| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
I'm pretty sure that the first year of competition for the Panigale was 2012, The FIM Superstock Cup (what I still refer to as the European Superstock!) had numerous 1199 Panigales entered in addition to a few of the 1198 models. 1199 Panigales were.... triple M racing (Marc Moser) Althea racing (Federico Sandi) DMC racing (Kev Coghlan,Robbie Brown,Alexai Ivanov) Barni Racing Team (Lorenzo Savadori,Eddie lamara) CNS Motorsport (Enrique ferrer) BSB did have one privately entered Panigale (Moto Rapido)although performance was woeful. | ||
| Gschuette |
Reep, I'm not comparing the EBR to the standard models from the big four. It isn't priced or spec'd to compete with Japan (excluding Honda's new SP) but instead the best bikes from Europe. The V4 Aprilia, the frameless L-Twin Ducati, a slightly traditional yet insanely fast HP4, and the always pretty MV. The big four are hardly the same. Ride a CBR 1000 and a R1 back to back and you'll note they are nothing alike. I realize money is always lost in racing. Unless EBR has applied to become a primary dealer with the Fed, I don't see how they will have access to unlimited $$$$. So with that off the table they need outside money to continue, and that comes a bit easier with results and tv exposure. As Trojan clarified, the Ducati team stayed in a roundabout manner in WSBK with Checa but they were racing a bike that they had amassed a ton of data with over the previous seasons, on tracks they had already raced, with an established WSBK and former MotoGP rider. None of that can be said about the EBR situation. I still believe the 1199 makes an interesting case study for EBR. Ducati knew they had a radical (and perhaps hard to tune) bike on they hands and they knew the task ahead would be difficult. EBR has no less radical a bike on their hands and the same power train limitations in a twin. I was thinking last night that it would have been really cool if instead of WSBK, EBR stuck around in AMA and then fielded a two bike Isle of Man TT team. One race to prepare for, all of the motorcycle world knows about, and the panache that goes with winning the TT. Just pondering cheaper ways to gain international fame in the motorcycle world. Just dreaming out loud I suppose. I could be wrong but I don't think Joey Dunlop has a ride. Get him on an EBR and run a global ad campaign of him launching an EBR four feet off the ground on a narrow street at 120 mph. That would be killer! Now for Daytona, excluding an EBR win, I couldn't be happier to see my beloved cross plane R1s continue to dominate! It's sad to see what DMG is doing to AMA road racing, hopefully I can get to Barber this year and see a race before some other catastrophic loss of race dates occurs. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I was thinking last night that it would have been really cool if instead of WSBK, EBR stuck around in AMA and then fielded a two bike Isle of Man TT team. One race to prepare for, all of the motorcycle world knows about, and the panache that goes with winning the TT. I believe Trojan has previously stated there is really no suitable class for big twins in the TT. It would still be cool to see though. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I'd say the fact that EBR moved their focus to WSBK from AMA shows how far ahead they are looking. I feel bad for Yamaha and Josh Hayes, who are fielding an amazing bike and rider, in a series that has crashed and burned. I respect what Ducati has been able to achieve in world class racing venues. But I respect it even more because I think they (like EBR) have a much higher hill to climb than the typical inline four in order to get competitive peak horsepower for a given displacement. My beef with your beef is that you keep comparing them to others, then saying they are wrong or stupid for doing it differently. For some of us, one of the main reason we are fans of the brand is precisely because they do choose to do things differently. It isn't always better, but it is for sure always interesting. I'll take much more interesting and much more elegant over "6% better" every time, but that's just my opinion. EBR already made more money racing than any other manufacturer will likely make in the next 10 years. They just made it indirectly, and they made it for Hero. Before the EBR / Hero partnership (which includes the race program), Hero was an unknown quantity that was loosing a premire technical partner and investors were fleeing, customers had doubts, and the stock price was low. After that relationship, the negative of loosing a partnership with Honda started to look like it could actually be a positive with native ambition and talent at Hero, coupled with the radical innovation from EBR. As a result, the capitalization (net worth) of Hero went up by a HUGE amount. So while EBR / Hero are loosing money racing, Hero had made millions on it before the first WSBK race even started. From here it's a bike development and brand recognition program. Neither of those require podiums (and in fact running with no ambition besides winning would probably be counterproductive to the bike development effort). Thats the corporate reason anyway. The personal reason is that you couldn't stop the EBR elves from racing if you wanted too. Now that they have their own company, they are going to race. The fact that it makes business sense just makes it easier for them to keep a straight face in front of spouses, investors, and corporate lawyers when they talk about it.  | ||
