| Author | Message | ||
     Jscott |
No one expected that they would be in the hunt, but I figured they'd have a decent showing amongst all the EVO entries. Not sure how being consistently dead last and being SO far off pace is good for PR. | ||
| Ebmachine |
Agreed Steevel regarding O-Ringing aluminum with copper. Gas-filled Phuzion O-Rings may be a solution. This solution permits engine builders to utilize the high-end O-ring sealing system without special block or cylinder-head preparation. I have not heard of it being used on motorcycle engines (yet). Probably not a good time to experiment though. | ||
| Hughlysses |
OK- here's another/revised theory. Erik wasn't ready to go WSBK racing and knew the bike wouldn't be competitive in its current state of development, BUT Hero said "we want you to do it anyway, we won't sponsor AMA racing again this year due to its lack of TV coverage and lack of following outside the US". Given a choice of the current WSBK effort or nothing, EBR chose to do what they're doing.  As to not hiring an experienced WSBK rider- does anyone know the duration of Geoff and/or Aaron's contracts? Perhaps EBR was locked into using them again this year and couldn't hire an experienced WSBK rider? (Message edited by Hughlysses on April 27, 2014) | ||
| Elvis |
While I'd love to see what Jens could do, I think it's too early to talk about scrapping the current team. Geoff hasn't had a healthy race yet, and once he's 100%, I think it's realistic to think he can start getting 15th place finishes and build from there. I strongly suspect that the reason they missed the group test is they didn't want to push Geoff's shoulder more than they already did (that test was 4 weeks after his surgery, the race was at 6 weeks and they did their private test at 5 weeks). They need to get within 104% of the top riders over the next few races and continue to build from there. I would have preferred to see them bring in an experienced WSBK rider to run alongside Geoff, but they have what they have for whatever reasons. Lack of track knowledge is clearly a big disadvantage as we see them make big gains from practice to race at every track. An experienced rider wouldn't have that learning curve, but they'd have a bigger learning curve with the bike than Geoff or Aaron. I hope and expect to see progress in the coming races as Geoff gets healthier and the bike continues to develop. If by the end of the season (or even half-way into the season) they haven't made some measurable progress, yeah, they'll have to seriously re-think things. But the task they're attempting is so difficult, I think it's a little early to throw up our hands. | ||
| 46champ |
Blake are you speaking facetiously?  | ||
| Rubberdown |
Running around as a backmarker is one thing, and harmless to others. Causing the stop of competition, for a mechanical problem, just as the race for first is heating up is another league of screw-up. Well said Blake. Get it to together EBR. | ||
| Stevel |
I think it is unfair to assess the poor performance to either Geoff or Aaron. The engine has clear survivability issues, as well as inadequate power. The engine desperately needs new cylinder and head castings, not to mention injector placement issues. These castings will take a year to take delivery of, if they start now. | ||
| Blake |
No one is blaming the racers! Not contesting the wet race was beyond lame. Effort talks. Excuses walk. One thing that always impressed me about Jens and associates; they ALWAYS found a way to overcome unforeseen disasters and get the bike onto the grid. | ||
| Blake |
I get the impression that EBR was sold a bill of goods by the current team principle. Doesn't seem that he wants to test or race, just make excuses. You're fired. Simple | ||
| Office_buelly |
I've had my 1125R for a few years now and it's getting time to upgrade, the RS was never going to happen due to the $$$ and I was really looking forward to the RX. The way things are going in the race series is giving me lots of doubt about dropping close to 20K on a bike when I can get one with a proven track record for the same or less. I want to stick with EBR as I like a lot of things they do from an engineering standpoint but I need to know I'm getting return on my investment. At this stage I think I'm leaning toward the Panginale but might delay a bit to see if EBR updates next years model. | ||
| Rsh |
Blake steps up to the plate and calls it. The team is not functioning at the level needed to be competitive in World Superbike. While the RS/RX engine is just adequate for AMA use, it is completely out classed at Word Superbike level and needs a thorough review of what changes are needed and get the best resources available for development. The riders don't even turn lap times competitive with the World Supersport 600's. As racers this has got to drive Geoff and Aaron crazy, I feel for those guys, it does not instill confidence in the bike or team. | ||
| Fast1075 |
(A) Dry deck cylinder. (B) Power Ring. (C) Wet Flow Bench. On the decision to not run the second race (where there was a possibility of getting some points), I bet it was because they would use up another motor in their supply. The burning question is why they are obviously so down on power compared to the RS in spite of the claim that the new motor has more power. What if: The new motor made huge power in the dyno cell during testing using EBR developed ECM, but the motor in the real world makes far less with the MM ECM because whoever is "engineer" does not know what he is doing. Reminds me of a good drag racing story that I need to share one of these days. Remind me to tell you about it. | ||
| Court |
