| Author | Message | ||
     T_man |
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/2014_ ktm_1290_super_duke_r_first_ride/ Holy sweet geezus - the gauntlet has been THROWN DOWN. Not to mention the big bore liquid cooled Il'Monstro that has been spied slinking around town. I am rooting for Erik's new 'fighter but man did he ever pick a tough year to debut.. If there is an internal debate as to how much to 'de-tune' the SX engine from the RX specs - well - I believe the Katoom has simplified the answer. Let the battle of the uber-fighters begin. | ||
| Torquehd |
Erik and team may do the same thing they did with the 1125R and CR, drop a tooth to make it more "citified". It looks like these two motors may be right on par with eachother, i'd like to see the 1290's dyno chart. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
That thing has one ugly arse headlight and assembly. That alone would keep me from buying it. | ||
| Reepicheep |
What kind of fuel economy does the 1290 super duke get? At $4 a gallon, yes, I care. | ||
| Trojan |
At $4 a gallon, yes, I care $4 a gallon! You should worry!!! Try paying GBP1.35 per litre for normal unleaded, which in your money works out at around US$9.80 per gallon! If economy was the biggest factor we'd all be riding superscooters or Honda NC700X's. People buying the 1290 Superduke will be worried more about wheelie potential than about fuel economy. | ||
| Xdigitalx |
That thing has one ugly arse headlight and assembly. That alone would keep me from buying it. I say the same thing about the speed/street triples bugeyes, but the ergonomics felt great (just sitting on it) I sat on the Ducati Hyperstrada which I thought would be my next bike because it looks like the perfect commuter (ok dream bike) but it's definitely way too small. http://www.1290superduker.com/cms/ Enter to win a SuperDuker for summer, possibly to keep) | ||
| Bartimus |
$4 a gallon? where is that? only $2.95 here in New Mexico... | ||
| Noone1569 |
LOL fuel economy discussion on a 180hp 106 ft lb, 400lb hooligan bike. Buy a prius. | ||
| Schwara |
Price has gotten close to that a time or two around Cincinnati here in the recent past. I've also seen it close in southern Indiana. Thankfully, the places I passed this morning were $3.22. Of course I was too lazy to gear up this morning for the bike so I took the poorer gas mileage 4 door. I was mad at myself the whole way because it looks beautiful outside ... beautiful but cold. | ||
| T_man |
I betcha the big Katoom gets decent fuel economy (if you ride on the street at sane speeds) by virtue of that monster of an engine only having to spin just past idle to pull its pilot around town. Kinda like how my old (C5) Vette would get incredible fuel mileage cruising down the hwy at just above tickover. But honestly, If 'fuel economy' is the only thing the SX can trump the Superduke on, I'd call that a negligible victory at best. To be honest (and I NEVER thought I'd feel this way) I think KTM may have actually went overboard with this one! I remember when the 1st TLS came out in '97 with 996cc's of pure twin terror and hit had the journo's crying bloody murder.. Now we seem to have a 1300cc built to instill terror nike about to be unleashed. And you know what? I believe, based on this reputation alone it will be a hit. The biggest baddest badass on the block. Just ask any Hayabusa owner why they bought theirs.. But I digress.. life is good when we find ourselves contemplating monster V-twins capable of pulling arms straight off and hoisting power wheelies in 4th gear. Welcome to the golden age and good luck to EBR! | ||
| Reepicheep |
I love it when engineers try achieve one great thing without selling out something else. Same reason I love my Saabs, they go like stink when I want them too, but they get good fuel economy the other 99% of the time. Saves money for good cigars and bourbon. | ||
| Blake |
The KTM may appeal to some, but it's just way too much goofy for me. I also agree with TMan; for some reason 1.3 L is too much. It seems KTM marketeers also understand that problem in perception, thus the "1290" moniker for a 1300cc machine. My Ulysses is the perfect amount of different for me. It's a shame that its continuing development was decapitated by a myopic, timid, and petty HDI. I'd rather keep my Uly or pay for a Ducati Hypermotard or a Beemer GS 1200 than be gifted three Super Dukes. | ||
| 2kx1 |
Like it or not, this Ktm is going to be the SX's #1 competition. Then the upcoming BMW s1000 naked. After that the V4 Tuono. Ducati will have a 1200 Monster showing at Eicma. Not to mention the 1090 MV Brutale. Whatever EBR comes up with ,it needs to be good ,VERY good. | ||
| Hughlysses |
+1 to what 2kx1 said. | ||
| Court |
>>>>>Like it or not, this Ktm is going to be the SX's #1 competition. You would never have heard the name Roger Bannister had it not been for John Landy. Court | ||
| 2kx1 |
Court , Are you saying the SX will be faster in 1500meters? | ||
| Satori |
I myself think its an excellent opportunity for Erik, having the KTM out. I am sure he is aware, and knows he needs to bring his best. If how the RX turned out is any indication, and I am sure it is. The SX and AX will be outstanding machines. (and I am damned excited to see them!) | ||
| T_man |
Court; The rivalry / popularity point is a good one. However, that was a sporting rivalry into uncharted territory (4 min mile) between to human beings. Much closer to home we've seen a number well matched '2 wheeled' rivalries in the past (ie. '97 TLS vs '97 VTR, '98 R1 vs '98 ZX-9, '01 Gixxer Thou vs. R1/CBR929 etc.) and guess what happened? 2nd place became the 1st loser, and were lucky to go on to sell half as well as their superior rivals. Plain and simple (excuse my language) but 'the biggest dog screws' - the rest fade into static as 'also rans'. I don't mean to take anything away from the EBR team or what they have accomplished as I am as passionate about seeing the man behind the motorcycle succeed as the actual motorcycles themselves, but they need to come out of the gates with an F-22 to win this dogfight.. I can only hope EBR's skunkworks dept. won't be pulling any punches with this one. | ||
| 2kx1 |
With what EBR has to work with, I am positive it can be done. Why else would they be pushing back the final product? | ||
| Torquehd |
