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Rickpxb12scgr
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 26, 2013 - 09:49 pm: | 
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New to the site.
I have an 08 XB12SCGR with 23K.
Have had her for over a year after purchasing her from a dealer in NH for a steal.
I live at 5200' above sea level just north of Bishop CA on the east side of Sierra in eastern California. Periodically I will ride up to 10K' in less than 12 miles and then back down to 5200'. This time of the year, Air Temps vary from 10degs F in the morning when I ride her the 14 miles flat out to work to well over 65F in the afternoon when I come home. The EV is dismantled and I have a first gen Drummer. I gutted out the airbox (retained the cover plate so as to maintain the IAT in position) this past summer and slapped on a UNI Clamp On directly to intake manifold (throttle body) in order to get more air in during the hot summer months where day time air temps of well over 105degf mid day are the norm. Rear AFV & EGO Cor% maintained itself pretty steady around 86% during those 3-4 months.
Since this summer I have replaced both the IAT (due to multible high and low voltage codes) and the ETS per Al at American Sport Bike's recommendation due to numerous issues I was having.
Since doing so, she ran flawlessly for over 2 months of daily riding and hard fast speed runs. Sometimes at top end speed runs for over 4-5 miles as I have the optimum road home to do so.
Here is my dilemma.
The past 2 weeks or so, my AFV has been drooping down to below 70% to around 66% after She runs like a bat outta hell at top end rpms of 6-7K (got her up to just over 140mph on the run home this afternoon). When and after these fast runs, and I get home and shut her off then try to restart, she bogs at idle terribly. After she cools she starts up fine and idles normally. TPS reset does nothing.
This afternoon, she did it again after I got home and my top out run. Hooked her up to the ECMSPY mono2 saw the AFV was at 66% so I immediately reset the AFV to 100 and then restarted her without much cool down. BAM, perfect TPS 3.7-4.2 degs and voltage and Idle RPM were flawless @ a constant 1100-1150 RPM's.
I did not have this issue last Winter during the same air temp and riding conditions.
Can anyone out there that lives at altitude please give me possible reasons this extreme AFV drooping is suddenly occurring.
Sorry for the long rant....
Thanks!!!
(Message edited by RickPXB12SCGR on November 26, 2013) |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 08:39 am: |
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Perhaps apples and oranges, given your XB, but I had a somewhat similar situation with my X-1. After riding for a while, the engine would have less snappy throttle response, and a soft miss at steady throttle. The AFV would be in the low 80's. Reset the AFV to 100, and all was well for a while, then the AFV would drop again.
I discovered that the rear fuel injector was 'drooling' a bit, not really leaking. That caused the rear cyl to run rich, which caused the 02 sensor to 'see' that and lean out the mixture.
Since your problem came on suddenly, I would look at the rear injector and confirm proper operation and clean electrical connections. Last winters good operations means (to me) that altitude is not the issue.
Hope this helps, Dave |
Rickpxb12scgr
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 09:28 am: |
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Thanks Dave.
Sounds like an obvious step to check out.
Just looked it up in the Manual and looks like another one of them "holy shet how am gonna get to this" operation.
Will give it a go over the weekend.
Did you have to replace the injector or just clean it out good and then return it to situ?
(Message edited by RickPXB12SCGR on November 27, 2013) |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 27, 2013 - 12:11 pm: |
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Summarizing my post, something somewhere is most likely causing the ECU to compensate for a perceived rich mixture. Rear fuel injector is a possibility, as is an 02 sensor that is going out of calibration w/o showing a fail code.
As to the injector, you need to take the airbox and air filter cover off, so you can look into the throttle body. Ign on, then stop/run switch on for 2 sec, then off for 2 sec. Repeat 5 times. Open the throttle wide open and look in the throttle body for signs of fuel. The X-1 service manual says hold throttle wide open; the XB manual doesn't specify. Might try it both ways. In the case of my tuber, there was a wet stain about the size of a quarter around the rear injector.
The service manual is your friend. I believe you can get the injectors out by removing the airbox base. Should that be necessary.
Hope this helps, Dave |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Thursday, November 28, 2013 - 05:35 pm: |
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Not having a replacement injector at hand, and not knowing a reputable inspection/repair facility nearby, I just swapped the injectors front for rear while I ordered new ones. I figure a slight rich mixture in the front cyl would be OK until the new ones arrived.
Can't do that with the XB. The injectors are dedicated front and rear. On my X-1 they are identical.
Dave |
Rickpxb12scgr
| | Posted on Friday, November 29, 2013 - 10:17 pm: |
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Cleaned out the entire inside of the Throttle Body with PJ1 % Seafoam Carb/Intake Cleaner spray and a small wire brush. It was filthy to say the least. I could bend the brush enough so as to get to both injector nozzle points in the body.
I was running in high 50's for the Rear Fuel and high 60's for the Front Fuel on ECMSPY prior to cleaning. Afterwards, the Front was in the high 70's and Rear in low 70's. So it definitely made a difference.
Seams to be running better so will see.
As far as replacing the Injector, I will have to rotate the engine in order to get to the bottom left hand screw on the Fuel Rail.
Hopefully my super deep cleaning will do the trick. I will report back in a week.
Thanks for all the input DAVE. |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 09:29 am: |
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You are very welcome. Glad to be of some help. Seems things are moving in the right direction.
