| Author | Message | ||
     Bads1 |
Look for the increased use of fuel injection and exhaust catalyzers as new,stricter federal streetbike emissions are phased in beginning in 2006,with a second in 2010.The forthcoming standards have already been adopted in Califonia,where new motorcycles may emit no more than 1.4 grams per kilometer traveled of hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxides (cut from from 5 grams),and 12 grams per kilometer of carbon monoxide(unchanged).Bike-makers who build 3000 machines per a year or who have fewer than 500 employees are exempt from the first-tier requirements until 2008. | ||
| Reepicheep |
It demonstrates how far ahead of the technology curve a long stroke aircooled pushrod V twin really is  | ||
| M1combat |
As I recall the XB's are already there. | ||
| Bads1 |
Maybe I'm wrong and not trying to start a arguement but the XB12 is good through 2008 emissions standards.Why??? Is it because they fall under the clause in that last sentence I posted above.What I posted above was something I copied word for word out of Cycle World Magazine.BUELL advertised that the new 12's emissions were good through 2008 as a somewhat marketing strategy but how is this so great if they were exempt anyway's. edited by bads1 on March 02, 2004 | ||
| Wyckedflesh |
I believe when asked, Erik said he did it because he was told that an aircooled bike couldn't meet the requirements. | ||
| Dynarider |
Also those are the "new" stricter standards. Do the XB's meet those even without the exemption? | ||
| Davegess |
Bads, I don't know about 500 employee's but they sure make more than 3000 bikes. I suspect they are close to 500 people when you ad in all the marketing folks. It probably would depend where you draw th e line between HD and Buell. My understanding from listening to Erik is that they meet the standard and are not exempt in any way. They pass without a catalyst because they have a very well design combustion chamber and air cooled engines warm up faster than liquid cooled engines. It pretty easy to pass the standard at operating temperature but impossible when cold. limiting cold running time helps the Buell a lot. | ||
| Bads1 |
Wycked I know what Erik said I have it on video from the 20th.But BUELL has less then 500 employees so they were they already exempt when they started building the 12??? | ||
| M1combat |
Yeah, I seem to remember that they are not exempt (probably because they are subsidiary of HD) and at LEAST meet the standards for 2008. Qualifier... "in stock form"  | ||
| Bads1 |
Davegess just trying to understand my first post.Which is something I just read out of a magazine this evening. | ||
| Dynarider |
Yeah, I seem to remember that they are not exempt (probably because they are subsidiary of HD) They are a separate company from HD tho. HD employees do not count against the Buell payroll. They pass without a catalyst because they have a very well design combustion chamber and air cooled engines warm up faster than liquid cooled engines. In stock form they also run lean, hence the race ecms. Helps the factory pass the emission regs. | ||
| Blake |
Dyna, I doubt very much that Buell is exempt from meeting the emissions standards. All stock vehicles run lean; that is one of the requirements for reduced emissions. Are you trying to imply that Buell is any different from any other manufacturer in that respect? The truth is that the Buell XB's have ZERO lean running issues. ZERO. In fact they have one of the very best EFI systems in the motorcycle market. | ||
| Opto |
The last 2 new bikes I bought from the factory have both had advanced ignition timing according to each's FM, a '96 Sportster and an XB12S. Is this a coincidence? I corrected the Sportster timing at home, dealer corrected the XB timing after I had to REQUEST that it be checked - i.e. they don't check what comes in from OS, they PRESUME it's set properly. Is this one way of lowering emissions? | ||
| Rocketman |
In fact they have one of the very best EFI systems in the motorcycle market. I'm curious Blake. How would you quantify that statement? Quality of components or quality of operation, or both? Rocket | ||
| Dynarider |
I doubt very much that Buell is exempt from meeting the emissions standards. But do we know that as a fact? Not that it really makes any difference either way. If Buell is able to get the exemption, good for them. And no Blake I am not implying that Buells run lean while other manufacturers bikes do not. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
god dang...who really cares. we ain't the lawyers, they meet the standards already. thats what erik was boasting about. They do it without catyletic convertors thats what all the hub bub was about. Man why can't we just ride our friggin bikes and be happy with that. I must be losing it...how do we get to talking about this stuff. Not a friggin one of us has any control over any of it. and what the hell does it matter that is 3 years away in bike years. sorry but this kinda shit is just starting to drive me nuts.......who friggin cares...ride your bike and be happy. if its cold outside bundle the hell up....cabin fever is at it height | ||
| M1combat |
Drink some decaf Brian  . As long as the discussion doesn't get heated to the point that someone walks away we all learn more. If you just want to ride and not learn, go ride. I am interested in the fact that my Buell runs lean. That sucks. The race ECM solves this problem I assume? If not, we need carburetors? | ||
| Mikej |
Just a curious question: can the stock ECM (or TPS or whatever it is) be reset to a not-so-lean condition? I assume but don't actually know that it should be able to be reset to compensate for different fuels in different regions of the country and the world, so I would assume the stock controller should be able to be reset or recalibrated for a less-lean condition. The 12S is starting to grow on me, but the fuel capacity and the reset deal are killing the thoughts, (and the wheelbase but that's just a personal thing). | ||
| Buckinfubba |
