| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
Marquez tries passing Lorenzo, but here is a somewhat diminished Marquez. Marquez admits that he tried as hard as he could to pass Lorenzo, but was simply not fast enough. Eventually I'm sure he settled for second after he made a number of mistakes trying to keep up. Lorenzo's problem (if it can be called a problem!) is that he is so smooth and makes so few mistkaes that he doesn't look like he is going fast or trying hard. However, look at his lap times and you'll see that he progressively just piles on the pressure lap after lap after lap, until either he or Marquez has to make a mistake. Lorenzo made no mistakes at all so he won deservedly in my view. What I want to see is where this perfect Lorenzo happened on Sunday as it looked very much to me like Marquez let him have it without much of a fight save one not very strong attempt. Marquez was naver able to get close enough to attempt a pass, so really had no choice eventually but to concede the victory to Jorge. I think we will see next weekend (for the first time) that Marquez just may play the long game at last and effectively cruise around to ensure at least 4th place is his. Until now he has been very trying hard every race (have you seen the slo mo footage of him in the braking zones on Sunday!). Pedrosa on the other hand has obvioulsy had the talk from HRC and told not to fight against Marquez. he looked like someone had shot his dog in the podium enclosure and was not a happy camper at all. he blamed all the usual stuff but it was obvious he wasn't going to get in the way of Marc, and I expect him to ride shotgun next week too if he can't beat Lorenzo. | ||
| Trojan |
OK it isn't MotoGP, but this made me smile.... http://www.bikesportnews.com/news-detail.cfm?newst itle=Freddie-Sheene-podiums-on-race-debut-at-Thund ersport-Donington&newsid=10852 The apple never falls far from the tree  | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Australian? I know I know. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
What I saw was Marquez having a couple of looks at a pass and running wide in the attempt. It was this that opened up a small gap. Lorenzo continued his high pace and Marquez continued to miss apexes in an attempt to close the gap. Well, not quite. Having watched the race again and listened to Marquez post race, I stand by my previous comments. Marquez went down the outside of Lorenzo with 10 to go but couldn't lay the bike into the corner with Lorenzo in the way. It was repeated in slo-mo. Marquez as a consequence drops back half a second only to catch Lorenzo again inside two laps and now with 8 to go. At this point Lorenzo ups the pace again, as it had dropped slightly with 15 to go, Marquez following never more than .3 sec behind. With 7 to go backmarkers are in the mix and it's clear as daylight you can see Marquez lets the gap open from half to one and a half seconds. Marquez says after, he decided the risk to go for the win wasn't worth it with 20 points for 2nd, stating his reason, Lorenzo's fast pace means he would have to ride hard for it with a bike he didn't get set up properly. He having never ridden Moto GP at this track previously, and the lack of track time, some of which was in wet conditions. 20 points will do nicely thank you very much. Marquez stating he settled for a tactical point score. As for Lorenzo, I saw a usual Lorenzo is all. The ride of the race was undoubtedly that of Rossi's, he having fought his way back to 6th. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
Marquez went down the outside of Lorenzo with 10 to go but couldn't lay the bike into the corner with Lorenzo in the way. That is precisley why Lorenzo won. he was inch perfect every lap. It is one thing to cathc a rider/driver when racing but a completely different thing to actually set up and pass a fast rider who is on the perfect racing line every corner of every lap like Lorenzo was. The ride of the race was undoubtedly that of Rossi's, he having fought his way back to 6th. You know that I am a big Rossi fan, and his fight back was spectacular (if only because he managed to overtake people!). However it certainly wasn't the ride of the race simply because he made too many mistakes to slip back into 11th in the first place. Lorenzo may not have looked spectacular, and he didn't have to pass anyone or even ride defensively for 99% of the race, but his was undoubtedly the ride of the race, maybe even the ride of the season so far. | ||
| Jaimec |
Give it up, Matt. Just as Vagelis46 and XB1125R will NEVER admit Rossi is "The GOAT," I've a feeling Rocket will NEVER admit to the fact that Lorenzo is currently the most "complete" racer on the grid right now. | ||
| Jaimec |
My feelings about this are pretty much about the same I had regarding Roger Federer: http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/Oct/13103046r. htm Time marches on. Max Biaggi did it right and left at the top of his game knowing it would probably be the last time he'd have the title even if he continued. In AMA Superbike, Mladin also retired on top, winning the title one last time before heading back to the Outback. One can only wonder WHAT IF Rossi hadn't wasted two years of his career on that steaming red pile of cacare. | ||