Might do to run 2-3 tanks of Seafoam treated fuel through it and see what happens.
Sec 4-14 of the service manual describes how to remove the throttle body, without rotating the engine. May be six of one and half a dozen of the other.
If the inside of the airbox is very wet with oil residue, that may be why the inside of the manifold was dirty. Venting the crankcase to a catch can would be advised. Al at American Sport Bike has a really nice one that looks factory; I have one on my '08 XB-TT. Works well.
Finally, the performance you are reporting would suggest otherwise, but are you sure the aftermarket air filter you have is not collapsing on itself at high RPM?
Dave |
Rickpxb12scgr
| | Posted on Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 10:21 am: |
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The Airbox was dry as a bone. I implemented the Venting mod just after I got the rig.
Have started the Seafoam Throttle body cleaning process with both the fuel additive and their Decarbon Spray System after I initially cleaned out the inside of the body with the PJ1 Carb Cleaner and small very stiff wire brush.
The UNI filter I installed is specifically designed for big bore V-Twins and reinforced internally with a cylinder wire case.
On a side surprising note, I went ahead and disconnected the ECM to give it a thorough inspection and I found a sticky attached to the bottom of the body noting "BAD" with an arrow pointing to the output plug.
Sooooooooo! I went ahead and purchased an almost new ECM I found on EBAY that was pulled from an 08 XB12 same part # and was manu'd 112 after the one on my rig for only $100. It has 1900 miles on it and the seller is guaranteeing it. He pulled it off his when he installed an EBR ECM. We shall see if that in fact is the primary foundation of this strange issue.
The saga continues.... |
Akbuell
| | Posted on Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 12:32 pm: |
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Ahhh ! Very interesting discovery. Especially if the arrow pointed to the black plug. 'Corrupted' information to/from the injector would certainly cause issues ....
Dave |
Rickpxb12scgr
| | Posted on Saturday, November 30, 2013 - 09:09 pm: |
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Well Well Well!!!!
SO this afternoon I was doing more research on this site and then came upon this little hidden jewel....
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?142838/634269
Guess what???
Found the entire orifice and motor to be completely covered with carbon and other residues. Cleaned both thoroughly and remounted the IAC unit. Fired up the rig and idle was peeeeeeeeeeeeeerfect and TPS was maintaining a normal 3.9 - 4.1 degs.
Just another item in the system that gets missed completely that can help them little gremlins cause havoc. Any sort of periodic maint for this very important part is NOT even in the manual.
Will report later when I get some miles on her.
(Message edited by RickPXB12SCGR on November 30, 2013)
(Message edited by RickPXB12SCGR on December 01, 2013) |
Rickpxb12scgr
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 09:28 am: |
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Appears that the deep cleaning of the IAC Unit may have remedied the idle issue I began to have.
The deep cleaning of the Throttle Body has brought up the AFV some 20-25% from the low to mid 60's to a consistent 75ish.
I amazed that neither of the two functions I did are in the maintenance schedule. Especially the IAT inspection and cleaning.
We shall see if the corrections I have made will last.
****Thanks to sites as this one, we can all enjoy a better ride and not have to pay out the ass for someone else to fix our Babies for us.****
Hope ya'll had a pleasant and safe T-Bone Day!!
(Message edited by RickPXB12SCGR on December 02, 2013) |
Rickpxb12scgr
| | Posted on Monday, December 02, 2013 - 05:23 pm: |
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AFV has returned to normal values of 86% and the fuel input % returned to the high 70's on the Rear Injector. It has pretty much married up to the Front Injector.
SO, it seriously appears that cleaning the two made a world of difference.
Something to throw into the Troubleshooting matrix when others are having idle and AFV issues. |
Rickpxb12scgr
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2014 - 08:01 pm: |
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UPDATE!
Appears that between the NEW Injectors, thorough cleaning of the Throttle Body and a NEW TPS Sensor, the issue has been completely resolved.
After three days of hard riding of over 140 miles, the numbers on SPY are ALL NORMAL and the IDLE is balanced and stable.
Thanks for all your help (DAVE)and inputs. |
Mesozoic
| | Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2014 - 08:52 pm: |
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I installed a baro sensor on my '08 XB12 since I have a similar altitude situation (reside at 2500 ft, local runs up to 9500 ft within 20 miles). The baro pressure compensation really tightened up how much the AFV fluctuates with altitude and startup is improved as well. Not a necessary mod at all, but the pins on the ECM are available and enabling the baro feature is easy. |
Rickpxb12scgr
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2014 - 05:39 pm: |
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Here is an update.
I since went ahead and replaced the ECM with an EBR XB12 08> Drummer 1 Programmed ECM. I have just passed 500 miles on it and the bike is running flawlessly.
My AFV has been no lower than 90% (during ambient air temps at 103-105F) and is now avging at around 95% which for the altitude I live at, 5200' MSL, is according to Dennis at EBR, "Perfecto" and can't get any better than that.
Had the old ECM checked out by the HD guys down south and they found it to be "Locked up" with the installed/programmed data.
So, appears the ECM was faulty at best and the EBR ECM is the ticket.
Thanks to Dennis at EBR and all the folks there for all their TSing and assistance.
BUELL's kick ass. Especially my very special 08 XB12SCGR.
(Message edited by RickPXB12SCGR on August 28, 2014) |
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Drooping AFV to 66%