| Author | Message | ||
     Lakes |
A 1958 Sporty in Australia is 1,300cc & been that fast at phillip island race track & faster at Lake Gairner Salt Lake . & its running Pan Heads , John Treese is owner builder. no fancy web page, for that boy. | ||
| Phelan |
Lakes, don't forget Bonneville is over a mile above sea level, whereas Gairner is only 111 ft above. You lose quite a bit of power that high above sea level, which is why a lot of people go faster at other events. Aaron once said the power loss is around 30%, though I don't know if that's actually the case. | ||
| General_ulysses |
Oh wow, 110 octane gas? Sounds like the compression ratio would need to stay pretty close to stock if you wanted to stick with pump gas. That means the only way to really make power is to go for substantially bigger displacement, which from what I've read requires the cases to be bored. Lotsa more money and work there. Maybe stock isn't so bad after all? | ||
| Phelan |
I think you can go 10.5, maybe 11-1 on high octane pump gas (91). Around here I stick to Phillips 66 as it's usually the only one with 91 octane; the rest are 90. There used to be a place in town near the race track that would sell 95 or 100 octane (can't remember which), but I dunno if it's still here. Unfortunately, all the gas here is 10% ethanol. Still looking into remedies to avoid long-term issues with such. One option is moving :P. | ||
| Buelliedan |
I looked up the records for Lake Gairner. You might want to check your facts Lakes. His bike is partially streamlined and running on fuel (nitro, nitrous, etc) which is good for about 20-25 mph more compared to our naked class gas bike yet he was still slower and as was pointed out he was at sea level: MPS-PF John Trease 2010 162.557 I just love when somebody tries to put others down and instead make themselves look bad. (Message edited by buelliedan on April 29, 2014) | ||
| Phelan |
As Dan pointed out, areodynamics is HUGE at 100+ mph. It takes ~8 times the horsepower to go 200 MPH as it does 100 MPH, all other things equal. | ||
| Lakes |
Have read about that & know people who compete at both. but the 1958 sporty took on all the top classic racers, out here about three decades back all the euro & brit & jap bike racers at the start laughed. then that ol 58 got that fast the owner was not good enough so got pro racers to ride it. it's been developed now to owner rides it himself at the salt. makes good power & cases are cast magnesium owner made them has Kawasaki Superbike 6 speed gearbox & clutch & old 58 pan heads ( aluminium so lighter than cast iron, & needed for classic bike class rules ) | ||
| Phelan |
That's pretty much the same story as Burt Monroe. | ||
| Lakes |
This guy Different as has a machine shop has designed & built all types of Harley motors & a lot one off, he designed a twin cam big twin before Harley released the twin cam, designed his own cams makes the master cam has a cam manufacture make. he built a Top Fuel HD motor that runs a Wibble supercharger one off for a friend of mine. but that was 14 years back. friend has not used that motor yet as was learning to work with Nitro. Ol Burt was a lengend in his time. but think you saw a movie star. this guy not a movie star or not on internet has done a lot of one off Job's for customers. Made his own throttle body for a 145 cubic inch street bike motor, that he designed & built for a customer, even designed & made cast heads, that is more work than billet, the heads are very expensive , that made bulk Torque things are a lot different today than when Burt was racing, that would have been really hard to do in his day. still not many that are dedicated enough to make one off Harley motors that work. most just think of mass production & profit. i like it this way as you have something no one else has. if you all have same thing, you all go the same. cheers | ||
| Buelliedan |
so Lakes i noticed you still have not admitted you were wrong in stating Treese was faster than us? | ||
| Blake |
For land peed racing, lighter weight is pretty much just a pure waste of time and effort. In fact, it can be hugely counter-productive. To get enough traction to overcome aerodynamic drag and keep the rear tire from spinning out, there needs to be significant weight on the rear tire. For drag and circuit racing where hard acceleration are key, lighter weight is extremely beneficial. But not so much when you have miles to get up to speed. | ||
| Screamer |
Phelen, Could you share where your "8 times the horsepower to go 200mph as is does 100 mph" information came from? The reason I ask is that an 883 Sportster (40-45 hp?) can do nearly the mid 90s and there are some some Sportster-based non- fairing bikes that have run near 200 with much less than 320 horsepower. Thanks | ||
| General_ulysses |
Phelen is right. Power required to overcome aerodynamic drag goes up with velocity cubed (i.e. velocity to the 3rd power). So 2 (i.e. double) to the third power is 2 x 2 x 2 = 8 (i.e. eight times). | ||
| Buelliedan |
We have about 50 pounds of lead attached to our swingarm to keep the wheel from spinning. Might have to add more this year as we were still spinning the first days when the salt was damp. the 8 times more power figure is of course a generalized number as the aero package of the bike can have a big influence on how much power you need to go 200. But on a non faired bike the 8 times more number is pretty accurate and yes it takes about 280-320 hp to go over 200 on a typical non faired bike at Bonneville. Rider size and how low the bike sits have a huge influence on speed at those numbers as even big feet can slow you down 2-3 mph! We needed 145 hp to go 170 mph with a VERY small rider and a very aerodynamic but non faired bike. To break 200 with her on it will require about 280 hp by my calulations. Almost double the hp for just 30 more mph!! (Message edited by buelliedan on April 30, 2014) | ||
| Kalali |
Going 200mph on two wheels will definitely rule me out. I'd probably use up about 25lbs worth of diapers just during dry runs  | ||
| Buellsrule |
