| Author | Message | ||
     Hughlysses |
The electronics still doesn't have much to do with grenading 3 motors in two races and I suspect the valve train has something to do with it much like how Danny over rev'd one time entering a corner. DNF does not necessarily equal "grenaded" engines. Someone here seemed to be fairly certain it was failed head gaskets. As stated earlier in this thread, it doesn't seem they are running fast enough in WSBK to be causing RPM-related problems. | ||
| Classax |
The electronics still doesn't have much to do with grenading 3 motors in two races and I suspect the valve train has something to do with it much like how Danny over rev'd one time entering a corner. It would if you're running alternating cycles of too lean too rich too lean. That plus high WOT acceleration and high rpm with the A/F not quite right, induces heat, knocking, popping, incorrect flame shape, blow by, all kinds of stuff that are a great way to kill an engine. If the ECU isn't right and they a running at red line a lot which I would assume they are, its a perfect way to chew up a motor. All the teams are running hard enough to consume(destroy) engines, the trick is to make your allotment last the whole season and never make one "let go" mid race. The ecu not being right would be very affective way to accelerate that process, even if didn't accelerate the bike very effectively. I'm reluctant to think its a mechanical issue partly because they continue to say its electrical and partly because they ran about 20% faster last year without the engines spontaneously increasing parts count and blowing them out the exhaust, but anything is possible.  (Message edited by Classax on May 13, 2014) | ||
| Ljm |
I think it is interesting that in the Macau article, he blew a motor early on, then made what was a shortened race and did well. He appeared to like the bike, and did his fastest lap on it. Interestingly too, it was an RS running the EBR ECU. I wonder if he will run it again this year? | ||
| Trojan |
got to make it look like youre gaining ground Not at all. If a team issues a press release that is light on facts they should make sure the 'fact' they do quote is correct surely? All the data is there to check on the WSb site so it isn't rocket science. I wanted to see real progress from this test and coming up to the UK round next week, but it seems that they didn't have anything new to test anyway? | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
I agree Trojan, but they are likely hoping that people, like on here, just take it as truth and dont look into it. Just as people on here have done. | ||
| Classax |
but they are likely hoping that people, like on here, just take it as truth and dont look into it. Just as people on here have done. I won't question their motives, that's an argument one can never truly win, but I would question their methods. Specifically What was Tested? How was it Tested? How was it measured? and How was it recorded? There are a lot of smart, very experienced people on Badwed. I know EBR builds the bikes but guys like Jduggers and Rodrob have much more live race mileage and by extension practical race knowledge dealing with the Beull/EBR design "quirks" and therefore setup, than most of the guys on the Wsb or even Pegram's team. I would imagine before this year maybe 3/4s of the WSb team's techs had never even seen a Buell/EBR in the flesh much less worked on one. Simple things like chain tension are different or even the opposite of the way its done on any other bike. That's no knock on the guys of the team, its just an inevitable learning curve. Because Buell/EBR's are "different in every way" that curve can be steep and short or shallow and LONG depending on who you have access to. Somethings you may not even know you need to ask. Being MORE detailed and factual in the press releases would go along way toward getting qualified and experienced minds in to progress the effort. Still its entertaining to watch, which is the one thing any sport absolutely has to be, right? (Message edited by classax on May 14, 2014) | ||
| Court |
>>>>Being MORE detailed and factual in the press releases would go along way toward getting qualified and experienced minds in to progress the effort. Do you mean EBR or all the teams? I'm wondering . . for the sake of discussion . . . if I were to write the Suzuki folks and ask then for "more detailed and factual" information about chassis set up and how they have programed their electronics? If I read this correct, you are suggesting that EBR put all details out there . . wait to see what the consensus is on the internet and then act based on that? Sounds like a winning strategy. | ||
| Trojan |
I'm wondering . . for the sake of discussion . . . if I were to write the Suzuki folks and ask then for "more detailed and factual" information about chassis set up and how they have programed their electronics? Nobody is asking for intimate details from the team, although if you read most team press releases following a test session they will at least mention what they tested or what they were trying to achieve from the test, even if they have no new parts to test. In the case of Suzuki it was engine braking strategy in the main at this weks test folloowing the problems they had in that area during the race. They were up front about that and what their problems were in the race. MV stated that they had a new engine, electronics and swingarm to test. See what i mean? The EBR press release basically said nothing other than the lap time, which wasn't really much faster than they had gone in FP2 (suggesting that there was nothing new or even udpated on the bike, just more track time)? There was certainly no improvement in top speed otherwise the lap time would have fallen a lot more than the 0.4 seconds shown, so it leaves us asking questions yet again. of course this is just educated guesswork, but if the team told us more we would know the whole truth wouldn't we  | ||
| Court |
I'd be willing to wager . . . although I do not know . . . that MOST the top teams press releases are composed and released by the same company. It's an interesting discussion anyway. Who ever thought my biggest concern would be Buell improving their performance in WSBK racing? Cool. | ||