| Gschuette |
I have no beef with EBR doing it differently. That is why I too am a fan of their bikes. Crew chief gaffe aside, I accused no one of any stupidity. I wouldn't personally consider any other bike if I had a spare $19,000 but that doesn't mean others would spend their money the same way. Racing is a comparison game. Who is the fastest? The market is a comparison game. Who sells the most or is the most profitable? So for me or anyone else to avoid comparing EBR to it's competitors seems a bit odd, and perhaps fearful of the result. When I bought my R1 I compared it to the rest of the field and decided it was the best bike for what I wanted at the time. Most people affluent enough to be able to spend 19 stacks on a motorcycle are likely to do a similar bit of comparison. To act as if EBR exists in a vacuum devoid of any competitors does the brand a disservice. My sole beef centers around what I perceive to be too big of bites. "Oh yeah! We made a bike!" Hell yeah! Go EBR! "Oh yeah! let's race that bike in AMA super bike" Hell yeah Go EBR! "Oh yeah! we still haven't sold any to street riders or been competitive in AMA but lets take the fight to WSBK!" Ok, wait timeout guys, let's think about this for a second. | ||
| M2typhoon |
HERO might have had a say in the WSBK entry since they invested millions in EBR although, I'd like to be proven wrong with proof and not an "I think" statement. (Message edited by m2typhoon on March 20, 2014) | ||
| Reepicheep |
History is full of completely mad decisions... "Lets sail around the earth to get to our opposite coast, even though it is flat" "Lets replace horses with self propelled machines" "Forget the battleship, we are using aircraft carriers" "Lets take a multi million dollar computer, but make one that will work on a desktop" "Lets provide content on the Internet for free, and make money that way". | ||
| Crusty |
"Oh yeah! we still haven't sold any to street riders or been competitive in AMA but lets take the fight to WSBK!" Why do you say they weren't competitive in AMA? They finished in the top 10 nearly every race, made it up on the box a couple of times and with only a couple of exceptions, were the fastest and best finishing twins out there. Or do you consider winning every race, like Graves Yamaha is doing the only measure of competitive success? You know that this is a Buell (and EBR) enthusiast's board, don't you? what exactly bothers you about people here being supportive and enthusiastic about EBRs racing efforts? Or are you so miserable that you will intentionally seek out positive responses and try to kill any hope or joy? Do you enjoy denigrating any success that EBR has and strive to show the weak areas as proof that the Company is failing? Come on; they're out there and doing their best. Based on my experiences with the Elves, I think it's only a matter of time before they learn enough to be consistently at or near the top. In other words, "Lighten up, Francis!" | ||
| Reepicheep |
And don't get me wrong... I get your point and don't disagree with it. There will be a lot of traditionalists that decide that because EBR is racing but not winning, then EBR must be failing. I guess I can sum up my perspective with the following counterpoints... 1) Its the first season for a completely new team with a completely new bike. Of *course* it isn't winning yet. 2) You race WSBK because you want to and you can, not because you know you will win. If the latter was the case, every team would stop racing each season the moment they were mathematically eliminated from first place by points. 3) I can think of no better way to develop a new hypersport platform quickly and effectively than a season of experimental WSBK racing. 4) Loosing in WSBK is better advertising than winning at staying home from WSBK. Particularly if your business model does not require massive sales volumes to be successful. | ||
| Trojan |
Loosing in WSBK is better advertising than winning at staying home from WSBK. Only if you are on the same level of competitiveness aas your rivals. if you are getting lapped every race then that argument stands on its head. Ihope that they come back more competitive at Aragon and can at elast race against some fo the other factory bikes and ahead of the EVO class entries. People are judging EBR by their performance against other factory teams unfortunately (regardless of how small or new that factory may be). I believe Trojan has previously stated there is really no suitable class for big twins in the TT. The EBR 1190 could run in the Superbike or Superstock class at the TT now, although twins never seem to fare too well at the TT in recent years. The TT course is pretty much flat out on the throttle stop for miles on end and needs a very fast but also very reliable bike to win. It is no coincidence that Honda put so much effort into their TT entries and do so well every year. I think making a successful TT winner is just as difficult, or maybe even harder as making a winning WSB entry. These days teams don't just take superbikes to the TT but build bikes and teams specifically for that one race. Norton have spent a lot of time and money so far developing their (aprilia engined) TT bike, and will have Cameron Donald riding it this year at the TT. EBR would need to run a similar development project and hire a similarly experienced rider if they wanted to try and do well on the island. | ||
