| Author |
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Smiles
| | Posted on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 03:48 am: | 
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*UPDATE*
Before I did anything I took a few pictures of the cable set-up and then yanked them out.
Sadly, I don’t have anything able to test up to 180amperes, so I wasn’t able to perform the starter current draw test. Here’s the information I DO have, though.
Starter, Key Switch, and Ignition relays check out
Starter Relay Test and Starter Current Draw Test are on 5-11. Current draw should be between 140-180amperes.
Starter Test 1 5-4
-Battery passes load test--Good
-System is NOT operational--Not Good
-Audible clicking noise comes from starter solenoid area--Not Good
Starter Test 2: Solenoid Clicks 5-5
-Voltage drop between battery and relay terminal is zero--Good
-Voltage drop between battery positive and starter motor relay while cranking is 4.89VDC--Not Good
-Voltage drop between battery positive and starter battery terminal while cranking is .06VDC--Good
Solution: Repair or replace solenoid (contacts)
Since I was there, I felt I may as well do the next test, too.
Starter Test 3: Relay clicks 5-5
-12V present at solenoid relay terminal on starter when starter button pressed--Good
-Did NOT test to see if motor would turn if jumped (don’t trust myself)--For the best
Solution: (a) Replace solenoid or (b) Test starter motor for opens, shorts, or grounds. Replace or repair starter motor.
Starter Activation Circuits 5-8 and 5-9
Now, I’m not entirely sure where to poke at in order to test the voltage drop for the starter circuit. I know the different parts, but I don’t know where I need to put my DMM, specifically, for each part of the circuit.
Voltage Regulator Bleed Test 7-23
-Trouble light did not come at each pin to voltage regulator--Good
-11.43VDC present at each pin to voltage regulator
-0-32VAC (oscillating) present at each pin to voltage regulator
Milliampere Draw Test 7-23
-Maximum reading should be either 1mA or 1.6mA (can’t remember which)
-1.51mA present--Maybe good, maybe bad
Fuse Pulled--------Reading
Diode---------------Fluctuated, leveled at 1.45mA
Battery--------------0mA
ECM----------------0.86mA
Lights--------------No Change
Key Switch-------1.08mA
Ignition------------No Change
Accessory---------No Change
Brake/Horn-------No Change
Fan-----------------1.29mA
Spare---------------No Change
Spare---------------No Change
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Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 05:53 am: |
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Ok, so now you need a shunt, to check the current draw.
Don't discard your straps as yet,i'v read up a bit on the XB forum and it seems quite a few fella's seem to think it improves matters.
Here's a link that explains both how to make your own and how to use it to get the info needed.
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/s hunt.html |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 07:51 am: |
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Sound theory, but I wish they wouldn't call it a shunt (which implies to me anyway that it bypasses something, in this case the battery).
I wish instead they would call it an inline low resistance resistor (which is what it is).
You also don't need their magic pieces if you have a decent meter that can read low resistance values correctly, the equations are easy to derive. |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 08:42 am: |
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True , the term "shunt" is a misnomer but the issue here is resolution of an on going problem by the simplest means possible.
At this time we need to find what the cause of the seemingly large current drain is.
While it is true that
quote:You also don't need their magic pieces if you have a decent meter that can read low resistance values correctly, the equations are easy to derive.
we are working with a few unknown criteria here.
My intent was to give "Smiles" something to work with that is clearly definitive and straightforward.
I still swear by my Fluke 77 , ancient though it may be , it is still an excellent instrument , but not all meters and users are created equal.
(Message edited by andersonhdj on October 18, 2013) |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 10:13 am: |
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You and me both! I took my very first co-op paycheck straight from Cincinnati Gas and Electric over to Reading (forget the name of the industrial supplier) and bought a brand spanking new in the box Fluke 77. Still have it, still love it.
Like the HP-15C, there is just something special about it. |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 10:52 am: |
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I was lucky enough to be able to have my pick of instruments when i worked in the R&D dept at the state owned telecoms co, my preference being for HP stuff.
