| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
Lorenzo did not ride in such a style it was obvious to see he was close to the limit every turn, unlike Marquez who does. I remember when Lorenzo first arrived in 250GP, he was out of control for most of the time and looked like he was just planning where the scene of his upcoming accident would be every lap. When he moved up into MotoGP he crashed spectacularly on a regular basis and beat himself up pretty badly in his first season. The difference with Marquez is that he has only crashed in a race once all year. Every other finish has been on the podium. If you watched this weekend's pretty processional race at Sepang the only part that had me on the edge of my seat was the brief battle between Lorenzo and Marquez. Lorenzo was the first to try a 'dodgy' overtake and ran into the side of Marquez's bike in trying to squeez up the inside where there was no room. Marquez then did a very clean overtake up the inside of Lorenzo, but Jorge refused to give ground even though Marquez was on the inside and was clearly in front and on a faster bike. The result.....Jorge almost ran onto the grass trying to keep alongside Maraquez(on the outside) when he really should have backed off and kept his powder dry for later. What did Jorge do? Shook his head dramatically at the cameras, knowing that race direction would be scrutinising every move by Marquez with a magnifying glass! Was he trying to get Marquez another penalty knowing that the only way to beat him would be to get him penalised? | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Well, for the first time this season I saw a more normal Marquez with a Honda which gave him a distinct advantage over the Yamaha's at this track. But he couldn't catch Pedrosa. Now whilst Marquez might be the latest greatest, there are other riders who given his Honda could do equally as well me thinks. Not everything is what it seems. I saw a very beatable Marquez this weekend, save for the Honda's speed advantage. Lorenzo looked to me like he was showing Marquez he's not the only one who can use dirty tricks was all. As for another penalty. Well what a fooker. Three riders jump the start and their penalty makes any points punishment dished out to Marquez look like a telling off from mummy; with a glass of milk and a biscuit afterward. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
If you look at other penalties dished out at Sepang they really don't make much sense. Maveric Vinales was penalised one penalty poing for....deliberately elbowing jack Miller and riding across him on the run to the finish line. Pol Espagaro was also given just one penalty point for impeding riders in the warm up and then carrying out a practice start in the wrong area, even though this rule has only just been introduced and was explained in great detail to ALL riders and teams following the horror crash in Moto2 practice at Silverstone. In my opinion both riders above should have received much stiffer penalties, which were far worse than Marquez was guilty of at Aragon, being deliberate acts, not accidental contact. In Vinales case it should have been at least a one race ban or loss of points (I remember Johan Zarco being excluded for a similar but less deliberate elbow incident). Where was Lorenzo's penalty for running into the side of Marquez at Sepang (a very similar 'brush' to that Marquez was docked one point for at Aragon)? Looks like it depends on who you are as to what you get penalised for? | ||
| Pwnzor |
Looks like it depends on who you are as to what you get penalised for?  | ||
| Simond |
I agree that deliberate actions such as those you've mentioned should be heavily punished (as should Marquez's crimes at Philip Island and Silverstone) but still consider minor contact such as between Marquez/Pedrosa and Lorenzo/Pedrosa to be racing incidents. Penalise those and we'll have even more dull racing. I noticed that Neil Spalding was suggesting that the 25 point penalty for Honda was an arrangement that minimised the penalty to Marques. This seems unlikely to me. He did however make the point that if the problem with Honda's traction control was so dangerous, why wasn't it picked up in scrutineering? I hope they checked the systems of all other bikes after Aragon to see that none had the same problem as the Honda. | ||
| Jaimec |
At the time the incident became known, nearly all reports indicated that both Ducati and Yamaha have redundant systems, so that would make a similar incident nearly impossible with either of those two brands. Only Honda had a single, unprotected cable, and even worse, had a fallback condition of "No Traction Control" when it was cut. Honda has come up with a temporary measure of putting a CF protector over the part of the cable that was cut by Marquez. | ||
| Trojan |