| Classax |
The TT machines are completely different animals than anything else out there. Even the Superstock class is highly modified. Tops speeds are about Aerodynamics and HP/Gearing/Revs ratios. Twins typically don't fair as well because against the I4 because they run out of Revs long before the I4's do even while making near the same power. I stated before that this sport is equal parts machine, rider, setup, and luck. I don't buy "the EBR wasn't competitive in AMA" line because with the right rider it was(Eslick had a great year on it) I'm inclined to think even if you get the machine, set up and luck part down you will still be mid field because of our chosen riders. Good as they are, you have aliens at the front in WSBK. Put an alien on the 1190RX with the right set up and a little luck, and I think you can compete with any other alien on nearly any other bike. | ||
| Trojan |
I think at the moment the rules and opposition in WSB favour 4 cylinder bikes, so EBR and Ducati will continue to struggle and KTM won't play at all. Twins were ruling WSb a few years ago simply because they had a weight advantage and various 'cheats' available in the rules to try and make the playing field level between different bikes. These days they don't enjoy those benefits and are nowhere near aas compeitive as they were. Add in sophisticated electronics that make 4 cylinder bikes think they are twins in the corners, so saving tyre wear, and even the small advantage a twin had is now gone  At the moment EBR could put Tom Sykes or Eugene Laverty on their bike and it would not win a WSB race simply because it is not fast enough. Until the rules start to favour twin cylinder machines again or EBR extract a LOT more performance, I don't think they will challenge for wins regardless of rider choice (although I don't think they are doing themselves any favours with their current line up for sure!) | ||
| Classax |
Mat to be be clear the words "compete" and "win" at least in the way I use them are not the same. I don't expect the Panigale to WIN a race this year either, but I do expect it to force the 4 bangers to ride hard to earn those wins though. Compete( to me) for EBR means out pacing all the EVOs and dicing with the factory teams not piloted by the aliens from planet speed at the front. The 4 cylinder machines by virtue of the their ability to rev 2-4K higher than the twins while making the same or more BHP, aerodynamics and gearing being equal will always top out higher than the twins. Add to this the GPS driven set up data many teams are miles ahead on using and EBR has a tall order to fill. Still even with all of that the machines are with the 105% of the best laps, which in the grand scheme of things is truly difficult for anyone let alone on new machinery to do. (Message edited by classax on March 21, 2014) | ||
| Gschuette |
I don't consider top 10 without the Yamahas in sight at the end of the race competitive. The Yamaha is a five year old super bike. EBR needs to be competitive against a somewhat stale Japanese bike if they think they have a chance of taking the fight to the recently more aggressive European brands in WSBK. Please read my comments and not someone else's interpretation of them. I do not consider EBR to be a failure. I am enthusiastic and supportive of EBR efforts. I have an EBR sticker on the under tail of my R1. I want them to compete and win.  This is a forum. It is a Buell/EBR forum. It is a place to discuss things. I am not one to celebrate the achievement of showing up on raceday. I am one who will celebrate a well laid plan and a solid execution of that plan with quality results. I am a fan of the intent to race WSBk at the right time. My entire argument centers around the rushed nature of the WSBK effort. Just look at BMW! Guys, come on! Look at the facts. BMW has arguably the fastest super bike in street trim to build from. They struggled for a couple seasons in WSBK and ultimately got up to pace and had a few race wins. Then, THEY PULLED OUT! Come one guys! WSBK is not a walk in the park! BM freaking W decided their efforts were better spent elsewhere and that was with one of the best IL4 motors in the paddock. Do you not see the scope of the undertaking here? I'm not saying they can't succeed, I'm not saying EBR sucks, I'm not saying EBR is stupid, I'm not saying any of that. I am saying WSBK is ultra competitive and it takes a complete package (including riders) and a well laid out plan to compete. Mid pack AMA riders are not going to cut it in WSBK. I highly doubt Aaron Yates can win a WSBK race on the Aprilia or Kawasaki. So Eslick was great on the EBR. Where is he? He isn't in WSBK, he's winning Daytona Supersport races on a Triumph. His abilities on the EBR are moot. No apologies, the EBR WSBK plan is not currently up to snuff, and the undertaking ahead is massive. I've said the same thing 80 times now and I will say it again. Ah I love a good back and forth on a forum. Much more fun than a bunch of people in total agreement, wouldn't you say?  | ||
