| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
Maybe it becomes a wet sump after adding an extra quart of oil.  Mistakes like this are always easy to spot in hindsight by armchair quarterbacks (myself included). Maybe Gschuette will publish his expert plan to add 40 HP and win against inline motors that have a 2x the swept length advantage, but only a 20% displacement disadvantage. He makes it sound so easy. | ||
| Bads1 |
Why did the engines let go for the Race Craft bikes last year?? | ||
| Riohondohank |
Dustin's bikes let go the most. It was caused by over reving. A rev limiter is of no use when downshifting at too high of speed. | ||
| Wymaen |
Oh, Reepicheep  | ||
| Gschuette |
I'm not saying I have an expert plan for EBR but I am giving EBR engineers credit here for making a quality bike.This isn't 1974 and the crew chief should know better. We have high quality pistons skirts, rings, cylinders, platings, and synthetic oils. Adding an extra quart is stupid and I do believe I singled out Larry's crew chief. That's who this rests on. Keep painting my comments with that broad brush guys. | ||
| M2typhoon |
"I'd imagine one quart extra would be enough to overload the reservoir and prevent all the oil from being scavenged from the crankcases." True. All it was doing was loading the crank with oil and slinging it around without being brought back to the reservoir at high rpm which is all the time at Daytona. Could have been worse.. how about no oil.. seen it happen! | ||
| Reepicheep |
I know a lot about motorcycles and motorcycle motors, and a lot about engineering. I have *no* idea about what kind of voodoo it takes to make a motorcycle engine hold together for the Daytona 200. I do know it's voodoo though, that race has a huge appetite for eating otherwise great motors. Engines running for extended intervals under very high RPM and power levels absolutely *will* consume oil much faster than normal.  That is a KLR-250 head. That poor little bike. I bought it in a bucket, rebuilt it to a solid runner, and put a couple of years off road and running around town. Never burned a drop of oil. Then I took it NC, and did the Deals Gap / Cherohola triangle. What fun... I did deals gap driving big powerful sportbikes nuts... I would just sit up like a fat dork on a dirt bike sitting pretty much upright pacing them exactly while they did their ricky racer thing dragging knees (unnecessarily). Then I did the Cherohola skyway, first on the gravel trail that parallels it (did you know there was such a thing? Quite a nice ride on a dual sport). Coming back, I was too far away too late in the day and bad storms were coming. I had that poor KLR-250 throttle pinned for about an hour solid climbing up and down mountains. Then I saw the temperature gauge start to climb. Then the KLR logo popped off the side of the engine. Then it died with ugly noises... The motor that hadn't burned a drop of oil in two years went through every last drop (full when checked in the morning) in less than a day of riding. More than likely, it went through it in that last hour. Thinking back on it now, if I had overfilled that KLR with a quart of oil, it likely would have survived that day. So based on my very limited experience with motorcycles operating at their limits, oil consumption problems do appear suddenly and unexpectedly and do threaten catastrophic engine failure. So I personally would be extremely hesitant to call a professional and experienced mechanic neither "best or brightest" because they were trying to stack the odds for finishing a notoriously difficult race with a still running motor. (Message edited by reepicheep on March 18, 2014) | ||
| Ljm |
Certainly speaks to the need for us folks out here to check more often and not just assume it is good because it shouldn't have burned any. | ||
| Fast1075 |
Ouch Reep! I have to keep a close eye on the oil level in the baby ninja. A couple of hundred miles at 12K chasing my buddies on liter bikes will consume a bit of oil. I will say the EBR must be tough. If you run a lot of wet sump engines overfilled, you will foam the oil so bad the engine starves and seizes. 20 HP is a sizeable windage loss. And they have some really high quality valves in them now, to bend rather than break. Ti is notorious for catastrophic failure. (at least in the dragbike engines I worked with). (A pure assume they are Ti). | ||
| Court |