I'll bet this all works out well. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Court- I sure hope so. It can just be an awfully frustrating thing to be a Buell/EBR race fan sometimes. I don't mean to criticize anything Geoff and Aaron are doing. Their only shortcoming is that they haven't ridden these courses before. If a new cylinder and or head casting is what it takes to correct the engine issues, and Hero puts their resources behind the effort, I don't think it'll take a year to accomplish. I wouldn't be surprised if they had them by the next race. | ||
| 46champ |
If a new cylinder and or head casting is what it takes to correct the engine issues, and Hero puts their resources behind the effort, I don't think it'll take a year to accomplish. I wouldn't be surprised if they had them by the next race But would it be legal to race. Would this go against their rules for type design. Seems like like a change in cylinder and head castings would be prohibited. Now if they did this it could rectify this looming PR nightmare. It could be advertised as racing improves the breed and this is what we have done. I almost wonder if they shouldn't throw some 1125 barrels on the bikes and run them that way. Who would know? About the best they are going to finish would be 10th. Never heard of anyone finishing 10th getting tore down. | ||
| Crusty |
It can just be an awfully frustrating thing to be a Buell/EBR race fan sometimes. That it can. In 1999, I rode my S3-T down to Daytona for Bike Week. Shawn Higbee's Buell was the fastest bike in Thunderbike by something like 2 seconds a lap over the second fastest bike. He flat dominated the field whenever he was on the track. When the race started, he crossed the finish line over 2 seconds before the next bike on the opening lap, and his engine blew and he rolled to a stop in the first turn. In 2006, I rode my Uly to Daytona for Bike Week. There were 4 XBRRs entered in the 200. Not one finished the race. Remember when Danny Eslick was leading the 200 on his 1125, and a bad pit stop killed any chance for a win? I grew up in the Greater Boston area. I followed the Red Sox all my life. I know about frustration and disappointment. The team is having hard times right now, but knowing what little I do know about the Elves and their dedication and spirit I believe that they will eventually get a handle on things and the results will come. The way things are going in the race series is giving me lots of doubt about dropping close to 20K on a bike when I can get one with a proven track record for the same or less. Office buelly; if you buy a street bike based strictly on its racetrack performance, you'll never have a good streetbike. I remember reading the Cycle World article where a group of journalists rode up to Laguna Seca for the races (I forget if it was WSBK or Moto GP). the writer who was on the RC51 couldn't find anyone who would trade rides with him, and he was in pain from having to put so much time on such an uncomfortable bike. If you buy a Panigale, you're going to flat love the bill for the first Service, and every valve adjustment after that. You won't be taking any long rides, either. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Of course the EBR can upgrade their design of the engine's heads and cylinders during the season...........I am sure there is a CNC machine somewhere in Italy , that the current EBR WSBK team can order for a correct head and cylinder to be machined ... The organisers are open minded....Look what happenned with Bimota's homologation efford....they are willing to be flexible when really needed ... Sorry , But .... Erik Buell made a very bad statement on that interview about using the WSBK series to race a "budget" 1190RX against "multi-million" racing prototypes....If that was his real intentions, EBR should have entered World SUPESTOCK in the WSBK calendar, where the motorcycles are "showroom" level ...... | ||
| Bads1 |
(Message edited by bads1 on April 27, 2014) | ||
| Bads1 |
Crusty, The Ducati's valve adjustments are spread out way further then they were years ago. Also if you buy a Superbike replica you aren't buying it for 100% Comfort you bought for performance reasons. Also most of these bikes can be set with seats,rear sets and clip on bars to help with comfort area's in the aftermarket. That being said at todays prices if I was to buy a Superbike it would be the AprillIa RSV4. I rode one and loved it. That V4 has grunt like you wouldn't believe. Closest sound to a GP bike I've heard on the street with a pipe. BTW The Pingale has it first valve adjustment at 18,500 miles. The Japanese bikes aren't much better. | ||
| Blake |
Thank for keeping it positive Court. I sure hope a sea change is coming. Office Buelly, Basing a street sport bike purchase on Superbike racing is silly. Not much different than basing a sports car purchase on NASCAR racing. | ||
| Office_buelly |
I disagree guys, it's not like I won't buy the bike unless they win. Before I plop down a sizable amount of money on a new superbike I want to know it performs. Something that most of the other superbikes have already proven. The RX is still proving itself, there isn't enough on the streets yet to get a durability sample from, that leaves the race team to base things off. The engines appear down on power compared to what's advertised, and we haven't heard why. If it's the race ecm okay then that's a non issue on the street bike, but if it's something else then as a consumer I'd want to know. The lack of durability of the down on power race engines isn't giving me as a consumer warm fuzzy feeling either. If the engine was cranking out significant more power then the street bikes I could chalk it up as they're pushing it too far but the power doesn't seem to be there and the engine is still paying the price. I don't think any of these issue are irrelevant. I don't expect the stock bike to be like the bikes yates and may are riding but I think there is info that is transferable. I don't think the comparison to nascar is even worth talking about. There are better examples out there if you want to make that point. While I don't want to go Ducati I think people overplay the maintenance issue and the service costs, I know I was surprised when I began looking at the 1199 the ongoing costs are no more unreasonable. There used to be a saying that anyone can afford to buy a Ducati but no one can afford to keep one. That is no longer true. This all said I really want to get the RX, I just want EBR to convince me I'm not making the wrong choice. | ||
