| Author | Message | ||
     Lornce |
Blake, Don't you have a set of 1250 Nikasil cylinders on your M2? Ever have any of the problems mentioned here with them? Scuffed cylinders, etc? I'm asking, because I bought a ten-year-old, unused NRHS 1250 top end believing Nikasil was a proven product. (Works just fine in 1000cc air-cooled BMW bores for 1/4 million miles or more). Anybody here actually see/have problems with their 1250 Nikasil bores?   | ||
| Buelliedan |
"Dan Dunn at NHRS is a good guy but is not an engine builder/tuner." Somebody needs to tell the AMA and SCTA that I guess, as the engine I personally built last year shattered the 1350cc MPG records last year at Bonneville which were previously held by a very well known engine "builder".  https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/p552x414/1544992_10151986493287535_1205158739_n.jpg (Message edited by buelliedan on April 24, 2014) (Message edited by buelliedan on April 24, 2014) | ||
| Phelan |
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| Buellsrule |
Dan, nothing personal but your shop damn near ruined my set of heads. Cost me 1k to have them fixed. You didnt personally do the work(that was the other Dan) but when asked you offered to do NOTHING ABOUT IT. Do you stand behind your work? Do you now? Regarding my comments about building/tuning, I stand behind those comments. Many here can build something with a proven combination and win. Thanks, Frank. | ||
| 46champ |
My understanding is the other Dan does not work at NRHS any longer. My further understanding is our own Zac4mac is doing the machine work there. | ||
| Blake |
Lorne, I've punished those cylinders viciously, from mid-Summer Texas race/track days, to local Summertime events for children where I let 'em mount up (bike strapped down in truck), crank and rev to their heart's content. No problems whatsoever. | ||
| Trojan |
I don't like to see badmouthing of anyone or their business here. I wasn't badmouthing Hal's, I was recommending them wholeheartedly My concerns were for the early 1250cc nikasil aluminium barrels as we had nothing but trouble with them (twice), and for the price I think there are more effective ways of getting more performance. Maybe they have improved since then of course, as I haven't tried them since 2006. | ||
| Kalali |
I think this thread has run its course...Let's button it down and move on... I guess I'm in the minority here as I am fully content with the power that my X1 puts out right out of the box. I feel this thing can pull a tree stump right outta ground... | ||
| General_ulysses |
Why has this thread run its course? I'd like to know the most cost effective way to build my S1 and am learning quite a bit on this thread. | ||
| Lornce |
"My concerns were for the early 1250cc nikasil aluminium barrels as we had nothing but trouble with them (twice), and for the price I think there are more effective ways of getting more performance." ` Trojan Interested to know more about your issues. What piston ring type (brand and material) and what end gap did you use when you encountered issues? What piston type (brand and material) did you use and what clearances did you run when you had your issues? Thanks for any info you're able to provide.  | ||
| Trojan |
We bought them as a kit and I think they came with CP pistons and Total Seal rings. everything was set up as per the instructions but I can't remember actual gaps etc used. The first kit we had lost a wrist pin clip which then scored up and down the bore a few times just to make sure it was junked  On close inspection it seems that the groove in the piston just wasn't deep enough. Next time I used teflon buttons instead of wrsit pin clips. Second time was on a different bike. This time everything worked pretty well although we saw no real increase in power over the stock setup. After a few hundred miles I stripped the top end and found that the bores were very badly scored on the rear barrel and lightly scored on the front (both scored fore and aft direction, not where the wrist pin was), resulting in trashing them too. Eventually we used a set of 883 barrels that had done 60K+ miles and had been removed by the owner when he fitted a big bore kit to his H-D Sportster. I had these bored to maximum oversize which gave us 1213cc I think, then used Wiseco high compression 12.5:1 pistons. This setup gave us the most power and never had any issues whatsoever. I suspect that these barrels had gone through so many heat cycles that they were never going to go oval in a million years! I must stress these were both on race bikes, so did get hard use (although used with Torco synthetic oil fresh every meeting). | ||
| Buelliedan |