| Nobuell |
I only counted 78 times. I agree with you thoughts on lively discussion. It sure beats the discussions in 2009 | ||
| Bads1 |
Vincent, they are all getting long in the teeth. Yamaha 2008, Honda 2008. Suzuki 2005.Litle changes were made to these models over the years. | ||
| Fast1075 |
The thing about pit mishaps and miscalculations can happen to anyone. I'll share a couple of my own. I was at a $10,000.00 to win E.T. bracket race. Final round. I was to spot my competition 1.21 seconds. I had the best delay box money could buy, a Biondi triple hit box. I had been cutting .010 lights all day. I set the delay to .121 and redlighted HUGE. At another race. Serviced my clutch, bike on stands. Cranked the engine to test the stall. Whacked the throttle once to bed it. I had accidentally turned on the controls toggle when I armed the ignition. When the revs hit 10,200 rpm, the auto shift shifted the transmission from neutral to second. Can you say KABOOM!?. The best one: Changing nitrous nozzles to change from a 9.20 index to an 8.90 index. Inverted the nozzle sizes. Big nitrous nozzles/small fuel nozzles. At the top of third gear it lifted the head. Yup, that was me | ||
| Gschuette |
I singled out Yamaha because it's the bike everyone is chasing in AMA. | ||
| Blake |
GS, Comparing the street bike performance as a measure of competitiveness in WSBK is REALLY silly, even more so for years past. The racing machine are far removed from any streetbike, not quite as far removed as say a NASCAR Cup machine is to its commercial namesake, but you get the idea. What wins and is competitive in WSBK are great teams, with great riders who have the means and the desire and the driven leadership to achieve more and more success. Put any serious superbike into the hands of a Yoshimura or Graves team and do you doubt they couldn't make it competitive? Richie Morris is one such team leader. Sure was disappointing that he didn't move to Superbike after Eslick's DSB championship. I don't know if he was even offered such a position. He sure did impress me with his management of the Geico Buell & and then Suzuki championship DSB teams. | ||
| Gschuette |
Again with the twisting of words Blake. I didn't compare the performance of the street bike to the WSBK machine. I did say BMW has arguably the best street bike to build from. You know, the thing all WSBK machines are based on. Unlike your nascar example, Superbikes have to run many production based, non bespoke parts. | ||
| Trojan |
Put any serious superbike into the hands of a Yoshimura or Graves team and do you doubt they couldn't make it competitive? But how would these two teams stack up against the best WSB teams? Yoshimura have had a direct input into the WSb Suzuki team for around 3 years now and that is only just starting to show results of their labours (and that is more because they finally have a winning rider on top of the thing rather than any engineering or team improvements). Give a top WSb team a poor starting point for a race bike and it won't be competitive. Take a look at Althea and Alstare trying to make the Panigale a winner. Like wise give a second rate team a great bike and the result is the same...mid pack at best. EBR need to have all of these factors in the top 1% if they are to challenge any of the exisiting factory teams in WSB, because they are all excellent teams with excellent bikes and excellent riders. | ||
| Elvis |
Will EBR get lapped every race this season or will they be finishing in the top ten by the end of the season? I think it would be presumptuous to assume either outcome after 1 race in which their best rider broke his collar-bone before qualification. As a fan, I would hope for the latter, and I think top ten finishes are possible with a lot of hard work and improvement. If it's the former, the effort will have to be seriously re-thought, and changes will have to be made. But they still will have learned things they will need to know if they ever want to be competitive. But the bottom line is EBR will be more competitive in WSBK in 2015 if they race WSBK in 2014. Would anyone seriously propose that if the goal is eventual serious competition in WSBK that Geoff and Aaron should spend another year futzing around in AMA? With Pegram and West still in AMA (and with West putting in a respectable performance on the very fast Daytona track), they still have a presence in both series. If West can prove himself in the AMA this year, he could potentially take Yate's spot next year or they could look at riders with WSBK experience. I hope and expect May, Yates and the team will learn and progress throughout the season, but even with the possibility that they won't, I can't imagine looking back at the end of the seasen and saying: "Gee, if only May and Yates had stayed in AMA, we'd be in such a better spot right now." | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Blake: "Comparing the street bike performance as a measure of competitiveness in WSBK is REALLY silly, even more so for years past. The racing machine are far removed from any streetbike....." I totally agree Blake and is there any doubt in anybodies mind that EBR's new 1190RX version is not a world class street bike and will sell well no matter what they do in WSB. Just competing is enough to spark much interest. | ||
