 Jamaica 52.2 Venezuela 45.1 Belize 41.4 US Virgin Islands 39.2 Guatemala 38.5 Saint Kitts and Nevis 38.2 Zambia 38.0 Uganda 36.3 Malawi 36.0 Lesotho 35.2 Trinidad and Tobago 35.2 Colombia 33.4 South Africa 31.8 Congo 30.8 Central African Republic 29.3 Bahamas 27.4 Puerto Rico 26.2 Saint Lucia 25.2 Dominican Republic 25.0 Tanzania 24.5 Sudan 24.2 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9 Ethiopia 22.5 Guinea 22.5 Dominica 22.1 Burundi 21.7 Democratic Republic of the Congo 21.7 Panama 21.6 Brazil 21.0 Equatorial Guinea 20.7 Guinea-Bissau 20.2 Kenya 20.1 Kyrgyzstan 20.1 Cameroon 19.7 Montserrat 19.7 Greenland 19.2 Angola 19.0 Guyana 18.6 Burkina Faso 18.0 Eritrea 17.8 Namibia 17.2 Rwanda 17.1 Mexico 16.9 Chad 15.8 Ghana 15.7 Ecuador 15.2 North Korea 15.2 Benin 15.1 Sierra Leone 14.9 Mauritania 14.7 Botswana 14.5 Zimbabwe 14.3 Gabon 13.8 Nicaragua 13.6 French Guiana 13.3 Papua New Guinea 13.0 Swaziland 12.9 Bermuda 12.3 Comoros 12.2 Nigeria 12.2 Cape Verde 11.6 Grenada 11.5 Paraguay 11.5 Barbados 11.3 Togo 10.9 Gambia 10.8 Peru 10.8 Myanmar 10.2 Russia 10.2 Liberia 10.1 Costa Rica 10.0 Nauru 9.8 Bolivia 8.9 Mozambique 8.8 Kazakhstan 8.8 Senegal 8.7 Turks and Caicos Islands 8.7 Mongolia 8.7 British Virgin Islands 8.6 Cayman Islands 8.4 Seychelles 8.3 Madagascar 8.1 Indonesia 8.1 Mali 8.0 Pakistan 7.8 Moldova 7.5 Kiribati 7.3 Guadeloupe 7.0 Haiti 6.9 Timor-Leste 6.9 Anguilla 6.8 Antigua and Barbuda 6.8 Lithuania 6.6 Uruguay 5.9 Philippines 5.4 Ukraine 5.2 Estonia 5.2 Cuba 5.0 Belarus 4.9 Thailand 4.8 Suriname 4.6 Laos 4.6 Georgia 4.3 Martinique 4.2 And ............................................ The United States 4.2 !!!!!!!!!!!! ALL (109) of the countries above the US of A have 100% gun bans. It might be of interest to note that SWITZERLAND is not shown on this list because it has: NO MURDER OCCURRENCE! However, SWITZERLAND'S law requires that EVERY ADULT MALE: 1. Be issued a gun. 2. Be trained in its use. 3. Maintain Marksman qualifications.... regularly. | ||
| Rodrob |
Dear Moderator - Please get rid of all this off topic gun nonsense. It has NO PLACE HERE! | ||
| Trojan |
I agree, lets stop talking about guns and also referring to the TT as a 'death race'. Which is I think where this started... | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
rocket, I realize this is old data, but the trends are there. Gun control simply does not work. More restrictions = more criminals with weapons and less citizens able to defend themselves equally. Which has nothing to do with the statistic I posted, and why I chose to mention said statistic as it dealt directly with innocent child victims of gun shot. You guys want to play with guns, there can be consequences. Just like racing at the TT, or riding your bike around the IoM during TT time. Yep there might be consequences there too. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Erik has elaborated quite a bit about this engine in the press. If Rotax was going to object, I think they'd have already done it. How many times do you want me to read it? Posting Erik's words here in larger text won't change that I've already commented on them. Erik hasn't really said much at all about the 1125's origin other than it was a co design. He says a little more about it since it became an 1190, in an effort to claim it as an exclusive EBR engine. It's still a Rotax and always will be. No matter how many times you rework it or some of its internals. If I took an 1190 engine, for my production motorcycle, and copied the crankcases, changed 140 parts inside it then called it a Rocket engine, would Erik be cool with this? Rocket in England |