Looks like Nicky is back on a Honda for sure next year (although how competitive the 'production' bike really is remains to be seen). I think they will probably run at the back of the customer prototypes, so he'll be dicing with Dovi and Cal on the Ducatis in all liklihood (at least until Gigi gets the Ducati sorted) ! It will be interesting to compare Nicky and Scott Redding on the same bikes though. http://www.motomatters.com/news/2013/10/15/aspar_d ecides_nicky_hayden_to_ride_a_hon.html | ||
| Simond |
What about the CRT bikes? Were all bikes impounded and checked? I still think it ridiculous to retrospectively penalise a team for something that does not contravene any rule after a freak accident. They've corrected the problem and that should be an end to it. | ||
| Bads1 |
Matt who do you think his teammate will be?? | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Collecting points for a punishment tally later is stupid. The only way punishment will work in racing is if it is dished out as and when and has immediate effect. The idea of having officials watch and rule over a race, or full event, is surely exactly that. Lingering threats; what is there purpose? To slow down a racer or make them ride less aggressively. I can see that working - not! Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
Matt who do you think his teammate will be?? Initially while Aspar were on the Aprilia trail every finger was pointing firmly to Eugene Laverty joining Hayden, as he is an Aprilia employee and has been dropped in favour of Melandri in the Aprilia WSb team (WHY is anyones guess!). However now things are very much more muddy. We don't even know if Aspar will run both riders on Hondas yet, or if one will have an ART/Aprilia and hayden the sole Honda. My hunch is probably Yonny Hernandez or Hiroshi Aoyama. Neither have set the world on fire in MotoGP but hernandez is south american and Aoyama is a Honda favourite and may be 'imposed' on the team. There are a number of other possibles but I think they must fancy themselves as favourites for the second seat. Although.....Laverty could still squeeze it if he can bring money/sponsorship/Dorna money with him. | ||
| Trojan |
The idea of having officials watch and rule over a race, or full event, is surely exactly that. Lingering threats; what is there purpose? To slow down a racer or make them ride less aggressively. I can see that working - not! Especially when everyone knows that Marquez is on double secret probation, so all eyes are firmly set on his behaviour. Lorenzo has already tried the post race interview slander and the old head shaking trick when Marquez got close at Sepang (although developed amnesia when asked about his dodgy overtake which did result in actual contact!), which I can only uinterpret as a dig at race control for not punishing Marquez again. Certain riders (like Lorenzo has) will break out their dirty tricks manual and do the motorcycle equivalent of the soccer dive in the penalty area if they know they can't win by fair means, so marquez really just needs to keep his head down and ride as normal). I respect Lorenzo enormously but this incident has blotted his copy book this year  | ||
| Jaimec |
Lorenzo is probably still steamed that Marquez knocked him off the track and off of the top step earlier this year without any sort of a penalty. If you wear Repsol colors, I guess you can get away with damned near anything. Yamaha needs to get a powerful SPANISH sponsor so they can flaunt the rules too. (Message edited by jaimec on October 16, 2013) | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Matt, I have to say I am a little surprised by some of your recent views supporting Marquez. I too read MCN today and to me Lorenzo's headshaking supports what he said post race. Lorenzo states, and we all could see it on TV, that Marquez ran Lorenzo out towards the grass which meant there was no choice but for Lorenzo to get off the throttle or he would have been alongside Marquez and likely both bikes touching. Had Lorenzo not backed off it's very likely he would have had some handling upset, that had they have been touching, both riders could have been involved in a serious off. I am, as I said, surprised you of all pundits don't see that? So the head shake, and post race comment, support Lorenzo's opinion that Marquez's overtake was not with Lorenzo's safety taken into consideration. Lorenzo does also state his undertake on Marquez was at least on the track and there was a gap for him to go into. Yes I think it's a little disingenuous of Lorenzo to explain his move when we all know the truth is he had every intention of barging into Marquez should he not realise he was up the inside, which he didn't (and likely couldn't have). Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