I am not going to get into an argument with you Frank about something that happened in 2008 which I have absolutely no recollection of. As for this comment: "Many here can build something with a proven combination and win." Please tell me the proven combination to make a 1350cc Sportster engine go over 170 mph as I am sure there are lots of folks who race at Bonneville who would like to know this easy to do build of which you speak. Funny how nobody else has ever been able to go over 170 mph in that class if it is so easy. And this is a class that is probably the most well represented every year for pushrod engines. (Message edited by buelliedan on April 25, 2014) (Message edited by buelliedan on April 25, 2014) | ||
| Kalali |
"...everything was set up as per the instructions..." I don't claim to know nearly as much as some of the folks here when it comes to building push-rod motorcycle engines and don't mean to start a debate, but out of curiosity, what makes you so sure that nothing went wrong during assembly. I'm sure I'm not alone here to have followed instructions for one thing or another and ended up missing something along the way. Easy to blame the parts and/or the instructions.... | ||
| Jayvee |
BUELLSRULE with the Life History / Philosophy: Not I, but Christ(Gal.2:19,20) Yellow bikes being "gay" that's according to Jesus, then? So'gay' bike right here...(well, he does look pretty happy):  | ||
| Lornce |
"I don't claim to know nearly as much as some of the folks here when it comes to building push-rod motorcycle engines and don't mean to start a debate, but out of curiosity, what makes you so sure that nothing went wrong during assembly. I'm sure I'm not alone here to have followed instructions for one thing or another and ended up missing something along the way. Easy to blame the parts and/or the instructions...." - Kalali More or less my thoughts on the matter. Without technical specifics and assurance of correct procedures there are simply too many variables and unknowns to fairly assess the outcome. I do know that correctly fitted Nikasil bores can and do work without issue, maintaining their dimensional and surface integrity, for hundreds of thousands of miles. The 1.25mm piston pin circlips supplied with 1250 CP pistons are a common item. They're suited to high rpm applications for reliable, low mass, non-deforming performance and ease of fitment. ymmv, fwiw, imho. Lornce | ||
| Trojan |
but out of curiosity, what makes you so sure that nothing went wrong during assembly. The motor was assembled very carefully I can promise. When we measured the circlip slots after the event we found that the left side (the side that had 'popped out') was shallower than the other side by a fraction of a mm. That could have been enough to mean the clip couldn't seat or it could just be acceptable manufacturing tolerance and we were unlucky? It was 8 years ago nearly so my recollections of exact measurements is a dim and distant memory now unfortunately What I am absolutely sure about is that we got more power by using stock overbored barrels and high comp pistons than we did with the 1250 kit. We spent quite a lot of dyno time messing around with different permutations and fuelling devices. | ||
| Swamp2 |
Speaking of 1250... The X1 I bought off here off the classifieds last November has Millenium stamped into the bases of the cylinders. I assume these are probably 1250? Anybody know what else it's likely to suggest (e.g. compression, Nikasil etc)? Also has race ECM, race exhaust and muffler, low restriction intake. Anyway, it runs very strong - definitely spunkier than my apparently stock '99 S3. (Message edited by swamp2 on April 26, 2014) | ||
| Lornce |
"The motor was assembled very carefully I can promise. When we measured the circlip slots after the event we found that the left side (the side that had 'popped out') was shallower than the other side by a fraction of a mm. That could have been enough to mean the clip couldn't seat or it could just be acceptable manufacturing tolerance and we were unlucky? - Trojan Interesting. How exactly did you measure the circlip groove? Please be specific. What were your observations? I'd be very surprised to learn CP's mfg'ing tolerances weren't somewhere in the neighbourhood of +/-0.0001". Or better. "What I am absolutely sure about is that we got more power by using stock overbored barrels and high comp pistons than we did with the 1250 kit." - Trojan Of course you did. 12.5:1 compression would almost assuredly net greater increases in torque and power than an additional 50cc at 10:1. But you're an experienced engine builder/tuner. You knew that, right? If I may be so bold, you're comparing apples to oranges and claiming bananas. All without any useful technical details or information. Which would be fine (I guess?) if you weren't trashing the reputation of good and knowledgeable people with a solid record for quality, performance and customer satisfaction. | ||
| Damnut |