Of course , they bought only the best though not usually with all the bells and whistles, but always good quality equipment.
I got one of the first 100Meg digital HP scopes and it was an absolute pleasure to work with. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 04:42 pm: |
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I'm limited to Craftsman for my DMM and ammeter. Since I won't be doing anything beyond working on my bike/truck they fulfill my needs, but I can't deny my jealousy for the multimeters of my friends or their cabinets full of Snap-On and Matco. A few are automotive mechanics, one is diesel.
Here's what I found:
Milliampre Draw Test 7-25
-MAXIMUM reading be 1.6mA
-Reading is 1.51mA
Starter Current Draw Test 5-11
-Typical starter current draw should be between 140-180 amperes
-Starter current draw (at best) is 120 amperes with the starter button held down and only declines with each attempt thereafter
Here's what I can't do (open to correction) since the bike won't start:
Total Current Draw Test 7-25
Current and Voltage Output Test 7-26
Voltage Output Test 7-26
AC Output Check 7-27
Here's what I found:
Stator Check 7-26
-NO continuity across ALL stator sockets and ground--Good
-Resistance across stator sockets (1-2, 2-3, 3-1) should be between 0.1 - 0.3 ohms.
-Resistance across stator sockets (1-2, 2-3, 3-1) increases/decreases between 0.0 ohms and 0.4 ohms--Not good..?
-Resistance remains at 0.0 ohms if stator connector [46] is shaking--Not good..?
From the manual- "If resistance is lower, the stator is damaged and must be replaced."
As far as a bench test is concerned- I have no idea how to do one. I called a few auto part stores, a Harley shop, and a bike shop and was told the voltage regulator had to be in the bike for them to test it, they wouldn't do it, or they only test cars.
(Message edited by Smiles on October 18, 2013) |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 06:47 pm: |
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Ok. so given that you're only seeing a draw of 120 amps and declining with each attempt, like it or not, it points to your battery being unable to deliver the reqd power to the starter motor.
Now there are a number of possible scenario's
(1) the battery is indeed toast.
(2) Somewhere in the feed to your starter motor you have resistance limiting the current availability from your battery.
(3) Your solenoid has developed an internal high resistance / bad / dirty contacts
(4) You have a hot connection between the solenoid and the battery or the starter , ie a loose cable - hot connection.
(5) The VR is sinking current to ground.Check if it feels hot or warm, it should'nt.
Given that, previously the bike seemed to turn over easily and indeed start, i'm still not convinced ,even with load testing, that the battery is'nt below par now.
quote:Resistance across stator sockets (1-2, 2-3, 3-1) should be between 0.1 - 0.3 ohms.
-Resistance across stator sockets (1-2, 2-3, 3-1) increases/decreases between 0.0 ohms and 0.4 ohms--Not good..
This is probably down to tolerance of your DMM
I know there are going to be screams of derision from all and sundry but, everytime you have hooked up the bike to your truck , you have done so across the bike battery - yes?
if so , and with due caution, hook up the bike to the truck without the bike battery connected - ie - disconnect the positive terminal from the battery and take it directly off the truck - DO NOT start the truck , find something to insulate the pos clip from the truck when you conn to the bike , then try and swing her over. If she does, try it at least twice then we MIGHT be able to prove a bad battery!
If you can, try to trace the feed to the starter motor / solenoid and feel the cable for heat build up which would indicate a high resistance.
With the batt disconned check the cable for movement at the lugs , check for nicks / breaks in the cable.
Will have look at the charge cct to see if there are any pointers but essentially the VR is a gate between the batt and the alternator. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 07:35 pm: |
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Every time I hooked my truck up I had jumper cables running from the battery terminals on the truck to the battery terminals on the bike. Don't worry about turning the truck on, I won't even have the keys sitting in the cab when the truck is hooked up to the bike.
I'll go check it out now. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 09:10 pm: |
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I'm uploading a couple videos of the bike trying to start.