Why else would they be pushing back the final product? They're detuning their 400hp hybrid to give the superduke a fighting chance?? | ||
| T_man |
EBR can pull a victory off here - no question about it. A huge factor on the subjective side that a few have already touched on is aesthetic appeal; they need to NAIL this - IMO all of the XB DNA and none of the 1125 series needs to be injected here. The Typhon experiment done overseas gets pretty darn close to that mark. Even though it was/is not an EBR produced test mule, it does exhibit a remarkable amount of 'Buellishness' that would help carve that all important brand distinction mark. Objectively; there is no doubt this thing will likely EASILY out handle anything else out there. I also get the impression the midrange of this beast will be 2nd to none - which is good because with the list of rivals about to be unleashed (see 2kx1's post) it will need it. Where the SX can trump them will be related to exactly how light it tips the scales at. If the EBR can come in say 10lb - 20lbs under its next lightest rival, anything it gives away in the top end will be nullified and statistic junkies will revel in the SX's amazing 1/4 mile #'s etc. Personally, I have no doubt this is a motorcycle I would buy over anything out there or anything 'about to be' out there, however I would be exponentially happier to see motorcycle journo's worldwide crown the SX as king of the streets. The SX could pave the way to EBR super-stardom.. just ask Ducati how important the Monster was from '93-'13. | ||
| Gregoxb |
I looked at the all the Superduke trims in 360 degrees for 15 minutes. I am not attracted to the bike in any way. I like naked bikes, but the Superduke takes the term very literally. The Ducatti trellis framed Monster is a thing of beauty b/c it manages to be naked but at the same time sleek. Even the Ducati Streetfighter and the Diavel, show you the goods but are elegant at the same time. The Superduke is showing you radiator hosing, hose clamps, etc. who wants to look at that? Making a good naked bike is an art. You gotta show the goods, but at the same time you have to hide unsightly bits and pieces. Its not just, "Pull the fairings off, paint it a cool color and sell it. The reason I bought an XB is b/c, in my opinion, Buell had captured the essence of what a naked bike should be. As far as I am concerned the XB is the benchmark for what a naked bike should be. I am confident that they will continue that concept in the coming models. I think their biggest advantage is the patented fuel in the frame design. It will give them a HUGE advantage to display the engine but at the same time hide the unsightly pieces. | ||
| Torquehd |
You gotta show the goods, but at the same time you have to hide unsightly bits and pieces i think a handful of women at my local bar could learn a thing or two from that quote. | ||
| Finedaddy1 |
To be successful you also must take into consideration the $ factor. The Monster was a "bread and butter" bike for Ducati and most anyone can afford it. | ||
| 2kx1 |
The 1200 monster that is due out is going to be its competition. Hopefully the SX will be priced in line with its competition. I t needs to offer superior performance which given the numbers from the prescription sounds doable. | ||
| Trojan |
I am not attracted to the bike in any way. The old saying 'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder' applies with motorcycles too. However I would say that KTM 's design company Ciska have been doing this 'edge' styling for a while, starting with the original Superduke back in 2005, and the designs have been very successful and very well received, particularly in Europe. Personally I love the KTM 1290 styling and think that Ducati, BMW, Aprilia and EBR will struggle to match the package on offer from KTM in terms of style, performance, value for money, dealerships/service, ownership experience and factory parts/accessories. KTM are growing faster than pretty much every manufacturer (Triumph may be close though) so are obviously doing something right. I am just as excited with their new RC390 lightweight though, although that is a completely different kettle of fish  | ||
| Gregoxb |
"i think a handful of women at my local bar could learn a thing or two from that quote." Hahahahahahaha ... its true though! When we talk "naked bike" we wanna see engine and tranny case, tits and ass.  If I wanted to fap to rubber hoses, clamps and wires I would make a quick stop at isle 7 at Pep Boys. Its like, honey, put your stomach roles away. I mean don't get me wrong, the Superduke is a serious piece of kit but do I have to look at its lymphatic system? | ||
| T_man |
Aesthetically speaking IMO some great examples of naked streetfighters; Moto Morini, Wakan, new Norton.. I know the new EBR SX will be more modern looking than these beauty's, but I hope Erik stops short of the switchblade like KTM. I said it before and I'll say it again; I think Buell did an outstanding job with the naked XB's.. something like that with the liquid cooler's muscle might just pull on good ol'American heartstrings enough to tilt the scales in EBR's favour when it comes to consumers plunking down actual green backs. Outstanding engineering is only half the equation when the heart leads the head and the hand reaches for the wallet..  | ||
| Hughlysses |
It could be KTM is deliberately going for the "love it or hate it" look. One story that really impressed me with this approach was the new Dodge Ram truck design back in 1994. Dodge's pickup sales at that time were miserable; they were a distant 3rd to Ford and Chevy. Their design team came up with two alternative designs, a modern but conservative design, and the design with a big center grill and semi-separate front fenders intended to resemble a "big rig" (the design that was eventually built). When shown to prospective buyers, most people liked the conservative design OK, while a few didn't. When shown the "radical" design, something like 75% of people hated it but 25% said they'd buy one tomorrow if they could. Dodge's share of the pickup market at the time was <10%. If the 25% that said they loved the truck bought one, they'd more than double their sales. They went with the more radical design, and within 4 years had increased their sales by 400% (!). Read more here: http://www.allpar.com/model/ram/1994-ram.html I can see that KTM may be doing something similar. They've got heavy competition- better to build a distinctive bike than to design another "me too". Which end of the spectrum EBR aims for remains to be seen. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I suspect...."distinctive" will be an understatement. Looking back on previous Buell designs - and the ORIGINAL Buell Hooligan, the S1 - I have no doubt the SX will be a spectacular presentation of power, finesse, and looks. (image courtesy of classicbuell.com)  | ||
