| Author | Message | ||
     Jaimec |
On the other hand, do you remember how BIG Marco was compared to the other riders? And that factory Honda was built around their midget all-star... | ||
| Trojan |
Agreed, but he did improve in his second year.... Some riders have simply failed to meet the grade when moving up from 250/Moto2 to MotoGP for a variety of reasons...Tony Elias was hopeless when he came back after winning the Moto2 series in 2010, Hiroshi Ayoma never got to grips with a MotoGP bike either. Bradley Smith was just under 2 tenths slower than Bradl during the MOnday test at Jerez. given Bradl's experience and arguably a better bike than Bradley has, I think the boy is making a decent fist of it so far. The problem is that we tend to judge all this years rookies by Marquez standards, which isn't really fair. I also read to day that Bradley Smith had an earlier version of the Yamaha frame than even Cal has had so far, and only got the same frame as Cal during the Mondaty test. If this is the case then bradley has been running around on effectively a 2 year old Yamaha frame so far  Give him time. | ||
| Jaimec |
Back to the "headline" of the race. Wise of Lorenzo to hold his tongue until the heat of the moment passed. Also for taking responsibility for not realizing how close Marquez was, and not riding accordingly. Marquez was also wise beyond his years to recognize why Jorge avoided him the way he did in Parc Ferme and on the podium. Wait till the adrenaline and emotions have died down when he can think rationally again. I do believe that although Lorenzo was pissed at Marquez, he was even MORE pissed at himself for allowing that to even happen. I'm trying to imagine how a certain Aussie moaner might've reacted to that same situation. Oh wait, we don't have to imagine... we can just REMEMBER Laguna Seca! | ||
| Trojan |
Lorenzo really did have brain fade at the last corner if he thought that Marquezx wasn't going to at least try a last ditch run up the inside. It has happened so often at that corner in the past (Rossi/Gibernau, Doohan/Criville) and even Jorge has done it at that corner in Aprilia 125 racing (when he was about 10 years old!). It is the classic corner for a last lap lunge and Lorenzo left far too much room on the inside to allow it to happen. Maybe if he had braked slightly earlier he could have allowed Marquez to overshoot and cut inside him to take the position, but hindsight is always good isn't it Marquez has shown he is going to be serious and constant threat this year though, which has to be good for the series. On a different note....it is rumoured that Cal Crutchlow is at the top of th elist for the Suzuki ride when/if they retunr to MotoGP in 2014. Seeing as his ride has pretty much already been stolen by Pol Espagaro it would seem to be Cal's best and only hope of a factory ride, and maybe even as number one rider too I would of course suggest Scott Redding as his wing man. | ||
| Jaimec |
I would've thought Ben Spies would've been Suzuki's number one choice... but it looks like his career is just about OVER, unfortunately. | ||
| Trojan |
I would've thought Ben Spies would've been Suzuki's number one choice... Not on recent form it wouldn't! Ben was just awful last year even accounting for mechanical gremlins. Randy De Puniet is still in the frame for Suzuki though as he is their 'official' test rider. | ||
| Bads1 |
Heress my thoughts. If Crutchlow gets the ride cool.But if cardenas dominates and wins AMA Superbike first time out..... he may have a chance to go where he wanted. | ||
| Trojan |
But if cardenas dominates and wins AMA Superbike first time out..... he may have a chance to go where he wanted. I would very much doubt that Suzuki would return to full time MotoGP competiton with a rider that has never ridden on the tracks or on a GP bike. Maybe as a second rider they may risk an established Moto2 rider, but I can't see any 'outisiders' gettting a look in for what will effectively be a factory ride. The only fly in the ointment is that Suzuki have been told that they can't have a new slot on the grid, so must get one of the established teams to effectively front their new factory team. This is likely to be either Gresini or Aspar, and they will both want to have their choice of rider on at least one bike (Bautista or Espagaro probably). Either way I don't think anyoen will break the established Spanish stranglehold on the grid just yet. The only other team with the resources to probably step up and run the Suzuki operation would be Mark VDS from Moto2, and they woudl also want to keep one fo their established team riders (Scott Redding probably) | ||
| Bads1 |
Matt they have done it many times in history. nicky hayden the first to come to mind. | ||
| Bads1 |
Btw Matt.... Cardenas spent part of his carreer in Europe . You say never on a GP Bike or the tracks?? He rode 250 World Championships in 2005-2006. Also before that he rode for Spanish teams. remember.... Suzuki just kicked the number 2 in points and left him rideless(Young) so they could have Cardenas. | ||
| Jaimec |
Sad to say, but... if Ben couldn't win on the factory Yamaha (other than that one time in Assen), then unless he gets a factory Honda ride, he has no shot in hell of ever winning the World Championship. And considering Repsol's hold over the factory Honda team, Ben has a better shot of replacing Jorge Lorenzo than he does of ever replacing Pedrosa or Marquez. In other words, he's done. He's never going to win the MotoGP World Championship. His best shot was last year, and he blew it. | ||