I love these things. When someone accuse a "smart person" of doing something stupid, I just neither the accuser or the accused. I'm old. That, and 46 years of construction experience, have provided me with the gift of knowing, when I see that combination, that I lack facts. I think back to the number of "obvious" things, over the years, I've seen folks pull the trigger of judgement on too quickly. The M2 Cyclone Tach Kit. The trunk light in the Ford Crown Victoria (which cost over $10,000,000 JUST to find the problem) and so forth. In my own world, I think back to the things I did with explosives (DuPont 80% Hy-Drive dynamite and , Tovex and NyPak binaries) that **should** have worked and . . . well, didn't. EBR has some of the best and brightest engineers in the world. There's a reason that companies like Triumph came recruiting for their new CEO when Buell was disastrously dissipated. Racing is the ultimate confluence of skill, experience, luck and chance. Going with the "sure bet" nearly never wins. Fate rewards a ride on the razor's edge. When I read something insinuating that a Crew Chief at the Daytona 200 is "stupid" I know that, somewhere in the world. someone has yet to receive the gifts experience has bestowed upon me. I'm bettering the Crew Chief is brilliant and had what, at the time and under the conditions, was a stellar reason for the decision. I'm nothing more than a curious construction worker. But . . there's an element of me that recalls all the days when folks laughed at the very thought of EBR being in the Daytona 200 much less in WSBK. Ergo. . . . . I'm about as proud as I can be of all The Elves. I'm eager to see if we hear more about this and I'm thrilled about having EBR represented so capably by the likes of Cory West and Larry Pegram. Court | ||
| Gschuette |
It is so hard for me to pick up on just who the undertones of these posts are directed towards. First of all, Superbikes didn't run the 200. They ran the regular sprints. I didn't say anything bad about the EBR engineers, just a crew chief. If I were a race team manager and I thought my bike needed an extra quart to make it through a standard length Superbike race in 2014 I'd start to question the reason our team is allied with the manufacturer of choice. Obviously the EBR did not need the extra quart. So stop trying to take that and twist it into me saying something negative about the EBR because I'm not. I'm super happy you're a construction worker court. You know, I don't think you've ever mentioned that on BadWeb. | ||
| Manxboy |
Larry's crew chief has been a good friend of mine for over 20 years and is an extremely intelligent guy. You can't be a crew Chief for so many years without extremely good knowledge and skills. He is the same guy that built the Ducati that beat Mat Mladin at Road America a few years ago. To insinuate that he is not very smart without knowing all the facts is very wrong. This direct quote from EBR on Facebook may go to some lengths of explaining why extra oil was added: Erik Buell Racing Just a mistake. They have little experience with the bike and got some bad advice. These guys are only rookies on the EBR bikes and will learn fast. It would appear from this that he was given bad advice from someone. We all make mistakes from time to time. I can only assume Dave trusted the source of this suggestion to run extra oil, and I can only assume he will be unlikely to trust this source in the future. Lets not jump to conclusions on somebody's intelligence levels until we know all the facts. Pat Mooney. | ||
| Mog |
Court, your comment about the attendance not boding well for future race coverage (if I have couched that correctly) is spot on. I attended the Daytona debut of the 1125R in 2009(?) and watched in horror as the bike pulled into the pit for a literal splash of fuel and about to finish the race in the top 5.... when it caught fire, damn. Even in that heyday the grandstands were less than ten percent full. Our son and I eyeballed about 10 people in the grandstands on Friday and about 80 on Saturday. The infield was well populated and seemed the place to be for the first two turns or so. From an attendance standpoint it was depressing as sin. What made it was the efforts of Larry, Cory, the teams and great competitors. I hope you got to see the short videos I posted on You Tube. Especially the Fan Walk in the pit. Larry and Cory were great with the fans. I was embarrassed for the Fan Walk in the pit for KTM's booth. If some folks showed up it was a bare few. Chris Fillmore's drive on the KTM was superb and proves that a twin can hold sixth in SBK. Our son liked seeing his first AMA Pro race and is most willing to attend again. The whole ground game was handled well for the spectators but the promotion of the races is terrible. I am glad I drove 500 miles to see it again but help is definitely needed to preserve such a great set of events. | ||
| Blake |
Would someone please also inform the WSBK team about proper amount of oil to be used? | ||
| Hughlysses |
Would someone please also inform the WSBK team about proper amount of oil to be used? That's exactly what I was thinking. | ||