Lorenzo states, and we all could see it on TV, that Marquez ran Lorenzo out towards the grass which meant there was no choice but for Lorenzo to get off the throttle or he would have been alongside Marquez and likely both bikes touching. Had Lorenzo not backed off it's very likely he would have had some handling upset, that had they have been touching, both riders could have been involved in a serious off. I am, as I said, surprised you of all pundits don't see that? That isn't actually the true story of 'the' overtake, and you have to look back to the actual corner to see that Marquez already had at least a wheel ahead of Lorenzo as they passed through the apex of the corner. As they ran out of the corner, with Marquez clearly ahead, Lorenzo could have accepted that he was overtaken and followed Marquez out of the corner in line astern and with plenty of space left for both. There really is only one fast line out of that corner, and that leads to the edge of the track on the exit. Lorenzo would have known that better than anyone. However, Jorge kept the throttle pinned in an attempt to outgun Marquez out of the corner on the outside and regain his position (no chance against a factory Honda!). It was therefore Lorenzo that put his bike in to a potentially dangerous situation and nearly ran out of track, not Marquez trying to force him off track (remember Marquez was already in front). As my old dad used to say...the trhottle works both ways. It is hardly akin to the Biaggi/Rossi elbow barging incidents of yore that forced Vale off track completely, or even the Moto3 incident at Sepang involving Vinales and Miller. Lorenzo only had 1/2 a gap to go into when he ran up the inside and into the side of Marquez. The rest of the gap was made by the hard contact, and I really don't see the difference between this attempted overtake (which was deliberate) and the contact at Aragon between Marquez and Pedrosa, which was after all pretty accidental, yet resulted in penalty points being issued. I'm not blinded by Marquez's arrival and speed, and I know he has pulled off some oputrageous moves in the past, but this wasn't one of them. Lorenzo is playing playground politics and trying to focus more attention on Marc to attempt to get the crucial penalty point he needs to start at the back of the grid (as if that would make much difference!). Lorenzo just needs to man up and admit he is beaten this year instead of moaning. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Matt, watch it on BBCi player. 54.50 the helicopter shot shows both bikes coming off the corner. 54.51 Marquez is up on the red and white lines and it looks very much to me like he didn't need to be - other than because he hung Lorenzo out wide, which is why he is there. That is why Lorenzo shook his head I believe. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
But the line that Marquez took was the 'normal' line for that corner, so he can't be blamed for doing something that every rider every lap did (unless they were off line due to overtaking). The normal racing line would take a rider out to the rumble strip every lap, regardless of who/what else was there. The point is that Lorenzo was done and dusted before the exit of the corner, and Marquez was in front. It was up to Lorenzo to then either adapt his line so that he didn't run into Marquez or onto the grass, or to slow down. He chose to do neither and decided to try and keep pace with marquez on the exit, knowing he would be on the outside and so puched onto the rumble strip at least at that point. Lorenzo has been racing long enough to know this, but blamed Marquez anyway. I assume he can only have done this because that would focus race Direction on Marcs riding once more and possibly end up with a penalty (which would of course advanatge Lorenzo more than anyone else at this point). There is a very good expert opinion by Matt Oxley in MotorSport here that explains things much clearer than me  http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/race/motogp-race /lorenzo-vs-marquez/ | ||
| Trojan |
Hunch correct..... the following from David Emmett at Motomatters.com Who will be the second rider alongside Hayden is as yet unknown, but the strong paddock rumor at the moment is that it will be Hiroshi Aoyama. Aoyama has a strong relationship with Honda, after winning the final 250cc world championship for them in what was a vital coup against their rivals Aprilia. Having a Japanese rider on the grid is important to both Honda and especially Dorna, and with Takaaki Nakagami set to stay in Moto2 for another season, Aoyama has strong backing from Dorna. Colombian rider Yonny Hernandez' name is still being bandied about, but he looks like being an outsider for the seat. Hernandez could end up at Blusens, taking the place of Aoyama at the Spanish team. The one thing they seem to forget is that since his 250 win Aoyama has been pretty usless and off the radar. The only reason he will get the job is because Honda want a Japanese rider. Shame really as there are much better riders clamouring for decent rides (again....) that are far more deserving based on recent results. If they really want a japanese rider then Nakagami should move up from Moto2 and would be a much better choice for the future. | ||
| Simond |
