| Author | Message | ||
     Xb1125r |
eslick has to be banging his head for not staying with EBR even if it meant less pay. opportunities are greater then money, on the other hand Geoff has made all the right moves | ||
| Classax |
Blake, maybe you are not watching the same AMA racing I am but there are clearly tiers of talent with regard to race pace in the AMA. I don't think that if you stuck the lower tiers of guys on a WSBK spec bike that they would suddenly be markedly faster. Tier 1 Hayes Herin Hayeden Cardenas Tier 2 Eslick Young Filmore May Knapp Tier 3 Pegram Yates West Everyone else Huge respect to all these guys but the reality is having a faster bike would only move certain guys up a tier. The guys riding twins are at a disadvantage true but not so much so that it would suddenly be fighting for the top spot on an inline 4. The Top 4 guys is in AMA could likely run mid pack and 7.8.9.10 on a great bike in WSBK based on lap times at Laguna. Based on Yates' and May's times the EBR would bring home a distant 12 and 16th in WSBK unless they can find some more pace some where, which is miraculous considering where Buell/EBR was just a few years ago. GO EBR! | ||
| Trojan |
I have to agree, there are probably 3 or 4 AMA riders who could transfer to WSB and be in teh top 5-10 regularly on the right bike and the right team (of which there are not many capable of delivering a winning machine). You also have to consider that the team would have to get rid of their current rider to accomodate an AMA refugee, so they would have to be better than the existing rider. When you look at the4 top 5 or 6 WSb riders last year can you honestly tell me that the current batch of AMA superbike riders would be better? Roger Hayden isn't in the top tier in my opinion, although I think that Hayes, Herrin and Cardenas (along with Beach and Beaubier) are the most likely to succeed in WSB given the chance. Motorcycle racing in Europe is wildly more popular in Europe than in American in general, so there are more teams with more sponsorship thus more teams on par There are also a lot of riders in Europe that are having to pay to ride, or at least bring sponsorship to the team in order to get the ride. In the US riders are still too used to being paid large salaries by top teams, but the economic situation has changed all that over here. If you want to get a foot in the door in International competiton you have to be either extremely talented and/or bring some serious cash to your team. Josh Herrin and PJ Jacobsen have both managed to find teams that are willing to support them, but I would bet that they are not being paid much by the team and rely on personal sponsorship to earn any money at all. | ||
| Blake |
Somehow you've gone from "You have to remember that there is a big gulf in performance between most AMA riders and WSB riders" to "there are probably 3 or 4 AMA riders who could transfer to WSB and be in teh top 5-10 regularly on the right bike and the right team" The top ten AMA riders would fold very well into WSBK competition given equal team and machine support. Your imagined "big gulf in performance" is just baloney. Earlier you mentioned that "US riders have actually had a very lean time in WSB over recent years", but Matt, every time an American rider enters the series in a serious way, he ends up with a championship or at a minimum winning a bunch of races. There just haven't been any serious American entrants in WSBK since Ben Spies, and before that we had Colin Edwards, twice champion, and Ben Bostrom multiple race winner. Then a rookie comes over on a new bike, new team, new tracks and takes the rest of the WSBK field to school. Classax, Eslick beat Cardenas head to head in Daytona Sportbike, on the Buell and on the Suzuki. He's proved himself equal to or better than Cardenas. | ||
| Trojan |
"You have to remember that there is a big gulf in performance between most AMA riders and WSB riders" I still stand by that statement, and I also said that AMA lacks strength in depth. Just because the top 3 riders could POSSIBLY' do well in WSb doesn't mean that the AMA rider pool is that great in total or that AMA racing is in a healthy state, becaue it surely isn't. every time an American rider enters the series in a serious way, he ends up with a championship or at a minimum winning a bunch of races. Actually that isn't true, you just remember the ones that win. One of the Hayden brothers (can't remember which one)did some time with Pedercini Kawasaki and was miles off the pace. Jason DeSalvo also spent a couple of seasons trying to win over here. There have been other wild card rides but even then they have been by the very top AMA riders, so of course I would expect them to perform reasonably well. Spies, Bostrom and Edwards were all lucky enough to be employed by factory teams at the top of their game so were in the right place at the right time to exploit their talents. if you put the top 5 BSB riders in a decent WSB team they would probably do just as well or better to be honest, as would the top 5 German or Japanese Superbike riders, but that doesn ot refelct the health or strength of the relative national championships. The bottom line though is that until riders get into WSB we really don't know how they would do. Why are there no US riders in the series? because team managers obviously don't think they are good enough (otherwise they would be signed up already) to take a risk on or they don't bring money to the team. Josh Herrin, has made a very brave move to Moto2 (as have James Rispoli and PJ Jacobsen in BSB/WSS) and I hope they can open the door to more US talent coming over. | ||