| Reepicheep |
To people who have never had to coordinate some kind of massive complicated effort and overcome huge challenges, every mistake will look obvious and easily preventable in hindsight. People that have faced these kinds of challenges look at things like this in hindsight and say "Well that's the one that snuck through this time" and proceed to build systems and controls to prevent it and anything like it from happening again, then look to see if the mistake created any new opportunities, and get ready to take the next swing at the pinata with the full knowledge that it will reveal the next thing they have to fix. At some point on that road, you go from losing to winning, but you are always discovering your next stupid mistake, and figuring out how to make that mistake impossible to repeat. Like Court, the older I get, the less inclined I am to call anyone stupid. | ||
| Riohondohank |
As one that has run a couple of privateer efforts at racetracks all over the country, I know for a fact that at Daytona, Murphy's law reigns supreme. | ||
| Bads1 |
Durability is tested on all makes. Next year EBR will be tested for 200 miles | ||
| Coolice |
Daytona is Daytona. I've seen stuff happen there that just doesn't happen anywhere else. And when you make it to the podium or just finish, it's an accomplishment. Just ask a few racers that have been running the 200 for years. | ||
| Court |
>>>Like Court, the older I get, the less inclined I am to call anyone stupid. i'm less inclined to do a number of things that impulse may have drawn me to in years gone by. One of the great Philosophers of our time. . . . Mr. Jimi Hendrix . . once said "Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens". I continue . . . in my sunset years . . . to find proof of that. In the last year or so I set forth, not entirely of my own volition, on a bit of a personal journey that found me as sort of a hermit for better than a year. During this time I traveled a great deal and tried to find some of the most unusual and out of the way places. When I got there . . . I'd listen. I had a lot to learn. On one such occasion . . . . . I'd had a nice fish dinner in a remote restaurant and wandered down the road to a hidden away bed and breakfast. They'd set me a note that my paperwork would be taped on a piece of furniture when I arrived. When I wandered in, about 11:00pm, I saw the envelope, bearing my name, taped to the furniture in the majestic hallway. Just as I grabbed it and elderly man wandered out, greeted me and sent me up the stairs saying "we'll visit in the morning". When I woke, I wandered downstairs to find the grand dining room with only 2 places set at the table. As I poured a cup of coffee and sat down the elderly man wandered through a door, sat down across from me and asked me if I minded if he joined me for breakfast. I was obviously the only guest in the place and welcomed the company. We began to visit and soon he was off on an amazing tale . . . in less self indulgent words . . . telling me he was essentially a genius inventor, had discovered the original chip that the IBM PC was based on . . and did so with some old parts from one of his wife's appliances. He told stories of tinkering, asking questions, changing and the constant pursuit of things. The story, as I sat quietly for 2 hours, was amazing. Needless to say . . . the moment I left I wasted no time googling the old man's name. Sure enough. He was not only everything he said, he was much more. He was, as a young engineer, one of those folks that IBM had committed to pay a 10% bonus for anything they could save. When he saved the company the first $300,000,000 they, perhaps in an effort to save writing the $30,000,000 check made him the youngest, and one of the earliest, IBM Fellows. In those 2 hours of listening . . . . I was reminded just how amazing this world and this life is. I've just been invited to give a 25 minute speech to a group of 5,000 in May . . . . I have to confess I've considered the idea of simply going and listening. I'd bet my money on the Crew Chief over the long haul. Court | ||
| Nobuell |
Hey Mike (Coolice), nice to see that you have at least enough time to relax a little and read the forums. The next ride coming up will be the Slimy Crud. Hopefully you can make it again this year. Tough crowd above. I bet very few have built race bikes or managed teams before. Success in good time! (Message edited by Nobuell on March 19, 2014) | ||
| Gschuette |