Good article from Matt Oxley. Great quote: "Marc rides very hot,” said Cal Crutchlow at Sepang. “But some riders make a controversy of it for no other reason than they’re annoyed they’re getting beaten; simple as that.” | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Matt not to drag this on because it's worthless anyway really, but I can't agree. As Lorenzo stated, Marquez kept opening up his line and that's what I believe it looks like on TV, and that's why I believe Lorenzo shook his head. It wouldn't make a difference to anything but the suggesting that Lorenzo is seeking to place a penalty at Marquez by shaking his head, now that is something I find myself questioning at this point. Thus it's important to see if Lorenzo is justified in stating Marquez kept opening up, as it would appear to support his head shaking and not the more subterfuge option you've presented. As much as you may have a point, I don't think the head shaking is part and parcel of it. Rocket in England | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Marc rides very hot,” said Cal Crutchlow at Sepang. “But some riders make a controversy of it for no other reason than they’re annoyed they’re getting beaten; simple as that.” Crutchlow can say that as he's not getting beat at the sharp end himself. Such a statement is somewhat self fulfilling, self prophesying isn't it. Rocket in England | ||
| Trojan |
Lorenzo quickest in both morning and afternoon sessions today, but with the top 6 all under the old lap record it is going to be close in qualifying methinks  Likewise in Moto 2, with all 3 championship contenders in the top 3. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
Sugar, I forgot there's another this weekend. I blame it on this bloody cold I caught this week. Something to cheer me up then Rocket in England | ||
| Bads1 |
Lets not talk colds. Holy Cows I've had one also that's been a pain. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Mandatory pit stop, my ass.... because the tire manufacturer can't guarantee safety after ten laps? What kind of shit is this? Are they EVER able to guarantee safety? What a load of shit, Marc still leads by 18 points and if anything I think it will serve as motivation for him, and false hopes for the rest. Wait and see. | ||
| Aeholton |
Unfortunate for Marquez, but it's not like the mandatory stop was only for him. Other riders managed to make their stop and change. Huge mental error! | ||
| Pwnzor |
Huge mental error! By this, I assume you mean a huge mental error made by everybody on two of the teams competing. He made the stop... in my opinion this rule is very poorly worded... No rider was 'permitted to make more than 10 laps' without pitting for their spare bike, due to the tyre safety concerns, the new rules adding: 'In normal circumstances this means that the rider must change machine only at the end of lap 9 or lap 10'. Jorge Lorenzo, Marquez and Repsol Honda team-mate Dani Pedrosa were nose-to-tail when the pit stops began: Pedrosa on lap nine and leader Lorenzo on lap ten, but Marquez remained out. A Honda statement read: 'The team made a mistake, understanding [Marquez] was able to complete ten [full] laps and come back in before completing lap eleven, and the 'box' instruction on his pit board was therefore one lap late.” source ...later in the same article: Gresini's Bryan Staring made the same error as Marquez and was also disqualified, while Colin Edwards tweeted: "Not happy with the [Marc Marquez black flag] decision. First time running this scenario & disqualified. We r not mathematicians... let us race & F off." | ||
| Trojan |
One word sums up the weekend.....shambles. If anything they should just discount the points for everyone from this round and move on. Every single aspect of the race was a joke, from the ongoing tyre farce and shortening of the races to the moving of the pit lane exit that was almost bound to end in a collision (and did). Either DORNA/FIM and the tyre companies get their act together or the championship will just descend into farce. If this was F1 people in pretty high places would be looking for new jobs on Monday morning. Shame about Scott Redding breaking his wrist. Unless he can ride next weekend (very doubtful) then his championship is effectively over. Congrats to Gino Rea for getting pints in 14th place. Somebody HAS to give him a ride for next year now surely? Move on...next round please. | ||
| Rocket_in_uk |
As much as it were a bit of a shambles the racing held up as good as anything else we've seen this season. Marquez made the mistake. End of. No one is to blame no matter how much we think the rule or the events leading up to it were unnecessary. Marquez came in after ten laps when the rule clearly stated not to. I'm content as it puts the championship (which he'll still likely win hands down) closer to a realistic seasons worth of results from all still in the battle for the title. I find it interesting these past three races how much quicker Lorenzo's Yamaha is. Tyres and skills aside, Crutchlow and Smith are too close to Rossi but never near Lorenzo. And I'm sorry but Lorenzo is not that good that it's him alone that's making the difference. Rocket in England | ||
| Pwnzor |
the rule clearly stated not to The rule clearly stated not to complete more than ten laps before pitting. |
