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Uly_man
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 10:18 am: |
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On changing out the rear tire I found, on torquing up the axle to spec, that there was a high(ish) wheel turning resistance. At a slightly lower torque setting it is fine which I would say is down to an over crushed spacer. While in the past I have ALWAYS used HD spec torque settings I have decided to use my own, good or bad, engineering judgement on this issue. This, of course, is MY call and MY fault if there is a problem but I have, due to other problems, no faith in HDs torque settings. In any event I can not see that once the axle is torqued to a decent level and the pinch bolt is in place what the problem, if any, you might have. It is a 10 bike with triple bearings that seem fine so we will see what happens. (Message edited by uly_man on April 19, 2014) |
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Panhead_dan
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 10:44 am: |
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Very un-scientific move. To assume that the resistance is due to the torque without exploring other possibilities could easily be a mistake. Consider bearing alignment, for example. If the center spacer is causing a lateral load on the bearings because of mis-alignment, it would act just as you describe. Less torque my relieve that load but at what cost? |
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Jesse_lackman
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 10:56 am: |
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I'd say that's good judgment. The main thing is that there is enough torque to keep the inner races from turning on the axle. The outer races are held by the interference fit in the wheel. It's a weird design, ball roller bearings shouldn't be side loaded - which is what over tightening the axle will do. The inner races will be pulled to the inside of the outer races. If the side loads are too much they fail. The axle spacer length is critical to prevent side loading. |
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Uly_man
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 11:02 am: |
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"Very un-scientific move". Yes that is VERY true. "Less torque my relieve that load but at what cost?" My ass and my problem and trust me Guy if there IS a problem then I will KNOW about it right away. The inner and outer rings NEED to be perfectly in-line. That is an engineering FACT and anything else will damage the bearings. |
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Jesse_lackman
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 11:05 am: |
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Dan it depends if the increased torque is from side loading of the bearings or not. The only other thing increased torque could come from is when the axle spacer grabs and starts turning the inner races - the moment when the inner races stop turning on the axle. I suppose you could leave an axle seal out to see what torque grabs the inner races, you would think you would not need much more torque than that. I've read of crushed axle spacers, that would create a huge side load problem, even at the correct torque bearings could not be expected to live. I'd like to know what torque Uly_man ended up at. |
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Uly_man
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 11:06 am: |
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Jesse_lackman. Jeepers guy it is good to hear some good engineering sense for once. |
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Jesse_lackman
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 11:10 am: |
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I wonder if anyone has actually measured the stack to see how much side load there is? Theoretically the spacer should be just enough longer than the length between the outer race seats in the wheel to lock the inner races to the axle at the correct torque spec. I have three new rear spacers, and one on the motorcycle. I should measure them to see who close they are. |
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Uly_man
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 11:31 am: |
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Jesse. If it was me I would fit a set of bearings and then measure the space between the two inner bearing rings. I would then make a steel spacer, fit it with the bearings and test the alignment of the inner and outer bearing rings over a number of torque settings. I think the issue is with the alloy spacer for a number of reasons. The main one being is that you have NO IDEA for sure what a used ones length is IE Good or bad. The critical factor is that the bearing MUST and repeat MUST BE PERFECTLY in alignment or it will be TOAST in a VERY short time. Anyway I am going my OWN WAY and will deal with the consistence as needed. |
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Motorbike
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 11:36 am: |
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Who determined the torque specs in the book anyway. I don't think it was H-D but rather Buell engineers. Please correct me if I'm wrong. |
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Uly_man
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 11:40 am: |
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Good question? |
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Jesse_lackman
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 11:54 am: |
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Correction: I have two new rear spacers, they are both the exact same length, 6.7365. +- .0005 @ 56°F It will be interesting to see what the used spacer length is. I don't know how many times the rear wheel has been off, I had it off once to replace the tire and will have it off again to replace it with a new wheel/TKC80. That is when I will check its length. I don't know if a steel spacer is a good idea because the wheel is aluminum. The wheel and spacer should expand/contract at the same rate to not affect side loading. |
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Hughlysses
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 12:04 pm: |
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^ Hopefully those are 2010 rear wheel spacers. For comparison, here are the dimensions for a rear spacer tube for the 2006-2009 rear wheel from an old post by Al Lighton: Rear Spacer Tube: 202.8 +/- 0.05 mm, 7.984 +/- 0.002 inch Temperature not stated, so I'd guess this is at something like 72 degrees F. |