| Trojan |
Moto Morini, Wakan, new Norton The problem there is that two of those three have gone out of business, the other (Norton) is way behind on orders that are being hand built. None are 'modern' stye but are designed to appeal to retro fans. A bit like the new Royal Enfield/Triumph Bonneville/Guzzi V7 but with a lot more power  I like retro, don't get me wrong. But I love the edgy KTM styling right across the range, and the 1290 does a good job of continuing their corporate style while bringing it bang up to date. I just pray that EBR haven't still got the designer of the 1125CR tucked away somewhere waiting to release a new model  | ||
| Court |
>>>I just pray Kinda funny . . . here's the front of the catalog.  | ||
| Torquehd |
When we talk "naked bike" we wanna see engine and tranny case, tits and ass I draw the line at "tranny"... | ||
| Ratbuell |
Some of the original ad copy was simply genius. Maybe we'll see some of that raw, blunt style again now that HD's hands are out of the picture. | ||
| Gregoxb |
My #1 question is: Will EBR offer an air-cooled XB type bike ever again? A monster naked bike is cool, no doubt. But what about us guys who are satisfied with 100HP rumbling V-twin in a sporty package? | ||
| Reepicheep |
I want a new "EBR: carve some concrete" window sticker!!!! Heck, I should just get one made... | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Ahhhh. The old S1's. I worked a HD dealership and no one would set up those Buells. All those longhaired longbearded tatted up wannabes had to be forced to work on them. First time I took one out for its test ride I came back and told the service manager I'll do them all from now on. That was the most fun I ever had while getting paid. | ||
| Midknyte |
My #1 question is: Will EBR offer an air-cooled XB type bike ever again? A monster naked bike is cool, no doubt. But what about us guys who are satisfied with 100HP rumbling V-twin in a sporty package? Count me in on this too | ||
| 2kx1 |
I think air-cooled is on its way out. Bmw is almost done with it. Ithink ducati is going the same way. I do think 2 different displacements could be made with the ET-V2. Perhaps a smaller version with lower power or not so high strung. Although I don't think of the 1190 as being high strung , just very highpowered. | ||
| T_man |
I agree - as much as I love the simplicity of a good ol' air cooled twin, I wager to say its days are numbered. I think its safe to say you can count EBR out from using any more Harley lumps. Nothing against those old lumps, but good riddance to the bar and shield. I'd rather see a Ducati desmo hanging in an EBR frame to be honest.. I'd imagine this new 1190 will have so much midrange grunt that anyone wanting to simply lug it around below 6k will have all the power they'd ever want in comparison to an air cooler. A simple stroke increase, softer cams and re-tuned ECM may increase this even further. Better to have the afterburner and not need it rather than need it and not have it! | ||
| 2kx1 |
I would like it if they made another a/c twin. I would really like to get the info on the 1340 screamer and the turbo bike info also. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Even HD is going watercooled...they're burying it in bodywork so they don't offend their "core market" with the radical change...but it's there nonetheless. | ||
| Hootowl |
Joe, don't you read the marketing literature? They're not water cooled, they're twin cooled. | ||
| Hotcad |
Twin cooled=Piss Head | ||
| 2kx1 |
My Ducati has watercooled heads. Its a 98. | ||
| Torquehd |
I'd rather see a Ducati desmo hanging in an EBR frame to be honest. I'd love to see Erik and team take on the project of getting rid of valvesprings, something along the lines of the desmo heads. | ||
| 2kx1 |
I would like to see pnuematic valves. I don't think they need adjustment. | ||
| Torquehd |
it's hard to imagine that the gain would outweigh the benefit. pneumatic would require a compressor, actuators, tank, airlines, lots of extra weight. | ||
| Trojan |
I would like to see pnuematic valves. Utterly impractical for road bikes. The extra technology required would make for more servicing time, not less, and cost would be hugely prohibitive. MotoGP race bikes and F1 cars manage because they are rebuilt every couple of hours at most, and they can afford the technology. In terms of extra power people like us wouldn't even notice the improvement. Even the new 'customer' Honda RCV1000 has got old fashioned valve springs in order to keep the costs under control. I would much rather see advances in chassis construction and suspension than in engine modifications. | ||
| 2kx1 |
OK no to pnuematics. maybe variable valve timing. Many bikes are making too much power,on the track or off. More mid-range is really what is needed on the streetand not top end. Judging by the torque curve on the RX, I don't know how much further they can go. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"I also agree with TMan; for some reason 1.3 L is too much. It seems KTM marketeers also understand that problem in perception, thus the "1290" moniker for a 1300cc machine. " while its odd they dont call it a 1300, its not as bad as the 984cc buells being called XB9's, closer to a liter bike than a 900cc | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
camless engine using either pneumatic valves OR piezoelectric valves http://jalopnik.com/the-future-of-the-internal-com bustion-engine-is-camless-369015485 http://www.me.sc.edu/research/AARG/Thesis%20Final. pdf | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Its a good thing Aprilia didnt build this in 2008. Things might be a little different now. http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/aprilia/apr ilia_fv2_1200.htm | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
a PSP for an instrument cluster? no thanks... | ||
| T_man |