| Classax |
Blake, I think Eslick is aggressive enough on an EBR to compete for top 10 and podiums in just about any superbike series. However the lap times this year at Laguna didn't reflect that, hence my ranking. I really hope he winds up on an RX, it suits his riding style and it would be good for him and EBR. Trojan, many American riders simply enjoy their off track lives too much to make the sacrifice for what right now is too little gain in Europe, not for lack of talent. Going to WSBK or Moto simply isn't as profitable as it used to be. More over scoring a decent ride outside a factory team is like hunting unicorn. They may have existed once hence the myth but to be honest no one has seen one in a while. History shows the best the USA has to offer is more than competitive against the rest of the world if given a level playing field. | ||
| Bads1 |
Do you think Eslick did well this season?? I can tell ya if Jordan stayed on board for 2014 he wouldn't be with them. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I think the reality here is America, like France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Japan, UK, and other nations, have equally as talented equally as fast riders. What presents the argument in this topic is the lack of a truly global race series where manufacturers and race series owners alike have failed over the decades to provide what race fans the world over want. With Ezpeleta and Dorna owning both WSBK and MotoGP, the fans deserve a huge amount more. Judging by the argument here, wouldn't it be great if we got that. A series that joined all of the big players where the rules for each nation were in some sort of alignment a world series could be borne out of such. Rocket in England | ||
| Blake |
>>>One of the Hayden brothers (can't remember which one)did some time with Pedercini Kawasaki and was miles off the pace. Jason DeSalvo also spent a couple of seasons trying to win over here. DeSalvo contested a couple of seasons??? Fiction. You're grasping at straws to support your racer bias. The crap teams and machines they had are not to be excused, unless it's Hodgeson never winning a race in AMA against all our inferior racers. Every time an American seriously contests the WSBK championship, he either wins the championship or a bunch of races. The complete schooling Ben Spies put on the entire WSBK field in his rookie year there, racing a totally new bike, on different brand tires, at tracks new to him was all anyone need see to understand the calibre of superbike racers in America. | ||
| Trojan |
The complete schooling Ben Spies This argument could go on for ever, despite the fact that Spies had the best team, best bike and everything else, he was still run close by Haga for the title. If you really want to trade statistics and look back to see who actually has had the most dominating season in WSB EVER, and really did 'school' the rest, then I'm afraid you would have to bow down to the much maligned Mr Neil Hodgson, who scored 475 out of a possible 600 points on his way to his WSB title (an 81.5% win record). Pretty much unmatched by anyone including multiple championship winner Carl Fogarty, who only managed a measly 75.3% record. Admittedly, Hodgson was on the best bike and the best team the year he won, but then so was Ben Spies  The argument over which current US/AMA riders would be able to compete at the front in WSb will never be answered unless they actually do it, so all the 'would've and should've' doesn't really get us anywhere. Every time an American seriously contests the WSBK championship, he either wins the championship or a bunch of races. You could use exactly the same argument for British, Italian, Spanish or Japanese riders. To seriously contest the championship usually infers that they are in with a chance of winning so are already on the best machinery. Over the last 20 years there have been very few US riders who have got to that point unfortunately. In fact other than Colin Edwards and ben Spies I can't think of any who have made a serious title bid unless we go right back to the early days of Scott Russell etc. | ||
| Trojan |
DeSalvo contested a couple of seasons??? Fiction. Jason raced in the UK in both 125 and Supersports in the early 2000's I believe, I can't remember the years but I'm sure I could find out | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
That R1 won everything everywhere that season. I regret turning the ride down now, seeing Spies won the title. I'd have won it too on that bike that year and I'm not that good either  Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
That R1 won everything everywhere that season. I regret turning the ride down now, seeing Spies won the title. I'd have won it too on that bike that year and I'm not that good either Precisely my point. Leon Camier dominated BSB same year on the R1o such an extent that they changed the rules the following year to stop one rider taking such a stranglehold on the series, and to ensure that spectators are given an exciting close race to watch. However, that isn't to say that all R1's are created equal.......Spies team mate Tom Sykes didn't have the same spec bike that Ben had, nor the team support that he enjoyed. Tom has since said that he felt like an outsider in the Yamaha garage and was basically given the cast offs that Spies didn't want or use. Yamaha gave Spies absolutely everything they possibly could to win that year and it would have been more of a surprise if he hadn't won. I know he was new to the series but he wasn't a rookie by any means and had plenty of Superbike experience to draw on. This is not to degarde what Spies achieved, as winning the WSB title is a great achievement in itself regardless of team. | ||