Here is where I am coming from, the customer side of Erik and EBR. I want to one day own an 1190. I'm not coming at this as some 13 year old who can't change the oil on a motorcycle. I have made motorcycles a major part of my life and I really want to see EBR succeed. I'm not claiming to know everything but this is an internet forum and I'm going to play the part of monday morning quarterback from time to time. I didn't say the crew chief was stupid but I did say the extra quart was stupid, no different than discussing an audible gone awry in the NFL. Is Bill Belichick stupid? No. Has he called a stupid play? Yes. So here is where I am pretty handy and that is with money. Since you all are so wise I am sure you have come across a few sayings like "slow and steady wins the race" "don't bite of more than you can chew", "you only get one chance to make a first impression",and in the case of the crew chief "past performance is no guarantee of future results" just ask Jeremy Burgess and Valentino. How many positive magazine review has a Buell or EBR labeled bike received in the past 15 years? How many 1190RXs have been sold so far? Would EBR be in WSBK without Hero money? Will that money still be there if the results don't improve? Neither EBR or Hero are Kawasaki or Honda or Yamaha. They sell motorcycles. There are no heavy equipment, cars, or musical instruments to subsidize motorcycle loss leaders for either of these two companies. Is EBR biting off more than they can chew? So far in this season it seems they just might have. I will reserve judgement until some magazines put out some tests on the RX. Juggling a WSBK team, getting some AMA teams up to speed, and successfully launching the RX seems like a lot to ask of a company as new as EBR in one calendar year. First impressions? The Soup has not been kind to the EBRs in race trim and many track day/superbike riders get their news there. Various track related forums and Facebook pages I've seen have been similarly harsh on EBR. Since the RX is competing with the HP4, Panigale, RSV4 Factory, CBR SP, etc. for buyers, the way it behaves on the track in the hands of professionals can leave quite an impression. I hope for EBR's sake the media is kind to the RX and it really blows the other bikes off the road. They need it because right now the affluent track day rider is probably not chomping at the bit to get on an 1190. Slow and steady. Lets take a case study from WSBK and one from AMA. Josh Hayes gets to Yamaha and they keep trying to make him faster by dialing in more TC and telemetry tools, etc. They keep getting slower. So what do they do? They swallow their pride and let Josh ride the thing without aids and get the bike set up to his taste, then they slowly dial in the aids, they get one thing right and only then did they move to the next thing. The success of the Josh/Yamaha combo cannot be ignored. Now for WSBK. A company much more established than EBR called Ducati recently unveiled a radical new L twin super bike, the 1199. Instead of trying to take a brand new bike to the top super bike race series in the world, they did the opposite. They pulled out factory support in WSBK, raced the old 1198 for a season, and made sure the base street bike was up to snuff. For this decision they were rewarded with great reviews of the street bike (I find the bike to be quite ugly and wouldn't buy one but that's just me) and are starting to find the pace on the WSBK circuit. So back to the money. How many times did you see an EBR at either of the WSBK or AMA kickoff weekends? You guys talking about knowing people in racing or having been a privateer, how does the money workout? Who gets the cash? Call me crazy but it isn't the back markers. I want EBR to make it, I want to buy one of their bikes but fortunes are not made racing WSBK, they are spent. EBR isn't going to finance a WSBK team on RX sales, they need outside money like Hero and they need it to continue! The task is tall for EBR, they can't really pull out of WSBK because that would be some terrible publicity. I do not advocate them pulling out or want them to, but it would be wise to focus on launching the street bike and getting up to speed in They need to get a top 10 in WSBK before the season is out. If I were manager of the race effort I would have started in Superstock, especially considering the big rules changes coming to WSBK next year. Right now it seems like an expensive exercise in futility at the WSBK level. But that is a moot point now. They also need to make sure the RX launches well and if that means getting the press on some ringers, do it! Casey Stoner once said to Valentino that his "ambition outweighs your talent." Erik and co. are wildly ambitious and that's why I love their machines, but this is a wildly competitive moto marketplace and it doesn't survive on positive emotions and memory, it survives on results/money. If it thrived on the former, October 2009 would not be such a bitter memory for us Buell enthusiasts. So here is my wisdom from my time on earth, slow down, get it right and then take on the next task, don't try to conquer everything at once. | ||