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.visordown.c om/road-tests-first-rides/first-ride-ktm-1290-supe r-duke-r-review/23805.html&sa=U&ei=Dx13UqSbLKiMigK 04YCgCg&ved=0CBgQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNE3ah1SwYCQzDZ4JXpb 91gmFeQ7FQ Well well... I wish I could take back my original thread title; 'Something "Neutered" This Way Comes..' now seems more appropriate. Ride by wire, anti wheelie control etc etc takes too much of the human out of the equation here. EBR: it seems KTM hasn't been able to really deliver the hooligan that was promised to the people despite an outrageous marketing campgain. Bring on the full power, 3rd gear wheel standing SX to the big boys sandbox who like thier thrills undiluted. When I dial in 80% violence on the loudstick I don't want the computer to feed me anything less. Anyways, the road test is worth a read.. | ||
| Trojan |
Well well... I wish I could take back my original thread title; 'Something "Neutered" This Way Comes..' now seems more appropriate. Ride by wire, anti wheelie control etc etc takes too much of the human out of the equation here. You obviously didn't read (or they didn't mention in that particular test) that as on all KTM bikes you can turn the traction control OFF completely if you wish to. That means you can have all the power the KTM offers, all the time if you so wish . I would suggest however that most people will ride with at least some traction control dialled in, just as they will on the EBR and other litre + bikes these days. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Yeh, all that stuff you don't want will soon be a fact of life for sport bikes. Companies aren't going to unleash 185+ HP bikes to the public without it mostly for safety and liability issues. | ||
| Ratbuell |
And for those of us too dumb to park our bikes in bad weather (rain, cold, wet leaves, etc) a little TC available would be very welcome. I also appreciate ABS. the only issue I had riding HD police motors with ABS was remembering to put my feet down. when you stop...you stop RIGHT NOW. no drama, no carrying on. Same for some BMWs that I've ridden. just a little lever quiver to tell you the pumps are doing their thing...then get those feet down NOW because you aren't moving anymore. For a track day bike? Give it an "off" switch. Bury it in a menu if needed for liability reasons...but allow the rider to toggle it if they want/need to. | ||
| T_man |
Trojan; I maintain my stance and from your comments I suspect that it was you that did not actually take the time to read the test. Your point re the ability to turn to TC off is correct, but in this case the devil is in the details. IMO they went overboard with the preventative safety measures with this one and the author nails it. "But Mr Bosch will see to it that your wheelie is computer controlled and safer than mowing the lawn. That's no fun." "If you dial in 40% of twist, you get just over 20% of bang. Open it up to 60% and you get 40%, at 80% you get 65%. Fortunately, at 100% open you get 100% throttle but the journey to 100% feels a bit ‘Diet Coke’ when you were after the real thing." "There probably isn’t a modern bike out there, especially those with Ride by Wire, where, when it comes to power delivery, you get exactly what you ask for but on the SD1290, it feels a bit like I’ve been shortchanged." | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well, since we've pretty much beaten the KTM into the ground, let's move on to another contender for EBR 1190SX competition:  http://www.cyclenews.com/396/22563/Racing-Article/ First-Look--2014-Monster-1200.aspx | ||
| 2kx1 |
The SX will thoroughly trounce either Monster. 135 and 145 HP. I was expecting so much more from Ducati. | ||
| Gregoxb |
Although it doesn't have as much power as the SuperDuke, I'll take that Ducati based on looks alone. | ||
| T_man |
Aesthetically, Ducati did a great job in comparison to the switchblade KTM. Personally, with the 1198 engine tuned for even more midrange torque, I suspect this is going to be one VERY satisfying motorbike to ride on the street. I do wonder however if Ducati has crowded thier own lineup with 3 very similar offerings; being this new Monster, the Diavel and the Streetfighter(s). Its going to be one hell of a comparision test when the mags get thier hands on these.. | ||
| Sticks |
While I'm eagerly awaiting the introduction of the SX, I know that I'm not as likely to buy an $18,000 bike as I am a $13,000 bike that does all the right stuff. I get that the Ducati has 30 fewer ponies. | ||
| Trojan |
Aesthetically, Ducati did a great job in comparison to the switchblade KTM. I couldn't disagree more (which I suppose is why different people buy different bikes ) The new Monster looks like.....the unwanted love child of the old Monster that has had a brief fling with a Diavel Very disapointing. They must have spent weeks raiding the parts bin to see what they could fit without having to develop anything really new. The KTM may be 'Marmite' (love it or hate it) but it is definitely all new at least | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
I'll take my CR over the duc and ktm anyday. I think the SX will easily topple these two. Anxiously awaiting its arrival. | ||
| 2kx1 |
Price will be the deciding factor for many . | ||
| Court |
>>>Price will be the deciding factor for many . That's true. But price is only ONE of the elements that motivates consumers to buy and MUST be in balance with the others. There are +/-'s on both end of the pricing spectrum and there is a defined science to pricing, it's not just a "what do you think we can get for this?" exercise. Prices something too low and you erode the sense of quality and exclusivity. Price it too high and you place yourself in the mix with other very worthy competitors. The 1190AX, subject of the instant debate, will . . . I suspect be not only a worthy competitor but may well define an entirely new market segment. Pricing starts with targets established in the early design concept phases. Along the way price vs. quality / functionality challenges take place. Such as . . . we are budgeted for Showa forks . . the marginal price increase for Ohlins is . . what does that do to the elasticity of demand? Price and scope creep management is huge. If you think that higher price, in and of itself, is a detriment . . . .look at high priced real estate and explain why . . . . Porsche has been setting sales records this year.