| Ezblast |
Office buelly - total bs - not in your best day will you be putting your bike up to race caliber usage - step away from the pipe. I'm sure any Buell you buy will be more bike than you can handle, let alone the rest of the field. Any bike racing is not using stock parts - period. What amazes me is how many EBR does use in their racing program. Get real. KTMs, Ducati, etc. at that level of performance - all cost premium so price should not be a factor, the question is - how much you enjoy riding the bike itself? Does it inspire confidence in your riding, is it easy to handle and make you smile at every turn and straight - these are the key issues that a rider faces and what really makes the decision hard. For some people a different type of bike entirely ends up meeting their needs - that's ok. But to judge a bike solely on it's racing performance would lead those same bikes in the dust and only Japan should be considered, and that would be no fun at all. EZ | ||
| Classax |
Well, with over 4600 miles on my RX I can definitely say it doesn't lack power against other street bikes. The delivery is not manic at all, just the opposite its so easy to get over confident because you going way faster than it feels. I love the RSV4 as I was about to pull the trigger on one right before the unveil in October. I don't regret my decision a bit. Is the RSV4 more bang for the buck? Probably but I'm definitely faster on the RX because it just a calmer ride. Thank God the brakes are great because I find I needed them more than before. Cory West's bike uses the show room ecu and trapped almost 20mph faster than the MM equipped bikes. The Helicon had ecu troubles early on and it looks like the ET-VT is experiencing similar issues. These days the highest paid guy on the crew has to be the electronics tech. EBR is going to have to find someone who can get that piece sorted or it will be an increasingly frustrating effort for all. I'm confident they're on the right path, sometimes you need a little luck which they appear to be plum out of. (Message edited by classax on April 28, 2014) | ||
| Ljm |
I figure that Tim will have about 30,000 mile on his RX by the end of the summer and then we really have some data on durability in real-world conditions. Those kind of measures out here are going to be the measures of this bike and how it will compare against the competition. | ||
| Blake |
>>> I don't think the comparison to nascar is even worth talking about. Not surprising. Most folks think the racing machines are just hopped up street bikes. The NASCAR analogy isn't far off. AMA Superbike is closer to street bike and even those machines are no street bikes. Your trepidation really is understandable, but it's just not justifiable. | ||
| Simond |
It may not be justifiable but when the pictures from Assen are combined with: " I don't want to turn my motorcycle into a half-million-dollar prototype. I want to see how far we can go with a motorcycle that's really close to what we sell." .....there are a lot of people who are going to think twice before parting with their cash. I don't know what my next bike purchase will be but I'm sure that if anything sold by EBR comes half way close to what I need that is where my money will go. If a blinkered Erik Buell admirer like me is a little concerned what do you think the average bike buying punter is going to think? | ||
| Bud |
WSBK rules are very hard, you can only use so much engines a season, play around to much with the internals ,will need for new homologation popping a other 2, makes deciding racing a very wet / half baked race with restart and only 10 laps, or save some engines for the yet still long season, not a loved decision, but a smart one, trust me there was some serious evil eyeballing in the Hero EBR pitbox, they did not like it, not at all i would have loved it to see theme out in the wet, i think they would have done well kuddos for EBR picking up the gloves, a mighty effort | ||
| Trojan |
This is going to be fun and THIS is THE reason that racing is a game in which everyone wins. I must ask you to but my lottery tickets in future! What of the weekend....EmBaRressing is all I can say. If they are in WSB for PR then they ae gtting all the wrong sort right now. | ||
| Court |
Skill, cunning, knowledge and funding can't change lottery odds. EBR is on a big stage, has the world watching and will do just fine. | ||
| Trojan |
EBR is on a big stage, has the world watching That part I agree with, the disagreement is on what the world thinks of them, and so far that does not look very good at all. Either the factory need to take ocver the race team operation lock stock and barrel and make some immediate and serious changes, or they need to step back and give up at WSb level until the team/riders/bike are good enough for that level of competition. Maybe a season of 'reasonable' results in AMA racing gave them an inflated level of their competitiveness, but WSB is a whole different level up from AMA racing. WSb is not the place to go just to learn more about your bike and develop road bikes. For instance, if it turns out that both failures on Sunday were due to head gaskets, what does that say to prospective buyers? Pulling out of race two entirely says even more, and I'm sure Hero aren't impressed so far with the level of coverage they have got for their invenstment in the team. |