| Classax |
If I read this correct, you are suggesting that EBR put all details out there . . wait to see what the consensus is on the internet and then act based on that? No not at all. What I'm suggesting is that they mention what changes they are testing. If they test a new valve spring, they don't have say exactly what but they could allude to it. IE ' "The team is pleased with the progress we made today. We tested various components aimed at improving our gas flow and reliability. Geoff's telemetry showed we are able to consistently and reliably turn higher RPM's where we needed which translated to almost half a second quicker lap times. We have a long way to go but are making good progress." or "We continue to review our data to look for more efficient top end performance without sacrificing durability." or " We continue to evaluate various suspension components with our latest combination allowing both riders to improve in the bumpy sections of the track. Telemetry showed Aaron was able to consistently increase corner exist drive over what we have to date, which equated to a solid .6 sec per lap improvement over yesterday. We are working with Geoff to achieve similar results" Any of those examples tell a lot without spilling the proverbial beans. I was merely suggesting more information would make it more entertaining for the fans; some of whom have enough experience, and technical knowledge to make a legitimate contribution to OUR discussions regarding technical or practical applications. As opposed to the rather nauseating debate about what class they should run or if they should even be tarnishing the grand reputation of WSb with their presence at all. (Message edited by classax on May 14, 2014) | ||
| Trojan |
I was merely suggesting more information would make it more entertaining for the fans; I think the phrase 'encouraging for fans' could also be used. It is difficult to watch at the moment and any positive information on the way forward would be very well received by all I'm sure. Sometimes bland team releases can be a cover for 'nothing new happening here' or 'we don't want to tell you what is happening here' so you have to judge by the times. Sadly on this occasion I guess the former, but we really don't know  | ||
| Hughlysses |
I'm with Classax; I understand the need for secrecy, but I sure wish we had some clue as to what's going on behind the scenes. Do they expect to continue to make incremental progress as the season goes on, are big things still in the works for this year, or are they focusing on gathering data for a major engine redesign/new model design for next year that will make them highly competitive? | ||
| Court |
Good, and reasonable, responses all. It's a bit of a double edged sword, as no one in the Buell community needs to be told following the "let us have an early glimpse" travesty with the 1125 rollout. Press releases are, by their very definition, a sort of "spin" for general consumption. Most the folks reading them couldn't tell you the difference between ZTL and ECM. But, I also concur that it would be good, given that there are a number of amateur racers, builders and technically savvy enthusiasts in the audience, to share more about the items of interest to the team as they continue to work on improving performance. I'm a little surprised to see someone mention something like "well they put the best spin on it" or something to that effect. That's precisely what PR firms (particularly those doing over $2B a year) do. I'd not be looking for a "even though we improved our time we were still at the bottom of the pack. If you'd write that . . please don't do your own resume' I'm optimistic . . . . but, like most the opinions here, mine is based pretty much on gut feelings. We'll see. If I were betting . . .and I do have a bit of a dog in this hunt . . . I'd go with The Elves. They are no stranger to starting from the back of the pack and moving ahead in an orderly and planned fashion. I suppose that recalling the day when "the goal" was to simply scrape together $3,000 for payroll and now seeing them racing professionally in the various continents of the globe . . flavors my thinking. Hey . . that's just me. | ||
| Court |
By the way . . . . I enjoy these dialogues. This is a bit of an internet anomaly as there are a number of folks here (with some glaring exclusions) who know exactly what they are talking about. While . . . for the benefit of those who may be new or just wandering in . . Matt and I may see the elephant from differing sides, I am not unfamiliar with his racing background and his track (pun intended) record. Badweb has always distinguished itself among (and outlasted most) websites by attracting some seriously well versed individuals who's resume entitles them to express opinions. There are a few . . . . well, that we just let ramble. But, hey . . that's half the fun. | ||
| Trojan |
Matt and I may see the elephant from differing sides, African or Indian? | ||
| M2typhoon |
Asian... | ||
| Crusty |
It's the white one in the Living Room  | ||
| Classax |
Matt and I may see the elephant from differing sides,= African or Asiatic?} Fixed it for you, Indian is a subspecies.  | ||
| Hughlysses |
I saw a pink elephant last night.  | ||
| Classax |