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Arry
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 12:04 pm: |
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Several Buell problems caused by torque specs that are too high. Too bad, we have enough problems without being misdirected by our service manuals. |
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Jesse_lackman
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 12:05 pm: |
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I'd guess in the age of CNC machining the dimensions are very close to perfect. The problem is potentially side loading the ball roller bearings. Uly_man your approach is probably the best one, if the spacer isn't damaged use enough torque on the axle to lock up the inner races. That is probably about the best that can be done with the ball roller bearing design. I would have to think that's how the Buell engineers came up with the axle torque spec. But they have no control over what happens out in the real world. |
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Jesse_lackman
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 12:09 pm: |
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Hughlysses, yes, the ones I just measured are for a three bearing wheel. |
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Thumper1203
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 05:51 pm: |
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Just chiming in here.. I have never used the factory axle "final" torque designated in the service manual. After having experienced what Uly_man did (rotational resistance @ final) many years ago. I now go by feel, which I would (and I approximate here) guess to be 8-10 or so ft/lbs less. Of the three Buell XB's I own and have self-maintained in the last 8 years, I have never lost a bearing, or galled an axle. I did upgrade the Uly to the robust 3-bearing setup for peace of mind.. just because. I also burnish with 000 stainless wool & spray my axles with "battery post spray" which sets-up to a light shellac, but not as hard as.. to keep corrosion at bay. The engineers at Buell got it right on the 3-bearing axle with the hard anodizing. |
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Sagehawk
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 07:00 pm: |
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Has the wheel been measured to locate the bearings at their shoulders and then determine spacer length? Mass produced wheels have a tolerance that the lows and highs of bearing locations may not match sleeve length. Two bearing wheels are to have brake disc side installed and shouldered. Sleeve in and install drive side bearing. Support disc bearing fully, not wheel, and press drive side bearing to sleeve or wheel shoulder. If sleeve is short, then you will load bearing, if sleeve is long bearing wont shoulder up. Ive wondered this when i installed mine, but no issues to date. Used a hydralic press and took time to find things to fit bearing diameters properly |
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Jesse_lackman
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 08:22 pm: |
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It would actually be good if the last bearing didn't quite shoulder up, then there wouldn't be any side loading of the bearings. |
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Motorbike
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 10:31 pm: |
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Sagehawk, you got part of that right. After you put the spacer in, you should have pressed the next bearing in so that you are pressing on the inner and outer race at the same time with a flat disk that keeps both races in the same plane. You push it in until the inner race seats on the spacer tube and quit there, even if the outer race does not seat in the wheel. It does not have to seat. If you push the second bearing in until it seats against the shoulder in the hub, I guarantee you will side load the bearings and eventually have a failure. Thanks. |
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Etennuly
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 10:54 pm: |
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What he said![](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/wstupid.gif) |
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Griffmeister
| Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2014 - 11:15 pm: |
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If the spacer is the proper length then there is no way that the last bearing pressed in should contact the shoulder. That's the whole idea behind the design, the last bearing "floats" and the axle torque is applied to the inner races. Since the outer race still fits kind of snug in the bore it is important to use a bearing installer that will press on both races until contact is made with the spacer. Then when you do the final torque you are only ensuring that the inner races and spacer(s) work together with no slippage. There should have been no additional movement unless the spacer is starting to deform. |
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Sagehawk
| Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2014 - 10:43 am: |
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Two bearing wheels are to have brake disc side installed and shouldered. Sleeve in and install drive side bearing. Support disc bearing fully, not wheel, and press drive side bearing to sleeve or wheel shoulder. If sleeve is short, then you will load bearing, if sleeve is long bearing won't shoulder up. To clarify post, I had machined shafting .010" under bearing od and long enough to press disc side bearing into bore shouldering bearing in hub. shaft was long enough that when wheel was flipped in press, wheel bearing was supported to press against. dropped sleeve in and pressed drive side bearing in with another piece of shafting to shoulder against sleeve or housing. which ever it was going to shoulder against. In all the wheel bearings that i have done, Yamaha, kawasaki, husky, honda, and harley davidson, i have rarely not been able to put a finger into sleeve and been able to scoot sleeve around some, indicating sleeve is not totally captured by the two bearing inner races. some more than others. haven't had wheel bearings fail on other bikes like the the ulysses reputation. I've only done my rear bearings once and front bearings are good at this time. Hope this clarifies my post up for a total understanding of what i did say. Wishing you guys a happy easter! hope no one is having to work today! |