As much as I admire the ass kicking EBR is set to deal some of the folks in the business with the RX . . . like many of you . . . I'm waiting on the AX and betting it's going to be my next NYC to LA non-stop ride. | ||
| 2kx1 |
The "S" is 16k and 145 hp. While it says Ohlins ,it may as well say Fauxlins. While they are better than the base Monster suspension they are not R&T forks . I haven' been paying attention but just about every ducati in the past never ran right unless the"race"ecu and a free flowing exhaust was installed. Those parts are very expensive 2k-3k usually. I do see the value and performance potential that EBR is offering and I do hope that other customers do. | ||
| T_man |
Make no mistake Ducati has a LOT riding on this latest Monster.. Like following up on the 916, it might take a few tries to re-capture the passion the original induced - but I do appreciate they at least tried, the single round(ish) headlight keeping the Il Monstro theme alive and well. I can't help but agree with Trojan re the Diavel influence though, but not in a bad way. What will the face of the SX portray? Old school twin XB eyes? Transformer CR helmet? Something completely new? They say the eyes are the window to the soul, a motorcycles headlights are no different. Time will tell! | ||
| Trojan |
The 1190AX, subject of the instant debate, will . . . I suspect be not only a worthy competitor but may well define an entirely new market segment. While it may be eagerly anticipated (at least by us Buell fans), the rest of the world is not waiting with bated breath or holding the front page for the EBR AX. Market segments are not duicated by small volume manufacturers sadly, but by the big 4 Japanense companies and the large European makers. The AX would have to bring something completely different to teh table to say it will start a new market segment, and I cannot imagine what that would be to make it that much different to other existing or proposed naked sportsbikes from established manufacturers. EBR would be better to try and grab a slice of an existing, profitable and successful segment than to try and invent a new one (that people may not want?). I haven' been paying attention but just about every ducati in the past never ran right unless the"race"ecu and a free flowing exhaust was installed. You mean like all the previous Buell models, H-D models and just about every new bike on the planet where manufacturers are limited by emmissions/noise laws at the factory? I can't think of s ingle modern bike that is not improved by a 'race' ECU and decent exhaust. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Trojan - the AX is the "new Ulysses". The SX is the naked. | ||
| Trojan |
\iTrojan - the AX is the "new Ulysses". The SX is the naked.{} The same argument applies though. Will the AX be a'new market segment' or will it be in the same market segemnt as the BMWR1200GS/KTM Adventure/Suzuki V-Strom etc? Buyers are not looking for a new market sector and they will invariably compare new bikes agaist similar exisiting choices. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then buyers will probably compare it against other ducks (to misuse a well known and hackneyed expression), they won't just call it a Swan. (Message edited by trojan on November 06, 2013) | ||
| Reepicheep |
I talked to a club racer at Mid Ohio and asked him if he liked the fact that his Ducati came with factory Ohlins. He had a funny answer, he said yes, because whatever suspension on the bike has to be replaced with high end customer tweaked race stuff anyway (also Ohlins, but not sreet stuff), and if the parts he pulls says "Ohlins" he can sell it for more to suckers that think they need it for their street bikes. | ||
| Gregoxb |
EBR really has a chance to attract the attention of the 20s age bracket as long as they can bring something to the floor that is going to stick out. If they can package a look that is uniquely and unmistakably American it will arouse an interest from those customers that are looking to distinguish themselves from the crowd. I know there are more Buell fans out there they just don't know it yet. (Message edited by gregoxb on November 06, 2013) | ||
| Trojan |
EBR really has a chance to attract the attention of the 20s age bracket as long as they can bring something to the floor that is going to stick out. In order to attract the 20's age bracket you need something affordable to buy, run and insure. I'm not sure about the USA but over here 20 somethings simply cannot afford to insure a litre plus sports bike because insurance costs are so prohibitive. This is one reason why KTM, Triumph, Harley and others are jumping on the 250-500cc bandwagon now (as well trying to access emerging markets where big bikes simply don't sell). Once you get 18-20 year olds onto a small affordable bike it is more likely that you will get them to move up to a big bike. Trying to entice them straight onto an expensive litre+ bike won't work because they can't afford it and are the wrong tyarget audience for suhc machines. The 1190RX, AX and SX models will appeal to experienced motorcyclists with disposable inclome who can afford to buy and run them. Unfortunately that means fighting for the same small demographic (40-50 year olds) that everyone else aims at too. | ||
| T_man |
Trojan, FYI here in North America there are plenty of twenty somethings tearing around on 1000cc+ road burners. Usually shirtless and wearing flip flops. I should know, I had three Gixxer 1100's by the time I was 18, but I drew the line at flip-flops.. | ||