http://youtu.be/-Oph8sXHfsI I just want to see one fly(around the track. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I'm wondering . . for the sake of discussion . . . if I were to write the Suzuki folks and ask then for "more detailed and factual" information about chassis set up and how they have programed their electronics? If I read this correct, you are suggesting that EBR put all details out there . . wait to see what the consensus is on the internet and then act based on that? Yamaha went into great detail about their frame modifications which lead to Rossi's 2nd place in Spain. They told how the stiff frame which Lorenzo developed from Rossi's previous Yamaha escapade suited Lorenzo's smooth style and high corner speed. Rossi prefers a more flexible frame with more stiffness around the steering head so he can feel the front more. Thus the frame was gusseted further around the headstock and sections removed around the centre. This is the frame Yamaha wheeled out in Spain. Lorenzo tried it Friday and didn't get on with it, so raced the usual frame. His frame if you like. Rossi found the modified for him frame to his liking and immediately outpaced Lorenzo, on his way to 2nd place. This kind of transparency is not uncommon with the Japanese and Italians. Never has been. Or at least not in the way Buell are secretive. Buell wrap themselves in secrecy with everything. There comes a point where teasers at the very least are welcome. But with Buell it's always been loads of hype and no clues, but we will tell you when it suits us. Which is always after the fact and never before. Rocket in England | ||
| Ljm |
I don't blame them. Even their friends Monday Morning Quarterback them. Once bitten, twice shy. If I were Anon, I would probably delete this link. And in the face of a successful product launch, a second one coming soon, there is the possibility that providing specific information to a few people is not the top of the list. | ||
| Trojan |
there is the possibility that providing specific information to a few people is not the top of the list. The factory probably have more important things to think about, but the PR side of the race team is the responsibility of the team and is very important in terms of overall publicity for the team and sponsors. That is why you see so many PR people in the motorsports pit boxes these days and loitering near drivers/riders during interviews. If you look at the WSb web site http://www.worldsbk.com/en you'll see that the whole front 'news' page is comprised entirely of press releases from teams (easy journalism). These get rotated around the page so that each one takes the 'headline' slot in turn. If the team doesn't let them know what they are doing they get no coverage, simple. Also it isn't just the dedicated few here who are interested in what is going on within the team at tests etc. A lot of impartial WSb viewers will be interested in the new team and what they are doing to improve. Thye don't have to give away any trade secrets but a regular well written press release giving a general idea of direction and progress would be good for the team and the company methinks. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Just posted to EBR's Facebook- interview with Erik at Next Moto Champion: Starts at 35:40 >> http://bit.ly/1nOtdvC He directly addresses their WSBK effort. | ||
| Crusty |
Thanks for that link, Hugh. It makes me really wish I could make it to Laguna Seca for the WSBK races. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
EBR have at least 70 odd tickets to give away to people the count did Erik say? 4 for Donnington please to Saab Workshop Elm Terrace Queens Road Hull East York's HU5 2TQ Much appreciated thanks EBR  Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
You can't fault Erik for his commitment and belief but, and it's a big but, he surely must be naive in thinking EBR's presence in WSBK is anything but damaging. Having said that, I can only assume two things are at work here. Hero, as such, a little known player on the world stage despite their enormity in the two wheeled industry, are working on the 'any publicity is better than no publicity' theory - they being the sponsor Erik is surely referring to. This, and EBR are in WSBK for the long game, and if so they must be aiming to improve dramatically over the next couple of seasons. You can't come to WSBK and not succeed at all then leave after a poor showing and expect Hero to launch superbikes of any size for sale to a buying public influenced by SBK racing, or EBR to sell their 1190's to similar customers in popular foreign markets. Hero might sell Hasturs should they ever build any. EBR will sell their 1190, no doubt. It's entirely possible EBR might sell more 1190's into European markets if they were not in WSBK racing. Unless of course the results start coming. EBR could then reverse public perception. And only then will they sell more 1190's on the back of their success. Rocket in England | ||
| Crusty |
Did BMW sell many S1000s the first year they raced in WSBK? If the EBRs start improving, the memory of the first few rounds will fade pretty quickly. I'm very positive that the bikes will get better as the season progresses, and the finishes will improve. I have no knowledge of what goes on at EBR, but I have had personal experience in how much the elves will do to make things Right. Give them the same time folks gave BMW. They had some pretty crappy finishes their first year, and they had a championship caliber rider who was familiar with the tracks. EBR will get there. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Yes the S1000R was a sales success from the get go. Racing it in WSBK didn't diminish its early sales success for two reasons. The bike was good and BMW have an enviable reputation. Given their reputation in many motorsport disciplines, they could likely fail miserably in WSBK yet their superbike would still sell for the same two reasons. The bike itself being good, and that enviable reputation. EBR are coming at WSBK from a completely different perspective to that of BMW, which is admirable in some sense, yet somewhat desperate in others for want of a better description. So it would be wrong to say BMW managed to sell their bike well despite their early failings in racing it, then suggesting EBR could have the same success. BMW achieved their sales through reasons EBR can't. They don't have the enviable reputation and EBR's streetbike is not in a position to be received like the S1000R was due to the totally opposed differences of both companies. Rocket in England | ||
| Neutrum |
"Did BMW sell many S1000s the first year they raced in WSBK?" Hell yea! Almost every fourth bike on a track day in europe is a bmw s1000rr or a hp4. Because it's a hell of a bike with the most power out of a showroom setting and because of their reputation in reliability and support. no doubt about that! |