| Trojan |
Matt they have done it many times in history. nicky hayden the first to come to mind The operative word in that sentence is 'history'. The AMA sadly isn't what it once was and GP teams are hardly falling over themselves sending talents scouts to grab the latest AMA hotshot any longer. Other than young lads such as Cameron Beaubier & PJ Jacobsen (who have also raced in Europe with some success) I can't see any of gthe current US riders getting a foothold in GP racing any time soon I'm afraid. They need to get into Moto3/Moto2 at a young age in order to get noticed, and even the 'back door' entry point of WSB is lacking US riders right now, so they aren't going to come from there either. I think there will be a lack of US riders in MotoGP for some time until they get a competitive domestic Moto3/Moto2 series or grasp the nettle and run an AMA funded team at world level as the Italian federation has done (The German federation has done the same but for some reason have no german rdiers in the team!). We have a few UK riders in MotoGP right now, but iof you look how they got there almost all of them (with the exception of Cal) progressed through the Spanish 125 series first, and not through domestic championships. Scott Redding,Bradley Smith, Danny Kent and Danny Webb have hardly ever raced in the UK and got into MotoGP through the Dorna sanctioned Spanish CEV series. Lastly, Cardenas may have spent some time in Europe racing 250GP etc, but if he didn't attract teams then he is unlikely to now by racing in AMA/DMG. | ||
| Bads1 |
Matt sorry I have to dissagree. If moto gp starts to lack American riders... then in due time they will lack attendance at the 3 American rounds as spextators. PJ jacobson or even cameron couldnt beat cardenas when they were in Sportbike. Theres really nothing wrong with AMA other then economy. Its better racing then has been in many years. | ||
| Trojan |
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. There will be manufacturers looking at market share etc and choosing riders by nationality (Ducati is a prime example this year) but in the end they will want riders who can win GP's for them. This means (under the current system) that most riders will come up through Moto3, Moto2 and then into MotoGP. Unless US riders actually realise that they are going to have to work in Europe (and sometimes pay for rides) then there will be very few opportunities for them in GP racing for a long while,regardless of talent. The last US rider to move directly from AMA to MotoGP was Nicky Hayden remember and that was eons ago in racing terms. Team managers are under increasing pressure to produce results quickly these days, and the days of having a 'learning year' to learn the machine and circuits etc are getting more rare. Riders are expected to arrive in MotoGP and perform well from the first race, so teams want riders who know the circuits and the systems so they have less of a learning curve. Like it or lump it, the ONLY way to get this experience is to race at world level in Moto3/Moto2, and the only way these days to get a ride in those championships is to come up through the Spanish CEV series (or have a very rich sponsor willing to buy you a team place). As for the 3 US rounds, one is already suspect long term (Indy) and attendance is not that great at the others compared to some Euro rounds. Domestic TV coverage isn't great either, so DORNA may eventually decide that they can make more elsewhere. If there are no US riders and attendance/coverage drops then these rounds could easily be dropped from the calandar in favour of more Asian/South American/European rounds. It has happened before, and there are plenty of countries and circuits willing to host a GP in future and pay heavily for the priviledge, even if they have no riders from their country taking part. AMA riders may have more chance of getting a WSB ride than a GP one in future, but they still need to get a ride in Europe first to get noticed. The sad fact is that the AMA/DMG has slipped down in stature in the eyes of GP teams and managers, to the point where they are no longer actively looking for new talent from this area. There may well be very talented riders currently racing in AMA/DMG capable of performing well at GP level, but unless they move to a European race series they simply won't get noticed. PJ Jacobsen has had more interest and international press coverage since riding in BSB than he ever got in AMA/DMG racing, despite not winning a BSB Superbike race yet, and teams will notice that. Jacobsen and Beaubier were both rookies when they raced Cardenas in Sportbike. I think they would fare much better now somehow. | ||
| Bads1 |
Matt your right we will have to agree to disagree. What country has 3 round???? Dorna isn't doing well and either are the manufactures or there wouldn't be CRT bikes in the mix. Losing the US market is not something they would like or want to lose. Jacobsen and Beaubier were both rookies when they raced Cardenas in Sportbike. I think they would fare much better now somehow. Actually PJ had a couple years.But neither could find work here. Talented yes but not a cardenas... a Westby.... a Herrin. | ||
| Trojan |