| Bads1 |
Tman But in this present day there isn't and especially at close to 20G. Sales are just now starting to get better. You had 3 1100's before 18 and full coverage insurance?? Boy you must of had one hell of a job or great parents. | ||
| T_man |
I flipped bikes for profit in highschool.. always +50% ROI, never had more than one bike at a time and bare minimum coverage. Go big or go home mon ami. Anyhow, point is/was there are plenty of younger folk on big bores then and now. The used market affords lots of opportunity. | ||
| Bads1 |
We are talking used. We are talkin 18G and a loan and insurance for a bike that's 185 HP. Its not affordable to 80% of our younger generation.Mininum coverage?? You mean Liability. See if you bank or loan holder will except that on a 20G loan?? | ||
| T_man |
Bads, regardless, there are certainly more youngin's rollin' out on the big iron here in North America than across the pond. Lets leave it at that. More pertinent to the thread.. meet the new face of German craziness: S1000R. We all knew this guy was coming to the party.  | ||
| Satori |
Reminds me of a squinting pirate.......ugh | ||
| Theirishbueller |
Could it be any uglier? Wooooow... | ||
| Gregoxb |
Lol, I kinda like it, very German. I just don't agree with a naked street bike that's a straight 4 cylinder. Seems like commuting to work in a Formula 1 car. I agree with the price comments about the EBR. They need to bring something competitive to their stable that will cost around the 9k range... soon. | ||
| Trojan |
Surprises me that it has taken BMW 3 years to develop a bike that just looks like a crashed/badly repaired S1000RR. Not my cup of tea at all Likewise the new Z1000 kawasaki...It looks to me like the front headlight has slipped down the forks by accident and needs to be hitched back up again (The KTM has the same look but not quite so extreme). | ||
| 46champ |
So Matt do you have your hat in the ring to become the EBR dealer for England? | ||
| Xdigitalx |
The new Monster doesn't look like something from Transformers or Alien. Nice curves. | ||
| Trojan |
So Matt do you have your hat in the ring to become the EBR dealer for England? If I was in the market to sell/service new bikes then I would certainly be looking at it. However, we are going to stick purely to aftermarket parts as I really don't want the hassles of extra staff, workshops, showrooms etc etc | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
The S1Krr is practically naked as it is, so I'm not sure what BMW is doing there. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
This has a oddly similiar headlight assembly to the RX. Hope this doesnt end up on the SX. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Hyosung/hyo sung_gt_650x%2008.htm | ||
| Al_lighton |
"Likewise the new Z1000 kawasaki...It looks to me like the front headlight has slipped down the forks by accident and needs to be hitched back up again (The KTM has the same look but not quite so extreme)." Man, you're not kidding....YUK!!   I can't make up my mind which one is uglier, the Kaw or the Beemer. They're both hideous forward of the handlebars. | ||
| T_man |
I couldn't agree more. You may call the bikes I posted pics of earlier in the thread sentimental, retro even boring - but guess what? They look like REAL motorcycles and not something the Predator sh*t out after eating Optimus Prime. | ||
| Smoke4ndmears |
The Kaw is beautiful to me. Quite like. | ||
| Blake |
Naked motorcycle:  | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
That Kaw looks like a.crocodile. | ||
| M2typhoon |
^That's because who ever designed the fairings is a crock. | ||
| Cringblast |
Blake, that is sweet. Hmmm | ||
| Buelljunkie |
Blake - best looking one of the bunch. Love the 97/98 M2 bodywork... | ||
| Buelljunkie |
And what a shining example! So nice.. | ||
| T_man |
What about this offering from Yamaha? FZ-09: 53lbs lighter (414lbs wet) than the outgoing FZ8. Inline 3, 113hp & 65ft lbs; $7999. Yes the SX will eat it in every category, but at less than half the price - appealing for some?  | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
That Yamaha is another fail with the headlight. Looks like crap. Im digging the frame though. Cant wait to hear that engine with akro's or yoshi's. | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
100+ posts and still on page one | ||
| Hughlysses |
100+ posts and still on page one That seems to have happened on several threads recently. What's up with that? | ||
| Gregoxb |
I agree Yamaha looks like a Japanese anime manga wet dream. Not for me. | ||
| 2kx1 |
Spring time is going to be interesting when magazines have the naked bike shootouts. I think the Ktm and EBR will be neck and neck. more than likely it will come down to which is just an all out RAW motorcycle. That Yamaha doesn't even belong inthis category.I do like its "Ducati/KTM" exhaust. | ||
| Sir_wadsalot |