| Bads1 |
They sell motorcycles. There are no heavy equipment, cars, or musical instruments to subsidize motorcycle loss leaders for either of these two companies. Peter Paul doesn't pay Mary. | ||
| Bads1 |
Instead of trying to take a brand new bike to the top super bike race series in the world No they tested waters in British Superbike if Memory serve. Also they had all there eggs in one basket at the time with MotoGP with a very heavy salary to Rossi. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Nobody makes money racing, the winners just loose money a little more slowly. Maybe people trying to choose between Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda, or Kawasaki might be swayed on their monday purchase by the sunday win. But that's just because those damn things are practically the same bike. Great at what it is, sure, but do we really need 4 versions of the damn thing? My belief is that you race for two main reasons: 1) To learn what breaks sooner so you can make better bikes. Most of what you learn will be irrelevant for your streetbike. The few gems that do transfer down will be priceless. 2) To get your name out there. Winning helps, but 80% of the battle is showing up and finishing races. This is why Hero is in it, and they are brilliant for seeing it. 3) Because it rocks. That's it. You race because it stirs up passion and energy in your company. Screw the budget, screw the stockholders, we are going to race. | ||
| Bads1 |
But that's just because those damn things are practically the same bike. Great at what it is, sure, but do we really need 4 versions of the damn thing? Sure about that?? | ||
| Nobuell |
You cannot buy a Ducati based GP bike, but they sure sell a lot of their V-twin technology. I believe that most people realize that a V- twin will never be the HP leader but racing develops the breed. Most of us purchased Buell's not becomes they were the fastest. There are many other considerations for street bikes. Having some exclusivity, something different, there are many things. When was the last time you were able to speak with Mr. Honda at the track? Last years Daytona, my wife and I had a 20 min. conversation with Mr. Buell. There was some race talk but it was mostly about the fun we have had with our Buells. I do not believe I would have made the same friends or had the adventures I have enjoyed on another brand. There is definitely more to sales than winning races. However, winning is nice too! | ||
| Gregtonn |
As I have said in the past, "You can't win if you don't play." This is not Erik Buell's first rodeo. G | ||
| Trojan |
Instead of trying to take a brand new bike to the top super bike race series in the world No they tested waters in British Superbike if Memory serve. Also they had all there eggs in one basket at the time with MotoGP with a very heavy salary to Rossi. Actually not quite true in either case. Ducati 'pulled' their factory team from WSBk but still put the same amount of effort into the 'privateer' team with alomost the same personnel. They also raced the 1199 in European Superstock (which runs alongside WSB) for a year with some good success befoe returning to WSB with the bike in Superbike trim (still with the 'privateer' Alstare team). The 1199 was a disaster in terms of race results, although that was as much to do with team organisation (or lack of) and injuries/bad luck as much as poor performance. Now the factory have taken the team back under their umbrella, although in fact it is still essentially a private team run by Feel racing, but with more factory involvement. There was a Ducati Panigale running in BSB during the first year, but it was very much a dealer team with a Ducati supplied rider. The bike was in Superstock trim and was woefully uncompetitive mainly due to BSB rules on electronics etc. The question of whether EBR is ready for WSb is interesting though. As the bike is not available yet outside the US it is a good advertising promotion for the company to show people their new products. The flip side is that if the biek continues to be lapped and is miles off the pace then it isn't a great advert for EBR or the 1190.If, aas keeps being suggested here. Hero are the worlds largets motorcycle manufacturer, then they should have the resources to run one of the best equipped and biggest budget WSB tema out there. This plainly isn't the case though as the team did zero testing and arrived in Australia very much on the back foot. I hope that by the time they reach Aragon we will see a much more professional outfit and a more competitive bike  | ||
| M2typhoon |
Trojan, Close, it was the European Superbike Championship with Harald Kitsch in 2011. |