But neither could find work here Or there were better prospects elsewhere? Just becaue riders sign to race outside the US doesn't mean they couldn't get a ride there at all. 3 rounds in a very large country doesn't guarantee anything, as DORNA are not averse to moving things around when it suits them or dropping rounds if the circut doesn't pay up the required deposits. If the US rounds don't make money for them or don't want to pay the huge fees involved they will be dropped like a hot rock pretty sharpish. Spain hosts 4 rounds, and supplies the majority of riders and teams in Moto3, Moto2 and MotoGP, and of course DORNA is Spanish, so they have a bit of a cushion despite the Spanish economy being in the toilet (although they still had more spectators at Jerez than at Austin). Every other round is always on a knife edge of being dropped as there are always more people wanting to host a GP than there are slots on the calendar. Russia wants a round soon as does India and more asian countries. These are the growth markets for manufacturers, not the US or Europe, and pressure from Honda or yamaha could easily see an established round dropped in favour of India for instance. The CRT class has nothing to do with the money that DORNA makes from circuits paying to host GP's, but is more a reflection on the fact that the factories will not build more prototypes for private teams. This is being addressed for next year by Honda and Yamaha supplying either complete customer bikes or engine packages. Unless the US public grasp the MotoGP concept pretty quickly and support it, it is entirely possible that MotoGp could drop at least one US round in the near future regardless of how many US riders are involved. Both F1 and MotoGP has done it before and no venue is considered either safe or historically important these days. | ||
| Jaimec |
I would think the BIGGEST selling point for NASCAR-crazed American racing fans would be to point out that if you bought your tickets, you WILL see the race, because MotoGP races rain or shine! Apparently, NASCAR cars can't get wet... | ||
| Jaimec |
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| Gaesati |
Thank you for the post Jaime, I enjoyed it immensely. On considering Audi's approach and riders contracts and performance Cal Crutchlow looks like the only prospect for Ducati for 2014 of the current crop of MotoGp racers unless they are prepared to groom someone from moto 2 or WSS. | ||
| Trojan |
Crutchlow as very vocal & public in his criticism of the way Ducati treated him last year (with very good reason), so I don't know if they would approach him again. Cal is extremely outspoken and will call a spade a spade, so if the bike doesn't work he isn't scared of telling everyone about it. Would Ducati want another rider (after Rossi) who will tell it as it is instead of being diplomatic like Hayden? Scott Redding was also given a 'verbal contract' with Ducati last year and they let him down too. However he is hungry to get to the top and would probably be more forgiving than Cal. I think we may see Cal move to Suzuki rather than Ducati. Davide Brivio is tipped to be the team boss for the returning Suzuki team, and he is a fan of Cals apparently. | ||
| Gaesati |
That makes sense, Matt. Audi may well put a room through the old ways of doing things at Ducati, though. | ||
| Trojan |
There has been lots of talk about how Audi have changed things at Ducati already, but from the outside it doesn't look as if much has changed except personnel. The bike still has the same problems it has had for at least 2 years and the 'lab bike' doesn't appear to be a huge step forward for them either after the recent test. I kind of expected Audi to push a new broom straight through the MotoGp project and develop a new bike rather than continue flogging what is effectively a dead horse on the GP13. Maybe they have something new behind closed doors, but I think we would have had rumours of it at least by now if it existed. To be honest they would have nothing to lose now by developing a brand new bike during the race season if they had one ready. With the WSB bike also struggling (and the BSB Panigale absolutely hopeless so far) I think the whole Ducati Corse department will be under increasing pressure to either deliver the goods or leave the series before long. Even Audi's money won't back a loser for too long. With both Honda and Yamaha bringing competitive 'customer' bikes/engines next year to replace CRT (the best of which even now are a match for the Ducati) and the return of Suzuki to the MotoGP fold, will Ducati be happy to finish even lower down the field than they do now if their bike can't improve? I doubt it. | ||
| Gaesati |
I think part of Ducati' s problem is that sales depends on their being an iconic brand. Their status is tied to their links to a racing cultureand racing success. This makes it very difficult for them to leave a series. The Panigale despite its initial sales figures and the welcome it was given by the press must be proving an embarrassment to them. | ||
| Trojan |