All the current naked headlights are PHAILS. There must be some law somewhere tha the housing has to be high and the light itself has to be low, like a bulb height restriction or something. Even the simple round headlight on the SV1000 and the original Monster looked way better. The Pegasus looks fantastic in this regard, and if Erik can get the headlight right on his machine he'll have a huge leg up. The Yammy looks great but not in the price range, the Duc is uber sexy for a change, and the KTM is all sci-fi dirtbike, like everything else they do. If you think that pre-production review of the Super Duke is going to reflect the production bike, you are mistaken. The 1125R pre production bikes ran wonkey and the press panned it, It pre-killed sales for Erik, and as we all know the 1125 is a fanatastic machine. The electronics need to be sorted still, and there has to be a balance between brutality and rideability. All KTM's have a race mode, there's a chip plug-in under the seat. "Ready to Race" is not a joke, they take that stuff seriously. The S-D will be our competition, period. No one interested in a 180hp V-Twin will give two shites about the Beemer, which looks like a Gixxer that got punched in the face, and I love the looks of the original. After seeing the madUSA concept, BMW has screwed the pooch. But nobody in this segment wants an I-4 anyhoo. (Message edited by sir_wadsalot on November 12, 2013) | ||
| Court |
>>>It pre-killed sales for Erik Precisely why . . . as tempting as it is to share incremental information . . you will never hear another word about a new product until it's on the way to the dealers. The 1125 fiasco showed that the "let us take a look at it and we'll give you honest feedback" ranks right up there with "If you like your health care . . . " I used to take development stuff from the factory and would slap all sorts of stickers and stuff on it to divert folks' attention/eyes. Lesson learned. Well. | ||
| 2kx1 |
ALL injected KTM's ran horribly until the dual plug 1190's. And it wasn't just a pipe and the Akrapovic map away from being fixed, it was a custom tune. Buell's had ecm spy,Ktm had tune ecu, and still have horrible mileage, like upper 20's low 30's. MV will never get get there fueling right, period end of story. That BMW is Really UgLy. | ||
| M2typhoon |
So let me get this straight. KTM says it's a 1290 right? Then why the hell is it 1301cc's? This has to be one of the biggest motorcycle pet peeves I have. Just say what it is for gods sake!A 1300cc v-twin... | ||
| Ratbuell |
Thank your insurance industry... | ||
| Hybridmomentspass |
"So let me get this straight. KTM says it's a 1290 right? Then why the hell is it 1301cc's? This has to be one of the biggest motorcycle pet peeves I have. Just say what it is for gods sake!A 1300cc v-twin..." chill | ||
| Tll130 |
It's all about marketing for the name 1290 super duke is catchier then 1300 super duke. At least to me it is just like the 1190 is a catchy name. And I don't mean to revive old convos but I am 21y/o and my friends range from 20-35 and we have the money/ financial backing to get a 15-20k motorcycle. If not more hell I know for a fact it's going to be a standing fight with me between the ebr and ktm I need to see which is better because I will be buying one more than likely the ebr unless the ktm blows my mind in some weird way. It's no longer as much about price for most people as it is being an individual. Hell I've got a friend who put 35k$ after market not including bike price into his hayabusa granted it's without a doubt the sexiest hayabusa I've ever seen but he's 24. And as for the "naked street fighter look" you can't really blame the companies I think they look nice and that is what the younger demographic is looking for they like the street fighter cafe racer kind of looks. Marketing drives big companies not logic. Hell look at harley they have a huge marketing tords the older generation that's why there bikes don't ever really change in the styling aspect and in some very wise words why fix what's not broken. | ||
| Trojan |
For those that thought the traction control on the KTM1290 would be too intrusive.....take a look at jeremy McWilliams taking a leisurely tour around Ascari circuit in Italy here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgaVzBrGNuM Where is the switch for anti wheelie please? | ||
| Tll130 |
I will never understand traction control on a motorcycle it just confuses the hell out of me it's only 2 Wheels I think it will hurt more then help hell I don't even like my traction control in my car it hurts More then it helps If you can't control yourself like racers have been doing for how long maybe you A.shouldnt be racing B.shouldnt have a sport bike or C. Shouldn't be riding at all. Just my personal opinion. But then again maybe I'm misinformed what advantages will traction control give the racers? | ||
| Trojan |
If you can't control yourself like racers have been doing for how long maybe you A.shouldnt be racing B.shouldnt have a sport bike or C. Shouldn't be riding at all. tell that to any modern racer and they would laugh at you. Like it or not, TC is here to stay and will play a lot bigger part in our lives rather than less. As power increases so will the electronics required to keep it on the road and in one piece and 'protect us from ourselves'. | ||
| Crackhead |
Tll130, You have just driven cars with bad traction control or the TC was used as band aids for bad engineering. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
Have you even rode a bike with traction control? I doubt you can compare it to TC on a car. | ||
| Brumbear |
 | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well, here's another potential competitor, the Moto Morini Rebello 1200:  http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults /New-bikes/2012/April/apr0212-moto-morini-rebello- 1200-revealed/ | ||
| Trojan |
That is just Fugly I wouldn't worry too much about Morini, they will probably be bust again before any of those things get built. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I thought I had just read Moto Morini had gone bankrupt again, then I saw an article on the bike last night. It is pretty weird-looking; the appearance seems horrendously top/front heavy. The passenger seat/butt rest gizmo is sort of neat though. | ||