| Jaimec |
The current WSBK champ, Tom Sykes, was Spies team mate in WSBK. Same bike, same team. He was nowhere NEAR the front, yet now he's the champ, and last year he was the runner up (by a half a point). Sorry Matt, your argument doesn't hold water. | ||
| Crusty |
"When the Green Flag drops, the bullshit stops." It's the dead of Winter. | ||
| Court |
The cool part . . to me . . .is that a company that was 3 guys in a garage 4 years ago . . . IS IN IT. I suspect there are some surprises in store. | ||
| Trojan |
Very di{The current WSBK champ, Tom Sykes, was Spies team mate in WSBK. Same bike, same team.} You are wrong in that respect. Same colours and same garage only. Different spec bike and different team inside the garage, and very much the 'poor relation' when it came to parts and support. Having said that, Tom finished 4th that year I think despite suffering from a huge crash in France which meant he missed a couple of rounds. Ordinarily that would have been a great rookie result and he would have kept his place for the following year. Unfortunately Tom was dropped by Yamaha for the following season, which he nows thinks is the best thing that could have happened to him. Also compared to Spies at that time, Tom was relatively inexperienced on a Superbike when he was at Yamaha. He now has more experience and is on a bike that and a team that suits him much better. The result is that he is pretty much unbeatable and was lapping Jerez less than 1 tenth of a second slower than Jorge Lorenzo on a MotoGP bike. he was very ulucky to have lost by half a point last year and dominated the series this year (on a bike they still say is being developed further and has more to give!) I suspect that he would beat Spies now as easily as he regularly beats everyone else in WSB, including he MotoGP refugees, but we shall never know unfortunately. What is for sure is that the prospecdts of any new riders turning up next year (from whatever direction they come from) and beating Sykes are pretty slim. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Spies was the best rider to race in WSBK...the last 20 years ! ! Even compared to the greats as Bayliss, Fogarty , etc I wish Spies stayed in WSBK ! | ||
| Trojan |
Spies was the best rider to race in WSBK...the last 20 years ! ! Even compared to the greats as Bayliss, Fogarty , etc On the basis of? Win record? Percentage of wins per season? Most races won in career? Most points scored in a season? Most pole positions? On any of the measureable scales he actually isn't close to the top of the list. He did really well by winning the series in his first year because he came at the right time in his career, into the right team and at the right time in WSB history, so all his stars aligned. When you actually apply measurable criteria then he isn't the best superbike rider in any way other than in your opinion unfortunately. It is very difficult to compare riders from different eras or even different seasons, so it is a bit like saying Mike Hailwood would beat Marc Marquez. Everyone has an opinion but we will never know the correct answer. | ||
| Firstbuell |
sez Court, "The cool part . . to me . . .is that a company that was 3 guys in a garage 4 years ago . . . IS IN IT." this +100 | ||
| Trojan |
"The cool part . . to me . . .is that a company that was 3 guys in a garage 4 years ago . . . IS IN IT." I agree completely. | ||
| Classax |
The cool part . . to me . . .is that a company that was 3 guys in a garage 4 years ago . . . IS IN IT. I suspect there are some surprises in store. ^^^^This^^^^ I don't think its wise try to do comparisons across seasons or eras when the technological and fiscal playing fields aren't level. Tires, chassis set up, telemetry, factory support, number of practice laps, riding style all come into play. Without a spec tire, on spec setup bikes that the teams are not allowed modify beyond sag, rebound and compression for the riders you'll never have an apples to apples comparison. Even then one motor could be stronger than the next. Are there riders with more pace than others? Whether by skill or courage, or stupidity, absolutely yes and no one country has a lock on them. The AMA and WSBK are moving towards similar rule specs, if they can survive. Would I like to see a rider with more(skill, courage or stupididty)pace on the Prescription than May or Yates, sure but the reality is AMERICA is sending a legit SUPERBIKE to the big show! | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I take nothing away from EBR's 3 men starting basis, but c'mon. It was a hell of a lot more than three men. There was a fully developed race bike bouncing off the Buell, and a wealth of everything imaginable to go with it. It's not like 3 unknowns starting from scratch and hey presto here comes WSBK four years down the line. Perspective. Perspective. Rocket in England | ||