Which would be fine (I guess?) if you weren't trashing the reputation of good and knowledgeable people with a solid record for quality, performance and customer satisfaction Sounds to me like you are trying to do the same with Trojan? I'm sure everything that comes out of the NRHS shop is and always has been perfect, right? I trust Matt (Trojan) and the info he posts on this website. He is a valued member of this board and the Buell community. He is stating HIS experience with the NRHS kits which may differ from yours. | ||
| Phelan |
I'm not sure if Trojan was talking about NRHS 1250 kits or older 1250 kits in general. He never said which brand. | ||
| Lornce |
"I trust Matt (Trojan) and the info he posts on this website. He is a valued member of this board and the Buell community. He is stating HIS experience with the NRHS kits which may differ from yours." - Damnut That's just it: There hasn't been any shared information. So far it's just opinions without substance or apparent technical familiarity. I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm just trying to sift through some of the leavings in this thread and weigh them accordingly. | ||
| General_ulysses |
As I read this, it seems the added 50cc's the 1250 kit offers isn't what's really making any significant difference in real power and torque (slight displacement bragging rights not withstanding). It sounds like stock jugs are fine to use unless you're going for an all out monster engine (where money is no object). The real drivers for moderate to reasonably hot rodded engines are: 1. Increased compression ratio achieved with new pistons and/or heads 2. Effective and well thought out squish areas 3. Appropriate porting or simply replace with better flowing heads (i.e. thunderstorms or XB's) 4. Possibly using different cams, depending on your power/torque rpm requirements 5. Possibly use a higher flowing exhaust, depending on torque/hp rpm range requirements 6. Improved FI fuel mapping or carburation/intake/filtration system 7. Remapped ignition curves From what I'm getting here, this is the real way to make power. Not by adding a mere 50cc's more displacement. Nikasil bores are an irrelevant side show as well. This can be done with standard/proven/inexpensive jugs, bored or not. Is that about right? | ||
| Lornce |
General ulysses - "From what I'm getting here, this is the real way to make power. Not by adding a mere 50cc's more displacement. Nikasil bores are an irrelevant side show as well. This can be done with standard/proven/inexpensive jugs, bored or not. Is that about right?" That's more or less my take, GU. Though, over the long haul, Nikasil can hold bore surface integrity much more effectively than conventional iron bores. It's an extremely hard and long wearing surface preparation that's been used for 40 years in a variety of engines. Porsche's 928 V8 was it's first production engine application in the mid '70's, iirc. | ||
| Blake |
Efficiency of heat transfer matters for higher performance engines. Iron is much inferior in that compared to aluminum. Porsche and BMW understand this, so too the architects of the 150 RWHP XBRR, which used Nicasil plated cylinders by Millennium. | ||
| Blake |
Well handled Dan. Frank, If it were me, I'd have returned the merchandise and asked that it be fixed. $1000 sure is a petty justification for publicly attacking a man and his business online. You should talk to Captain Pete about his ordeal. | ||
| Kc_zombie |
Off the subject yellow or not (I like yellow BTW) I freakin dig that EBR RX! | ||
| Trojan |
General Ulysses, you have hit the nail on the head methinks regardless of the problems we had with our kits (and I didn't mention the make deliberately as things may have changed sine our experience)I agree that an extra 50cc isn't going to be the performance boost that some may expect. All the htings you list are more important and only when these are at the best they can possibly be would I think the extra 50cc would make much difference. In our case the biggest power difference was due to the high comp pistons and Hal's work on the heads (combined with a full race exhaust/fuelling etc). | ||
| General_ulysses |
Thanks Trojan and Lornce. Practically speaking, how high can you take the compression ratio on pump gas? I always run either 92 or 93 octane gas if I can get it. And how do you deal with that high compression on hot days with a lot of heat soak? Is there a way to have the timing retard automatically under these circumstances? I don't want a pingy, preignition/detonation prone machine on hot days while driving in stop n' go traffic. | ||
| Buelliedan |
I believe Trojan said he was using a Millenium 1250 kit which used completely different cylinders that what is used in current NRHS 1250 kits. So it truly is comparing apples and oranges as they have nothing in common except for being 1250cc. | ||
| Trojan |
Practically speaking, how high can you take the compression ratio on pump gas? We always ran ours on race gas (110 octane) so I can't answer that one. Yes ours were Millenium cylinders. |