Had the cables hooked up two different ways:
One
Both cables disconnected from bike battery terminals
Positive terminal on truck to positive cable on bike
Negative terminal on truck to ground on bike
Two
Positive cable disconnected from bike battery terminal
Negative cable connected to bike battery terminal
Positive terminal on truck to positive cable on bike
Negative terminal on truck to ground on bike
I felt around for heat on the VR, starter, harness, etc. I think (not 100% on this) there was an increase in temperature on the voltage regulator and the motor terminal of the starter. I also noticed a bit of corrosion on the underside of the nut for the motor terminal.
The video is taking a very long time to upload. I'll post the url once it's up. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Friday, October 18, 2013 - 09:11 pm: |
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Here's a link to the first video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9sgxxrbjes |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 05:36 am: |
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Ok. Was this vid of the bike hooked up to the truck batt with the bike batt isolated on the positive??
Next thing to do is a current draw test while on the truck battery.
If the result is the same , it clears the battery issue, it proves a problem into the solenoid and or starter.
Given that the starter does turn albeit slowly, it is unlikely the solenoid is at issue.
It should be possible, for the sake of the test , to isolate the charging system completely , but i have yet to look at the diagrams, it was late last nite and i could'nt see straight anymore, will have a look this afternoon, i think we're about 6 hrs ahead of you.
The thing is, irrespective of the amount of power available , the bike system will only draw what it requires.
The corrosion on the starter terminal could well be an issue. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 03:31 pm: |
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The video was of the bike cables being disconnected from both terminals. The reading I have from the bike being hooked up to the truck battery was hard to read since the numbers were all over the place.
At the beginning of the attempted start it would be at 180-200 amperes and dip to 110-140 amperes at the end of the attempted start. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 03:40 pm: |
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Is it possible to hook a cable up to the starter from a different battery? |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 05:19 pm: |
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I think you should pull the starter motor and check it out, that initial instantaneous current draw is over the top.
What i don't understand is the fact that in previous vids the bike has cranked over ok.
I don't believe that a cable from a different battery will yield any better result at this point.
I think it would be better to give the starter a clean bill of health so as to discount it as a factor.
Could be a new set of brushes and bushes are in order at this point.
I think given the figures we've gleaned from the 2 tests indicate that your battery is borderline as well. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 06:58 pm: |
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Went over the grounds and cleaned them off, again. Apparently, this did the trick because it started right up without a single clicking noise. The problem, though, is it wouldn't idle at all.
Pulled the plugs and they were covered in black wet stuff (assuming oil/gas). Put in new ones from the Harley dealership and it idled perfectly for 3-5 seconds...and died.
I'm thinking the electrical problem of the battery being drained ridiculously quickly may or may not be gone and the current issue is the plugs becoming fouled so quickly.
I'll be pulling the plugs currently in the bike to check them out. I just wanted to get this information out here as soon as possible.
Here's a picture of the old plugs vs. the new one:
I'll post a link to a video of the bike starting as soon as it'll load. |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 07:08 pm: |
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Poor grounding would certainly cause issues!
Good call! |
Smiles
| | Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2013 - 08:26 pm: |
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Pulled off the plugs, they resemble the ones in the picture of my previous post.
I'll post a link to the video as soon as it's done. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 02:39 pm: |
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The video has finally made it up...I have no idea why it took so long...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4S7Mi4n2CQ
It's great to hear the bike running again! Even if it's for a short amount of time. |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2013 - 04:43 pm: |
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Sounds good! Is there any reason , aside from the idle, why you can't ride her around the block?
A good run will do wonders to burn the plugs clean and she may even settle down! |
Smiles
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 05:25 pm: |
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I didn't ride her around last night because it was getting dark and didn't know want to risk it. It appears it's settled down A LOT-
Rode around the block and it died on me a couple times. Once I let off the throttle it was rough (chugging back and forth) and took some time to realize I had pulled back on the throttle again.