I agree, but their sales and reputation have been linked more to WSB than GP racing over the years. I can't see them abandoning WSB any time soon but I think the GP project is probably on shaky ground already. Audi will be looking at costs and results and will be pretty hard nosed when it comes to swinging the axe if they think they are not getting value for money out of the GP team. The Panigale will bear fruit eventually I think, but they are starting from a blank sheet of paper with it so far and are still limited by the throttle restrictors (even though these have recently been increased in size under the WSB 'parity' rules. Injury and poor weather during testing has put them back further still, but if you look at the BMW S1000R it didn't have a stellar first season (or second) in WSB either. Ducati have too much invested in their street bikes to fail with the Panigale. | ||
| Jaimec |
But as I recall, it dominated Superstock... and the Panigale hasn't impressed there either. In fact, about the only thing it has impressed are road test magazine writers (until they do a comparison against the other bikes in the class, that is). | ||
| Trojan |
Part of the problem is that the Panigale has to run in WSB with an almost stock engine, as they are not allowed to change much compared to the 4 cylinder bikes (they even had to spec the road bike with titanium rods so that it complied with WSB rules). Now that they are comparable on weight too it seems only fair that they remove the intake restrictors. I read recently that the WSB spec Panigale has 'less than' 200bhp whereas the BMW/Aprilia is putting out around 215bhp+. I thought that the Panigale had done quite well in Superstock so far? Maybe I'm thinking of last season though. In BSB it is doubly hampered by having to run the spec Motec ECU, so I can't see it being anywhere near the front here any time soon. WSB is another matter and I can't see Ducati jumping ship from their ever (even if they disguise their factory team inside the Alstare setup). Apparently Alstare have now been allowed to share the development of the bike (Ducati have insisted that it was all done in house up to now) after the boss threw a wobbly with Ducati Corse recently. maybe that will improve matters | ||
| Xb1125r |
nice video, looks like the races use to be a lotttt tigher. now once the factory bike gets ahead no one catches him. the CRT teams why do they even show up they have no chance in getting even in the top 3. they donw even get any tv coverage | ||
| Trojan |
nice video, looks like the races use to be a lotttt tigher. now once the factory bike gets ahead no one catches him. the CRT teams why do they even show up they have no chance in getting even in the top 3. Using that logic you would only ever have three bikes on the grid. CRT is racing in its own race really and the teams are aware that they will not challenge the factory teams (except Ducati!). What CRT does is give smaller teams the ability to run a bike at GP level and hopefully to attract the attention of factories to let them run customer teams in future like Tech3 and LCR do now. Racing actually wasn't much closer relatively back in the 1980's than it is now. The reason why you had more 'front runners' was that the factories supplied more bikes, so at certain times you had both Honda and Yamaha running two factory teams plus supplying 'over the counter' racers that were a lot closer to factory bikes than CRT/lease bikes are now, to private teams. With a lot less money & technology involved even the factory teams worked out of the back of a van in those days, so things were much more equal... If you want to go back to the days when a true privateer could win a world championship you need to go back to John Ekerold in 1980, when he beat the factory teams to win the 350cc world championship on a private Yamaha. The last time a non factory bike won a GP was when Tony Elias beat Rossi by a fraction of a second in Portugal (taking advanatge of some very special Miuchelin tyres made overnight especially for him). In fact his bike was a semi factory Honda anyway, so it was a long time before that that a true privateer won a top class GP. In the 1950-1960's most people rode 'customer' Manx Nortons etc, so had more chance of winning a GP, although racing was still dominated by the big factories at various times such as MV Agusta, Bennelli, NSU and Honda. During Agostini's time at MV it was quite normal for him to lap almost the entire field and win races by huge margins, so close racing has never been guaranteed. Nostalgia is great, but not always true | ||
| Gaesati |
Wayne Gardner' s two wins in the inaugural Phillip Island races, '89 and '90 I think it was , were truly epic with amazing battles between Rainey, Lawson, Schwantz, Gardner, Magee, Sarron and Doohan . They are worth watching again if you can find a copy out there in the Internet. The '88 battle at leMans or Paul Ricard was also pretty classy. | ||
| Trojan |
Interview with Ezpeleta regarding the future of US and Spanish GP's... http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/May/130516m17. htm Doesn't look good for either Indy or Jerez (I'm guessing that would be the one to drop given their financial problems recently). I can visualise his nose growing longer by the inch during this statement though... "The only thing we can do is to try to improve young people from other nationalities and the only ones doing something is us (Dorna)," he added. "In the history of Dorna, we never helped any Spanish people to race and we help a lot of non-Spanish people...obviously we prefer as organisers more nationalities but we can't kill anybody." He sounds more like Bernie Ecclestone every day  |