thats what I mean....everything you buy that has an engine runs lean....they don't mean lean to where the engine blows up but to meet tree hugger standards. this is the same talk thats happened before and in 3 or 4 weeks will show up again. It ain't buell its everything. I am not riled up. what I mean is if we are gonna worry about everything instead of just enjoying it what is the use. I am not fighting with you but what are we learning here besides the possibilty of a shred of real good info...to the ratio of not correct info. and sorry to tell you but the bikes with carbs includong honda , kawi and everything else run just as lean as FI bikes. yes its easier to jet a carb and cheaper but that is the facts. like I said not lean to the point of melting the motor. but yes leaner than what is advantageous for the best engine performance. It is not...I repeat, it is not just your buell...its your car and everything else that has an engine and has to meet epa standards. or I am just to stupid to know the difference. problem with these threads is they all go of in a tangent and nothing gets solved. then it archives and then somebody goes back and reads it and then wammo here we go again lets do it all over again. maybe I am just losing it.....but I don't think so | ||
| Blake |
M1, Your Buell does not run too lean. It runs perfectly well. Just ride and grin. Dyna misspoke. If you want to go racing, yes by all means use the race kit ECM. Dyna, "I am not implying that Buells run lean while other manufacturers bikes do not." I suppose then that you'll soon be cautioning us all about that a Buell's tires heat up during use, or that a Buell's exhaust pipes get so hot that they can burn you on contact, or that if you leave a Buell idling in an enclosed garage it could kill you. Wanna hear another conspiracy... It's been rumored that Buell is using special noise attenuating devices on their motorcycles in order to pass EPA noise emissions tests. Buell attempts to hide the covert devices underneath the engine, but they are detectable to the knowledgeable observer. Please, think before you type? Bubba beat me to it. Damn you Bubba. How can you type so fast after inhaling all those homocidal Buell emissions? edited by blake on March 03, 2004 | ||
| M1combat |
MikeJ - I'm no pro so someone please correct me if I'm wrong... The stock ECM is set to run at a certain A/F mixture. It will continually adjust itself to maintain that mixture in one mode. In the other mode as I recall it just does exactly what it's programmed to do but "I think" still modified by the change that the O2 sensor has decided it needs. Attempts have been made to run devices inline to fool the ECM about what the O2 sensor is picking up. I haven't heard of a modification that works. Theoretically Buell "could have" designed the A/F portion of the ECM to operate like the TPS and be resetable to whatever you want. If they did that though, there would be no need for the race ECM. I think that their "real race ECM" is FULLY programmable. Brian - I understand everything I own runs lean (in MY case only my EFI toys as I've fixed all the others). The reason I made the carb comment is because it's POSSIBLE to rejet them. I can't rejet my EFI. I can't even TELL it to try to run stoichiometric. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
heres what I am talking about. the TPS doesn't effect the fuel delivery. the TPS is the throttle postion sensor. the FI system is an open /closed loop system. when at Idle and at crusing it is in the closed loop which means it is reading combustion off the rear cyclinder thru the o2 sensor, it also is reading engine temp, intake air temp, and yes where the postion of the throttle is..ie 1/4, 1/2 3/4 throttle and other stuff. when in closed loop the ecm compensates for all kinds of changes and gets somany damn reading a second that it is always changing. when its in open loop it is a pre programmed delivery to the the engine ie wfo and in other spots. again it is not lean to the point of melting your engine. in fact it is not too lean. infact it is freaking superior to a carb. it just is not as easy to mess with as a carb. so you see you don't need to adjust it because it is adjusting it self almost all the time you are riding. quit worring about it, I swear it will be alright. so here we go again. and again I am not trying to be an asshole even tho it seems that way. | ||
| Blake |
Rocket, Comments/reviews by most all the moto rags and personal experience. The XB's DDFI is virtually flawless. Not many moto EFI systems meet that standard. | ||
| Buckinfubba |
M1 there ya go your on it now...beat me too it. but this is how things go out of control around here | ||
| Mikej |
So then could I add a fuel compressor to get more capacity into the thing????? I mean I see tanker trucks on the freeways around here hauling "compressed gas" all the time. Okay, I'm done, gonna go hide now before someone hangs me out to dry.  | ||
| Buckinfubba |
shut up ya goofy bastard  | ||
| Nevco1 |
Per Erik Buell in his presentation at the Buell 20th Banquet, the XB12's just missed passing CARB 2008 (California) and EPA 2010 (US Federal) test criteria by a very slim margin. Furthermore, he is extremely confident that the existing platform will meet the CARB 2008 standards with little change and that it is already being worked on. Again, this is the same information that was presented to the "Press" during the XB12 introduction at Road America last year in Buell's Official Press Release Kit. I seriously doubt that Buell will be exempt from the standards. If they are, by merit of low sales, I would suspect that HDI would rethink the validity of marketing the brand. | ||
| Daves |
Nev, Did you get my email yesterday? Just want to know what to do. Dave Iowa HD/Buell (Buell Cycle Center) | ||
| M1combat |
"when its in open loop it is a pre programmed delivery to the the engine ie wfo and in other spots. " This pre programmed delivery stuff... Is it still affected by the O2 sensor? If not, wouldn't it run rich at higher altitudes at WOT (or any time we get to open loop operation at higher alt.)? | ||
| Hootowl |
The map is probably altitude compensated. My understanding is that the only difference between open and closed loop is the use of the O2 sensor. The other sensors are still in use. |