Decided to keep riding since it progressively smoothed out after riding a few miles. After five or so miles it was acting as though nothing was wrong! It idled, it responded to changes in throttle instantly, and there was nothing that felt out of place!
That burning smell was present, but I may have figured that problem out. I noticed a pool of fork oil on the wheel after I parked it. The smell was definitely there once I put the sidestand down, but went away after a few minutes. I noticed fork oil on the right side (throttle side) of the engine and the front wheel fairing.
Here's where I'm at now:
1) It runs perfectly after being warmed up- I'm waiting for the engine to cool down to see if things will be different.
2) What does burning fork oil smell like? I'm guessing it smells bad.
3) There still seems to be a bit of play in the throttle cable. Could this be linked to an idle issue? Or should I disregard this?
(Message edited by Smiles on October 21, 2013) |
Smiles
| | Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 06:06 pm: |
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Forgot to mention that I felt the voltage regulator and along some of the wiring. The VR felt barely warm after a 30-40 minute ride and I couldn't feel any warm/hot spots along any of the wiring. |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 08:34 am: |
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Hey man! Cool beans!! 
I'm glad to hear you got her up and running!!
Burning oil smells bad and i can't really describe it beyond saying it tends to smell "hot".
You actually want a bit of play in the throttle cables , about 5 - 10mm, to prevent the engine from accelerating when the bars are locked full left or right, as in when you're trying to maneuver tight turns.
I would try and put some miles on her, what i have always done with a rebuild is to go around the block at ever increasing distance till i am completely happy that she's not going to fail on me, not that i ever expect them to, just for my own peace of mind i guess.
About the regulator, once you've got her settled, ie, idling ok etc, do a charge test using the "Shunt" as described in the link.
It's basically exactly the same procedure except that you're now looking for a much lower charging figure rather than a large discharge / draw.
Your dmm should change from a negative indication symbol in the display , to either a positive symbol or no symbol.
Do not forget to take into account the lighting draw when you take the reading.
It might be as well too, to find out how or why the headlight stays on when the fuse is pulled, does'nt seem right, my 05 goes out when i pull the fuse. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2013 - 06:40 pm: |
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Smell
That smell only comes around when there's fork oil on the engine. If the bike sits still and idles, there's no smell.
Throttle Cable
Now, I know there's supposed to be some play in the throttle cable, but I just felt like there was some "extra" play in the throttle cable. More than what was there before. I'm probably just nitpicking at everything after all that's been going on with this bike.
Charging
I plan on testing the charging system as soon as I'm able to. At this moment I'm just making a checklist of everything I need to do, once I get some free time.
Battery
Now, I put in a different (old) battery into the bike. The old battery is what got the bike running, and is what I currently have in it. I tried starting with the new (HD) battery in, but all that came of it was that machine gun click. I'm thinking the battery isn't as good as it was when Harley load tested it. For now, though, I'm keeping the old battery in there.
Mileage
I'm slowly putting miles on it, but the weather isn't allowing me to put on as many as I would like! I rode to my university yesterday and clocked about 30 miles. Thirteen to 15 miles in to the trip is when everything started to smooth out.