| Ezblast |
The seat is shades of an earlier Buell - lol EZ | ||
| Gregoxb |
That seat looks uncomfortable lol. | ||
| Torquehd |
Is there some kind of game that manufacturers play, where they see how ugly they can make a bike that is still marketable? the morini's front fender. that is all. | ||
| T_man |
Moto Morini has set a new standard in ugliness. Wow. Hearkening back a to Triumph's reemergence to the cycle scene (circa '95 w single headlight) please see (what I believe) helped the naked/cafe racer category kick started to life. This bad ass Brit competed against and complemented the original Monster's fame. I actually owned the faired version ('95 900 Daytona in black). Rode it across Canada (Vancouver to Toronto), learned it was a heavy locomotive, sold it and got a TL1000S instead. But it 'rumphy certainly looked the part...  | ||
| Tll130 |
No honestly never been on a motorcycle with traction control. But like I asked is it that much of an added bonus im assuming its much better then the ones in an average persons car seeing as racing teams often have a higher budget then the average person lol. But then again the most I've ever toyed around in an "expensive car" was a gt500 it was a blast only way I could really tell the difference tc on then tc off was burnouts went through some pretty sharp turns at high speeds with both on and off can't say I felt much difference but I far from pushed it to its limits then again I am inexperienced with tc on motorcycles and that's the truth. How much better is it actually? And I will have to hop on one to see for myself. And is it better just for track or for everyday purpose aswell? I couldn't imagin it being a significant enough change to an average rider who rides in nice weather mostly and doesn't race down the public highway lol (Message edited by Tll130 on November 21, 2013) | ||
| Old_guy |
Although I loved to look of my XB12S, for me nothing comes close, except maybe the new Norton, to the Ducati 1000 Classic sport for naked bike beauty.  | ||
| 46champ |
T man thanks for the picture of the single headlight speed triple. I like them better than any of the later dual headlight versions. I am waiting on what the SX is going to look like I just hope it is something I won't have to grimace to look at. I could use a really classic looking standard motorcycle that I could be proud of for the next 10 years and 100,000 miles. | ||
| Sir_wadsalot |
My KTM guy says MSRP on the Super Duke will be- " I also found out the MSRP this morning. $16,995!!" That's gonna be hard for EBR to meet, I think. If the 1290 SD isn't neutered and is 3 grand less than the naked 1190, that's gonna suuuuck. Let's hope Erik can beat the 19sum thousand price point on the nekkid one! Trev's got an event in cali next month with a handfull of 'em, he'll probably get a demo for a few weeks out of it. Will keep you all appraised of the competition. | ||
| Blake |
How do you arrive at "3 grand less"? | ||
| Blake |
The MSRP for the fully faired EBR 1190RX superbike version is $18,995. "http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/10/17/ebr-unveils-2 014-ebr-1190rx-at-aimexpo/ If I had to pay another $2K to not have to ride something as hideously ugly as the new SuperDuke, that's a really easy choice to make. | ||
| Satori |
When I talked to my local dealer two weeks ago, he told me that EBR was still waffling on price, at somewhere between $17,500- 18,995. | ||
| Hughlysses |
^ Interesting. I remember some of the info that was posted at www.ebrdealer.info a few months ago implied there would be quite a bit of "wiggle room" in the MSRP, which would enable dealers to deal a bit. BTW- I wonder if bikes have started rolling off the production line yet? Production was supposed to start in early December. That's actually a pretty exciting thought- there hasn't been a true production line in that East Troy building in close to 4 years now. | ||
| Figorvonbuellingham |
I don't understand how a company that make such a beautiful bike as the rc8r can launch something as hideous as that super duke. Id spend the extra 2 grand for the EBR without even seeing it rather then buy that ugly ass ktm. | ||
| Sir_wadsalot |
My bad, two grand less. Dyslexic, not great with the numbers if I don't pay attention. I was comparing 16 to 19. Call the KTM ugly if you want, but plenty of people have called Buells ugly over the years too. Both companies have polarising asthetics. They're still undercutting us by two grand, and money is in the wallet of the beholder. Then again, at that price point two G's may just not be that big a deal. | ||
| Yjsrule |
I rode a 1290 last week, pretty fun bike to ride. Nice torque obviously, electronics package is well done. I've ridden a couple RC8s as well and for riding fun on the road, the SD wins any day. Too bad it's ugly. | ||
| Ezblast |
http://blogs.motorcyclistonline.com/lotus-c-01-v-t win-prototype-superbike-announced-40627.html Hmmm - EZ | ||
| Midknyte |
>...lotus... gods does that look like a bike designed by a car designer or what! | ||
| Firstbuell |
I kinda like the emblem on the radiator screen | ||
| Ezblast |
Blake - that bike of yours is beautiful - I hope I can get my next build to at least half that quality - great job there - now back to topic. What makes the Lotus interesting is their adaptation of their formula tech - probably finicky as all get out though, but a really nice first attempt. EZ |