| Vagelis46 |
Of course it is just my personal opinion that Spies is the best WSBK rider of the last 20 years .... | ||
| Crusty |
There are many others who share that opinion. | ||
| Court |
>>>It was a hell of a lot more than three men. Actually . . that's inaccurate. I base my statement not on opinion and passion, but on payroll records. Michael Richter, John Fox and Kemp Asbeck . . . if you need particulars. There were HUGE risks after the HD gutting and no they did NOT have a fully developed race bike. Harley-Davidson did and would have loved for the folks at EBR to have touched anything and opened themselves up to legal evisceration. There are, in fact, (and this will come out in the next book) a couple things the HD did NOT know about that were borderline . . . "maybe we could use it without starting over and they'd not notice". Those thoughts were dismissed for two reasons. One was the fact that one loose lipped person could sink the entire dream. The other was stupid . . . nearly as stupid as the reason the 1995 S2 didn't make it to California . . but, hey, it was an understandable mistake. The start up of EBR was, in many ways, MUCH more challenging that Buell Motor Company in the mid 80's. Perhaps the best story is going to be the real estate . . . but, that'll have to wait until the next time I hit the UK and you've a pint or two of priming . . . no sane person would believe it . . . particularly the folks at HD who will some day learn about it. . . . . maybe. | ||
| Court |
By the way . . . nothing about that post should be construed as fact . . . it's the internet and that's entirely just a wild ass guess on my part . . . in case someone accidentally reads it and believes it. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Court, I do apologise. I was alluding to the 'similarities' in design and architecture of the 1125 Buell racer and the EBR racer. Perhaps I wrongly assumed there are a few if not many parts shared on both bikes? Then of course, I was looking at EBR as a whole, and not just the three persons you cited. I shall have pints ready. I am reminded of the time I visited NY and found myself in Chumleys. A place I know you came to frequent when fellow Buellers visited I believe. Well, I had a sherry and a bite with friends in a wonderful place in Charing Cross, London, a few months ago. Kind of reminded me of Chumleys. Great day by the way. Later saw The Who perform their last Quadrophenia gig at Wembley Arena, VIP of course Absolutely fantastic gig! Ah yes, the place in Charing Cross. http://www.gordonswinebar.com/default.php steeped in history. Once home to Samuel Pepys 1680. Much later Rudyard Kipling too. See you there for the next installment of Buell history! Rocket in England | ||
| Classax |
To me the fact that HD is so hell bent on keeping Buell dead, is a blessing in disguise in that EBR had to return to the drawing board and improve just about every area of the bikes. The RS is SMOKING and I have no doubts the RX will be as good or better especially with two years of racing development having driven the design. | ||
| Court |
>>>>To me the fact that HD is so hell bent on keeping Buell dead, is a blessing in disguise in that EBR had to return to the drawing board and improve just about every area of the bikes. Bingo ! HD's resolve to not simply close Buell but to put a lid on that type or entrepreneurial sprit served only to strengthen EBR. There isn't a neuron of hard feelings by the folks at EBR . . . the gauntlet was tossed, collected and dealt with. Folks were smart enough not to engage in any legal wrangling with folks who hire novice attorneys, looking to make a name, by the dozen. The marching mantra became . . . ."if you had to start from scratch, unconstrained and produce the best, most producible, engineering product you could . . . what would you do?" Rare today. . . very rare. Keen minds, unclouded by the various ego trips and power plays, saw the potential. HERO is an excellent example. They'd booted Honda and needed someone who could produce engineering products better than they, at the time, could . . . better in fact, they wanted, than anyone in the world. The Indians are industrious, educated, dedicated and keen collaborators. Some of you met some of the Indian personnel from HERO who came onboard to augment the racing effort. These guys are smart and work their asses off. This is good news. EBR, for several years, was producing the heck out of stuff . . . it's unfortunate that folks, gathered round and myopically focused on the motorcycle shipping door, were unable to see what was happening. A few keen folks sent me notes . . . ."you can't amass this much high power engineering talent and NOT be building something". What seemed obvious to some went unnoticed by others. In the interim, the design of the new EBR products got the gift of time . . . .time to, in all candor, get it right . . not only the motorcycles, that's the easy part, but the entire business model and customer experience. The process wasn't perfect, but it, to date, is the best in the history of the industry. I'm looking forward to the next couple years. While I'm unable to participate as much as I used to . . . I remain one of The Elves ( a term I nearly got fired by HD for using) biggest cheerleaders. The most dedicated, in fact the best of the best, are gathered in East Troy and working long hours. This is going to be fun. |