| Blake |
So the WSB team was also grossly over-filling their EBR machines with oil... From www.roadracetalk.com/: http://www.roadracetalk.com/too-much-oil-for-ebr-a t-daytona/#comments Actually (overfilled oil) is exactly a chunk of why the (EBR 1190RX) WSBK were down on speed. Not that getting this power back will get us all the way there, but it will help. Thanks to Erik for giving us the straight info and to www.roadracetalk.com for sharing it. Nice web site! Erik’s post above appeared in Linked-In group “The Motorcycle Road Racing Network – #1 Group For All Motorcycle Road Racing Series”. Note that the overfilling doesn't just hurt top speed, it likely diminishes high rpm engine performance no matter what gear the bike is in. The future looks brighter every day. Facts are wonderful things. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, >>> But how would these two teams stack up against the best WSB teams? Given their amazing record, how could anyone seriously question that? Ask Ben Spies; he'd surely know. But that of course won't stop you from grasping at straws to imagine otherwise. >>> Yoshimura have had a direct input into the WSb Suzuki team for around 3 years now and that is only just starting to show results of their labours (and that is more because they finally have a winning rider on top of the thing rather than any engineering or team improvements). LOL! Unbelievable. Your anti-American bias is once again showing for all to see. Apparently Yosh would need to make a couple telephone calls and the struggling Suzuki WSBK team show immediate results in order for you to respect their capability. Running a team is a heck of a lot more than advising or consulting. The WSBK rules and machines are quite different. How would Yosh have any keen insight into improving them? | ||
| Rodrob |
This too much oil info is very interesting to someone who actually races an 1190RS, like me. The story that I had heard (I don't remember where) is the RSR racing had discovered that the bike was pumping the sump dry on the long, high speed Daytona banking and that was the source of bearing failure, so they determined that more oil was needed in that environment. Now, obviously, the veracity of that story is in question and I can't say that the amount of oil that was used in Pegram's bike exceeded what RSR used, but I will certainly be trying to nail down what the optimum oil level should be for racing. I typically keep the oil at the top mark of the sight glass, with the engine hot. Now I wonder if that is too much. | ||
| Blake |
How could it run dry? Where would the oil hide? I could imagine some issue with the oiling system, cavitation or something hindering proper flow, but not the sump running dry. There's no place for the oil to hide, is there? | ||
| Trojan |
LOL! Unbelievable. Your anti-American bias is once again showing for all to see. How am I showing any Anti American bias? Yoshimura have been building and developing the Suzuki WSb engines for t least 2 years now and are only just starting to show some decent results to show for it. If that isn't a direct input into WSb team then I don't know what is. It is certainly a lot more than a couple of phone calls (actually the speed of this years bike is more down to new advanced electronics strategies than engineering this season). I only asked how they would stack up against the leading WSB teams, not that they couldn't do it (which still remains to be seen). Graves Yamaha are a big fish in AMA racing, but in WSb they would be a small privateer team in comparison with the resources of Ducati, Kawasaki,Aprilia etc. Would they get direct factory support from yamaha? doubtful given Yamahas reluctance to run a team in WSB at the moment. I'm sure the argument would be true for any domestic team )whether BSB,AMA,CEV or DTM) trying to break into WSb (Crescent Suzuki are a good example) and nobody is going to arrive and suddenly run at the front without a few seasons to build up to it. | ||
| Hughlysses |
How could it run dry? Where would the oil hide? I could imagine some issue with the oiling system, cavitation or something hindering proper flow, but not the sump running dry. There's no place for the oil to hide, is there? I'd imagine the oil could wind up accumulating in the crankcase under certain circumstances. If windage is bad, it could be flung away from the pickup so that the scavenging pump can't pump it back to the reservoir. By adding extra oil, I suppose you're just letting the lubrication system run longer before it runs out of oil in the reservoir. I.E.- this approach might work for a road course with high speeds because periodically the engine RPM's would drop, hopefully allowing the oil to make it back to the reservoir. For something like a Bonneville engine, this approach would just delay the inevitable. | ||
| Court |
We should ask the Malaysians where it went ? |