| Bads1 |
But mladin is contemplating a return | ||
| Jaimec |
That would be a HUGE mistake (unless, of course, that return involves him assembling a team to compete with him managing). Golf and Tennis have "Senior Tours." Maybe he's thinking of starting one of those?  | ||
| Bads1 |
Why a huge mistake?? For one hes a draw to our series. If he wins or loses but stays top 4 hes keeping fans. I think if hes in shape he'll still kick the crap out of many in our paddock as of now. The man has sold a lot of GSXR's in the US. Many would love to see his arrogant ass again regardless | ||
| Jaimec |
If only to see him humiliated? He's been out of competition and training for a few YEARS now... | ||
| Bads1 |
Yates was out for almost two years. If he comes back and in shape hes still gonna be good. One thing I can say for him.... hes a very focused serious racer. If he come with even 3/4s of that determination he'll be a force. | ||
| Xb1125r |
jaimec dont blame ducati for Rossi sucking, he was done the day Lorenzo joined Yamaha. He proved he proved he is not Stoner and that is why Stoner made fun of Rossi. I actually now feel sorry for Rossi, he looks like a dog that has been beeten to many times. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
If Lorenzo's was the perfect race Marquez followed him into every corner, sometimes trying different lines, no doubt looking for a way past. That Marquez tries a pass by going deep into a right hand corner on the outside of Lorenzo, with the intention I assume of cutting in and across the apex to get down the inside does this make a racer making such a manoeuvre a lesser rider than the one he's trying to find a way past? Could it not be argued Marquez showed a different set of skills, equally if not more so, than Lorenzo whilst tapping into race craft Lorenzo could not as he was busy racing and defending the best line? Fact remains Lorenzo won. Is it not also a fact Marquez let him? Could Marquez have won? I think so had he taken the risk of riding in the style we've become accustomed to. His lap times and race pace suggest so. At no time did Lorenzo get away from him. In fact the opposite is true. We saw Marquez catch Lorenzo twice. That Marquez gave up trying to pass, and to watch the style Marquez rode in, anyone watching could see Marquez was not doing the usual aggressive hard in, slide the rear, lift rear off ground, in the way we've seen all season. This was a more controlled Marquez wasn't it? Instead he showed a more tactical side to his racing is what it looked like to me. Jaime, I am a Rossi fan but I'm not blinkered to him. On his day he is unbeatable. This season I am not convinced Lorenzo's bike is not a better bike by some margin. I've said so here recently. Riddle me this. Rossi goes off track, spends all but four laps chasing down positions. Overtakes several others to finish 6th. Then his bike runs out of fuel on the pit entry. No surprise then after all that hard charging. Lorenzo on the other hand bolts off the line in front of all and the pace is soon approaching and stays close to lap record pace all race with the exception of a handful of laps midway through. Several times Lorenzo has to open the taps to keep ahead of a snapping at his heels Marquez. So how come Lorenzo didn't run out of fuel? Please don't tell me it's down to his ultra smooth riding style and steady throttle hand. There is no way Lorenzo's Yamaha was not asking for every drop it had during that race. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
This season I am not convinced Lorenzo's bike is not a better bike by some margin. I've said so here recently. The bike he is on is 'better' than Rossi's only because he has developed it over the past 3 years to suit him, just like Rossi did when he was the lead rider for the team. Every rider has different requirements and they build a bike around what the lead rider wants. if you land in a team half way through that riders tenure then you get what he has developed, not what you want. Rossi/Burgess have spent all year trying to get the bike to suit his harder braking style and still haven't got it cracked. So how come Lorenzo didn't run out of fuel? Please don't tell me it's down to his ultra smooth riding style and steady throttle hand. That is one of the reasons, but there are others too. Lorenzo weighs a lot less than Rossi or Crutchlow, and it is those two that almost always have fuel problems at longer races (Bradley Smith never suffers either and he is a lot lighter than both Rossi and Cal). Also, when you are in front you will use less fuel because you can 'ride your own race' (I hate that commentators term), take the perfect line, ride smoother as don't have to overtake anyone, and can pace the race a lot easier. Lorenzo is the absolute master of banging in fast laps within a fraction of a second of each other for a whole