Lights
I read some people have done a modification where both headlights are turned on when the high-beam is turned on. With this modification, the low-beam gets moved to the accessories circuit/accessories fuse. When I turn on the high-beam, both headlights come on, so I'm guessing this is what was done to the wiring harness before I got it. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2013 - 09:11 pm: |
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*UPDATE*
Smell
When I performed the charging system tests, the smell wasn't present. My guess is that there was no oil on the engine due to the bike being stationary, therefore, there could be no smell since no oil had been splattered on the engine
Charging System
*Before I go off on what I found, let it be known: I do not have a load induction pickup as specified in the service manual. All of the preceding findings were done with an ammeter and multimeter. I don't know if this affects the results of the tests.*
Tested the charging system (it idles like a dream!) and here's what I found:
Voltage Regulator Bleed Test 7-25
Trouble light did NOT come on
Milliampre Draw Test 7-25
MAXIMUM reading should be 1.6mA
--Milliampre drawn: 1.51mA
Total Current Draw Test 7-25
--Current drawn: 14.4 ADC
Current and Voltage Output Test 7-26
Current output should be 34-38 amps
--Current output: 18.4 ADC - Never went above 22 ADC, even with RPM increase
Current Output should exceed Current Draw by 3.5 amps minimum
Current Draw: 14.4 ADC
Current Output: 18.4 ADC
--Exceeded by 4 amps
Voltage Output Test 7-26
Voltage to battery should not be more than 15 VDC
--Voltage to battery: 14 VDC
Stator Check 7-26
Should be no continuity across all stator sockets and ground
Resistance across stator sockets should be between 0.1-0.3 ohms
--No continuity present across all stator sockets and ground
--Resistance across all stator sockets: between 0.1-0.3 ohms
AC Output Check 7-27
AC Output should be 32-40 volts (approx. 16-20 volts per 1000 RPM)
--AC Output: (1-2) 34 VAC, (2-3) 34 VAC, (1-3) 34 VAC
Following the flowcharts on 7-20 and 7-21, this is what I came up with:
Voltage Regulator Inspection - PASS
Voltage Regulator Bleed Test - PASS
Milliampre Draw Test - PASS
Total Current Draw Test - PASS
Current and Voltage Output Test - FAIL
Stator Check - PASS
AC Output Check - PASS
Solution: Replace Voltage Regulator
Lights
Pulled the ACC fuse and the lights went out. I don't have a problem with the modification. I think it's quite nice. |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 03:31 am: |
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You replaced the VR previously, assumedly with a new unit.
quote:I do not have a load induction pickup as specified in the service manual. All of the preceding findings were done with an ammeter and multimeter. I don't know if this affects the results of the tests.*
Given your readings , without the spec'd load device , i don't think you have a problem here, your making 4 amps in excess of your current draw.
I would leave well enough alone and just enjoy the bike. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2013 - 02:50 pm: |
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It was a Voltage Regulator off of an XB9SX parts bike. The bike went down pretty hard, which is why I haven't been fully trusting of everything coming off of it.
When it comes to electrical systems I'm still learning quite a bit. If you say it's good I won't argue.
Now, it's been my plan for a VERY long time to enjoy this bike. I just need to find the right day that doesn't have a high of 35 haha
On an different note, the HD dealership I got the battery from has basically told me I'm S.O.L. since the battery is a month out of the warranty. Any suggestions of a quality battery for when the currently used one dies out? |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2013 - 02:09 am: |
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I assume that's 35 deg F - right???
On the battery, we generally only see stuff made in the Far east.
I would try and find European or American if you can.
It's a bit harsh to drill you , one month out of warrantee , but then that's HD. |
Smiles
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2013 - 05:50 am: |
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Yes, Fahrenheit. If it was 35 C I wouldn't be complaining about riding in that at all!
I went back to HD and spoke with someone else. They were more lenient than the last person and sold me a new battery for $70. It wasn't the greatest hit to my wallet, but it could've been worse.
Today is supposed to be a miraculously sunny 68 F day. Already made plans with a few others to go out and abuse the weather while we still can.
Anderson I gotta thank you for putting up with all these posts helping me out. There were a few times I felt like forking over my card to the dealership and allowing them to take care of it, but I'm quite happy I didn't. Again- thank you.
Special thanks to Doz, Sparky, Hogs, Froggy, Jdcolcol, Ezblast, and Reepicheep for taking the time to pop-in and help out, as well. |
Andersonhdj
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2013 - 12:58 pm: |
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My pleasure! It was good to at last solve the mystery and get your ride running!
We're going into summer here and 35C is unbearable!
Feb is our hottest month reaching 36C some days, we've just had our first round of summer storms , huge amounts of rain and galeforce wind.
Fortunately our winters are mild and one can ride year round.
Good to hear you got the battery sorted.
Ride safe! |
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2003 XB9S Multiple Problems