I'd buy parts from Dan. Machine work? Nope. 88 kits are a better bang for the buck vs a 1250 kit. Yellow bikes are still gay. Guys that ride them? I have no idea. Fixed my profile for you J.V. You're welcome. Frank  (Message edited by Buellsrule on April 30, 2014) (Message edited by Buellsrule on April 30, 2014) | ||
| Jayvee |
Buellsrule, you seem to be quite the expert about what is gay and what is not. But I digress.. You're right, I can't fix stupid, nor your inability to speak without insulting someone, so in very small words: lets agree to not comment on each others posts any more. Ok? Thank you. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Jayvee - If this was facebook I would friend you RIGHT NOW! | ||
| 2kx1 |
Buelliedan, Has anyone installed an 08+ crankshaft in a tuber case? I want to go 1250 but would like more rpms and would like it reliable if it is possible. | ||
| General_ulysses |
How reliable and how many miles can you expect to get out of the 88" big bore kits? And how hot do they run? I would think all that extra displacement and power combined with a little less fin area might push the limit on an engine that already has cooling issues for the rear cylinder. By boring out the cases does that weaken it or otherwise cause other problems? (leaks etc?) | ||
| Phelan |
I looked into it some years ago. It requires a bit of modification to the crank and I believe the cases as well. | ||
| Buelliedan |
I have not done any 08 cranks in tuber Buells but I have put them into 2004 and up Sportsters as they both use a crank trigger ignition system. It would take some work to put one in a Buell tuber. As for 88" builds. yes they require the cases to be bored which does weaken the cases and they do wear out pistons about twice as fast as a 1250 does due to skirt clearances required. I would not recommend an 88" build for a daily driver. | ||
| Phelan |
Hypothetically speaking Dan, would it be possible to build an 88 or 90" that could ridden daily? Like maybe S&S cases/crank and longer rods/cyls to allow longer piston skirts? | ||
| Jvv |
Phelan....... I had a 95 inch S1, mostly S and S, built by Bob White, an old flat track motor builder, who worked at Modesto/Harley/Buell. It dropped a valve first couple weeks. They replaced the valve springs with weaker ones. Then it blew a head gasket shortly after. They replace them was slightly thicker ones. To me, it ran the same with the softer valve springs and the slightly lower compression. After that, I put 20 K plus miles on it, with never a hic- up. It won four or five dyno shootouts, 120hp being the best. I rode the bike almost daily, including a couple trips to Los Angeles. It turned in the mid 120's in the 1/4 mile and 140+ at Bonneville in street trim. By far my most favorite bike. I also put on a S2 primary Sprocket, as It went through the gears way too fast. These motors do not like high rpm's. Like the Geico ad "everybody knows that" or should. I just remembered, at one of the homecomings, the ignition crapped out. Some fiber-optic drag racing system. Would I do it again, or recommended doing it, yes, in a heartbeat!!! | ||
| Phelan |
Jack, 95" eh? Sounds like what I was thinking, a 99" or 100" setup de-stroked to give room for extra piston skirting. My dream build is a 90+" on S&S cases with EFI and some sort of heads with separate intake runners on either side, or even Feuling 4V heads with TBs and mirrored Hurricane Flow A/Cs on either side. | ||
| General_ulysses |
Buellidan and jvv thanks for the advice about big bore Harley engines. Sounds like a standard Harley crankcase and engine is not a good candidate for a reliable and thoroughly streetable big bore bike. Sounds like the best way to make power without replacing the crankcase too (very expensive) is to keep displacement close to stock (around 1200cc), increase compression and use better flowing heads. But if you wish to stick with pump gas and the stock crank (limiting your rpm to around 6200 or so) you're limited on how high you can go, which keeps a sort of cap on the hp and torque increases available. It sounds like XB/X1 levels of power are close to the reasonable limit on pump gas. Anything much beyond that which can be expected to be reliable needs new cases along with everything else, resulting in a very expensive engine which even then will probably be less reliable than stock. I guess there's only so much you can do with 1940's pushrod engine technology. That's too bad because I was starting to salivate over the idea of an 88" S1.  | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
It turned in the mid 120's in the 1/4 mile and 140+ at Bonneville in street trim. By far my most favorite bike. Hey Jack, how nice to see you posting. I hope all is well in the world for you. Now about that S1. You mean this one.....    That was a fantastic S1 Jack. Does it survive? You do know my fast pass at Bonneville was 144mph when I broke out. That was the fastest Buell after the RR record breaker. It would have gone faster had I not been trying to stay as close to 140mph as possible  We should do it again soon! I need an excuse to bring my S1 to the U.S. Does Woz still have the breadvan, lol. Rocket in England | ||
| Jvv |
Hey Rocket.....Good to hear from you. That was a great weekend!!! Still can,t believe the "official" reversed his decision because you broke out. I sold the bike to FMJ years ago......I "think" it is in Az. now ?? Woz still has the bread truck, but it is semi retired.....(doesn't do that many events anymore). I just had a 1250 kit installed on my S2 by FMJ..........I was replacing/rebuilding everything, so the bang for the buck made sense. I had chrome liners in my in my nitro burning west bend go karts in the 1960's..........worked well back then. I had chrome liners in a 88" er, I had built years ago.......(Woz owns it now)......but it is NOT a daily rider. A big bore need S & S cases, crank, etc. IMO. Ride safe, guys....Jack (Message edited by jvv on May 07, 2014) | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Good to hear back from you Jack. Great Buell and we can enjoy the memories and the pics.  Rocket in England | ||
| Lakes |
Thanks for posting the pic's rocket, i love those S1's, has that one got a longer swing arm? |