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Motorbike
| Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2014 - 12:26 pm: |
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Sagehawk, Happy Easter to you as well! It seems to me that if you get the second bearing installed and the outer race seats against the shoulder in the hub, then your spacer is too short or the wheel is not machined properly. If that spacer is short at all, side load will be applied to the bearings when you torque up the rear axle because the axle will try to squish the inner races toward each other until they seat on the spacer tube. Of course, there is always the slight chance that the wheel and spacer could all be machined perfectly from the factory and both bearings could seat in the hub and against the spacer with no side loading at all. But I doubt it. Thanks. |
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Griffmeister
| Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2014 - 10:55 pm: |
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Yeah, as per the manual, rotor side bearing goes in first up to the shoulder. Opposite (drive) side bearing goes in until it contacts the spacer. If this bearing hits the shoulder, then the spacer is too short. I believe the 2010 wheel is similar, the parts are just a little different. The axle has a longer section where the double bearings sit, shorter spacer naturally, outside dirt seals and an extra spacer on the outside of the rotor side. Someone here brought their 2010 wheel to a shop to have a new tire installed and forgot the little spacer was still in the wheel. He got the wheel back sans spacer without realizing it and wondered why the wheel would not go on right. When he discovered what was wrong, he went back to the shop and the spacer was still on the floor where it fell out. I guess that's true of anything, there are no spare parts unless the box says so.![](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/beater.gif) |
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Uly_man
| Posted on Monday, April 21, 2014 - 09:22 am: |
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"I now go by feel, which I would (and I approximate here) guess to be 8-10 or so ft/lbs less". Which is, funnily enough, what I used. I have NEVER had a total failure on my wheel bearings but I have had, over two bikes, one rear and two front sets changed as they were going bad. In all cases it was from factory fitted bearings and no water damage/ grease leaks either. "From Al Lighton. Rear Spacer Tube: 202.8 +/- 0.05 mm, 7.984 +/- 0.002 inch". These sort of numbers show up the problem of an alloy spacer and would not happen with a steel one. If +/- 0.002 inch is from new what is it once set up. No one has ANY IDEA and is just guess work. +/- 0.002 inch is VERY LITTLE and would be easy to exceed on alloy so it is then over crushed and made worse if done up to spec torque. My 10 bikes rear bearings had a very slight "ball race" feel, wheel off the bike, to them that may have been "taken up" once the wheel was torqued up but who knows if that is the case. And THAT is the point, you do NOT know for sure? Mixing metals on a common shaft in the conditions a bike works does not seem like a good idea and for what reason? Corrosion problems are worse than steel or was it for better un-sprung weight? |
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Electraglider_1997
| Posted on Monday, April 21, 2014 - 09:38 am: |
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I've got the 2010 rear wheel on my 06' ULY and haven't experienced any problem with it so far and really don't worry about it like we all did with the original wimpy setup. That being said, I'll wager that 3 bearings of the size we now have is overkill. I mean, the bearings are way bigger than the old ones and they have a seal on each end of the axle which is great. I'd just as soon they'd gone with just the two larger bearings and the seals and called it good enough. Does anyone know whether the 1190 rear has two or three bearings? That would be very telling considering the power of that bike compared to the ULY. |
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Satori
| Posted on Monday, April 21, 2014 - 10:49 am: |
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Well According to the parts "book" on AF-1's site. Page 16 shows a three bearing setup on the 1190RX. Two on the drive side, with the same sort of seals as the 2010 wheel. Seems clear that the original 2 bearing setup was lacking, why else would Erik go with the three bearing setup? http://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodList.as p?idCategory=2803 |
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Uly_man
| Posted on Monday, April 21, 2014 - 11:15 am: |
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"why else would Erik go with the three bearing setup?". You could also ask WHY He went from the AKD to AKF belts or any of the other changes on the bikes from 06 to 2010 as well? |
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Satori
| Posted on Monday, April 21, 2014 - 05:46 pm: |
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Uly Man, My point is that if it wasn't the best route, I'm betting Erik wouldn't build it that way. He no longer is constrained in having to get somebody's permission to build his bike the way he wants or believes to be the best solution. As for the rest, that's just product development, find the weaknesses that you didn't find at the start, and improve on them. |
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Uly_man
| Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2014 - 02:12 pm: |
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"My point is that if it wasn't the best route, I'm betting Erik wouldn't build it that way. He no longer is constrained in having to get somebody's permission to build his bike the way he wants or believes to best solution". Well before the 10 wheel all XBs used the 2 bearing setup which may or may not have been ok for there power. The "R" series bikes used the 10 wheel which may have been because of there power which is closer to the 1190RX bike. I think it would have been more about standardization of parts while, Buell were under HD, for there ongoing bike range at the time. Also maybe to add some confidence over the old setup. The 10 wheel is "overkill" on a XB but hey why not, bigger is better with bearings. The seals are a great idea. But remember this you can still mess up the bearings on a 10 wheel if not fitted right, as some here know, and I am sure at some point it will happen with the 1190RX as well. |
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