race distance, and that smooth riding helps fuel consumption. Imagine you are driving on the motorway and constantly accelerating and braking. You will use a lot more fuel than the guy driving smoothly and doing a steady 70-80mph without braking or harsh accelaration. It works the same in racing. Towards the end of the race Lorenzo had a decent gap that he could manage every lap, so used less fuel. he wasn't having to try and catch and pass other riders. I keep saying it, but Lorenzo is the perfect rider this year apart from his collarbone breaking crashes, and even then he came back and did exactly what he needed to do to minimise the damage to his championship. That Marquez tries a pass by going deep into a right hand corner on the outside of Lorenzo, with the intention I assume of cutting in and across the apex to get down the inside does this make a racer making such a manoeuvre a lesser rider than the one he's trying to find a way past? That particular manoevre was actually a mistake under braking by Marquez rather than a deliberate overtaking opportunity I think. There was no way that even Marc coudl ride around the outside of a fast rider in that corner without running off track. He made a number of mistakes during the race that opened the gap to Lorenzo, and eventually settled for second best simply because he was unable to win. | ||
| Simond |
I'm a Rossi fan too but don't you think he would be complaining if he thought for a second that he had inferior equipment to Lorenzo? Crutchlow knows that his bike is inferior but also states that if he switched bikes with Lorenzo, Lorenzo would still beat him. These guys have the data and can see where they are losing time. It's not just the single lap time but the fact that he can hit the same spots lap after lap without mistake - something neither Rossi or Crutchlow have done much of this year. He knows that the Honda is faster and that the only hope of victory is a fault free race. If Marquez were to do the same he'd disappear into the distance. As it is Marquez is riding with half an eye on the Championship and the knowledge that any more questionable overtakes could result in sanctions........something that Lorenzo has been playing up to! | ||
| Jaimec |
Simond: You nailed it!! Watching Lorenzo now is like watching Roger Federer in his prime. He never makes a mistake, and just keeps going like a machine. Everyone else just looks "human." | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Lorenzo's pace being so hot I saw Motegi as an exception to all of your explanations Matt. I don't believe he could have saved a litre more fuel than Rossi in those last 7 laps. A litre because that's about a laps worth, and likely what quantity Rossi had used more than Lorenzo. That particular manoevre was actually a mistake under braking by Marquez rather than a deliberate overtaking opportunity I think. There was no way that even Marc coudl ride around the outside of a fast rider in that corner without running off track. Parish said there's another line in that corner which had been used all weekend. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
don't you think he would be complaining if he thought for a second that he had inferior equipment to Lorenzo? Yes - when the honeymoon's over. Wait until next season (when there's no world champ in the team!) Crutchlow knows that his bike is inferior but also states that if he switched bikes with Lorenzo, Lorenzo would still beat him. Indeed, I could not agree more. Crutchlow is not an Alien. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Who's Roger Federer?  Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
I don't believe he could have saved a litre more fuel than Rossi in those last 7 laps. But he did. Rossi ran out of fuel on the slow down lap, Lorenzi did 2 slow down laps to celebrate winning and still didn't run out. Both bikes are topped up to the regulation 21 litres at the start of the race and both take it relatively easy on the out lap to save fuel. Even the team admit that Lorenzo uses less fuel than the other Yamaha riders. Parish said there's another line in that corner which had been used all weekend. Parish may be an ex racer but he has never raced at Motgegi and sometimes says things just to fill empty space. If there was a faster line around that corner then Marquez could have overtaken Lorenzo and tied up the championship at Hondas home track. he didn't because he couldn't make it stick, and never got close enough again to try another attempt. Whichever way you look at it, Lorenzo was just the fastest rider on the day. Things may change at Jerez unless Marquez has been firmly convinced by Honda/Alzamora that he should settle for 4th for the championship. Either way it is going to take something of a miracle for Lorenzo to win the title this year now. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I didn't realise Lorenzo did two slow down laps Matt. Does it not strike you as too large a difference in fuel quantity used if they're burning nearly a litre a lap? It's a certainty Lorenzo must have had a litre, if not two, left over at the finishing line. It does not equate in my head as a mechanic that this level of fuel burn can be so different between what is supposed to be two almost identical bikes. Motegi more than any other race, never mind the laps done and not done after the finish line by either rider, showed both attacked the race in different ways for different reasons and I simply do not see that one racer used all of his fuel and the other went on to parade around for a further two laps. If there was a faster line around that corner then Marquez could have overtaken Lorenzo and tied up the championship at Hondas home track. Without watching iPlayer again and quoting Parish exactly, he was just making the point that some had exploited a different line on that corner was my understanding. Not that there was a faster line. Perhaps an opportunity to do something with it though. Like create an undertake coming off the corner, I don'y know. My point has been, I don't believe it was a mistake by Marquez. It looked to me every bit intentional. Just that there was nothing gained, as like Parish said, he couldn't tip in as Lorenzo was in his way. Jerez could throw up an upset though. It wouldn't be the first time, nor the last no doubt. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
Jerez could throw up an upset though. It wouldn't be the first time, nor the last no doubt. I hope so. Nobody wants to see riders just riding for the points at the last race. Lorenzo needs to win and Marquezx needs to be 4th or better if he does. If either rider falls off it is all over. | ||
| Jaimec |
Now would be the time for Pedrosa to try a stupid overtake on his team mate...  | ||
| Jaimec |
Forgive the term (considering your online moniker) but: It's NOT Rocket Science. Rossi and Crutchlow are both hard on the brakes and heavy on acceleration out of the corner. Combine that with their greater weight and of COURSE they're going to burn up more fuel than the guy who "flows" through the course (and weighs less than either). | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
I agree Jamie, but then read my comments again slowly and digest them. Motegi had Lorenzo pushed hard by Marquez. No matter how smooth he rides the race pace was close to lap record for most laps ridden by him and Marquez. That uses MORE fuel than he might have had Marquez nor been hounding him. So ok he still had fuel left. No problem. He managed another two much slower laps after the race. Then we look at Rossi on an almost identical bike. He too was running a fast pace, and passing, and riding in the manner you state, and he weighs more, and he used more fuel. Fair point. But at this level of precise fuel management, 21 litres for 24 laps is as close as 1 litre per lap. A lap here is just shy of 3 miles. Lorenzo gets 2 more laps (2 ltr's 6 miles) where as Rossi runs out. Logic tells me that's a very big difference in these terms. If Lorenzo is as smooth as a babies bottom with his throttle control, Rossi must be a right clumsy current with his. How the hell did such a clumsy current become the GOAT. Something doesn't add up and I'd like to bet it's down to the electronics, which in some way must be hindering Rossi's bike when compared to Lorenzo's. Their fuel maps must be way different - and why? Rocket in England | ||
| Jaimec |
When Rossi was winning, Dorna didn't have the RIDICULOUS fuel limitations in place. Those were introduced to "cut costs" (though it costs the factories a fortune in development in the off season to get their bikes to run fast with less and less fuel year to year). Since Lorenzo doesn't accelerate as hard out of the turns, or brake as hard going in, he wastes a lot less fuel (and as Matt pointed out, being smaller than Rossi or Crutchlow certainly doesn't hurt either). | ||
| Bads1 |
Rossi 148 lbs. Lorenzo 147 lbs. Crutchlow 152 lbs. | ||
| Bads1 |
Rossi 6 ft. Lorenzo 5 ft 7" Crutchlow 5 ft 7" | ||
| Jaimec |
Another consideration is aerodynamics. Motorcycles on their best days (unless they are Bonneville streamliners) are about as aerodynamic as a brick in flight. The worst part of the aero package is the flesh and blood package carried in the saddle. The more the rider can get himself out of the airstream, the more aerodynamic he is (and the easier time the available fuel has of pushing the entire package at 200+ mph). Watch damned near EVERY rider on the MotoGP grid aping Rossi's habit of hanging their completely unaerodynamic leg out in the breeze entering the turn and then notice that there is ONE rider who conspicuously does NOT do that (just puts his knee out, which is a smaller surface being presented to the wind) and you have another clue as to why Lorenzo uses less gasoline in a race than Rossi or Crutchlow. Leaving the CRTs out of the equation for a moment (they really don't count, anyway), the Yamaha is the WIDEST bike on the grid with it's inline-4 engine. Honda has the narrowest bikes and their two factory riders are amongst the smallest on the grid. Is it any wonder they never seem to have fueling issues? |
