| Author | Message | ||
     Bobhorse |
Anyone know the stock spring rate specs for an '06 Uly. I'm looking to outfit my Uly with some tuned straight rate springs to match my weight. They're too stiff for me right now. Race-tech recommended .90kg/mm rate for my light load (~185 w/ gear). I'm just wondering with what they came, stock...I know the '06 is the only XB12X with straight rate springs, as they went with progressive in '07 and on. I was gonna phone my local dealer tech, but they lost ALL of my business when they advised me to not use a lighter weight oil or any other oil other that "type E Showa fork oil" stating that my forks were designed "to only use TYPE E oil." ...REALLY?!? I thought about using 7-8w to see if that would loosen them up a bit. Now I'm leaning towards lighter springs and 10w. Hopefully yall can be more helpful than my local stealer. Thanks in advance. | ||
| Ratbuell |
How do you have them adjusted? This is the first time I've EVER heard they were too stiff...even froggy hasn't said that, and he weighs less than my helmet! | ||
| Tootal |
Bobhorse, try some Amsoil 5wt in the forks. Made mine work great but then again I have the 07 springs. The adjusters seem to do more with the thin oil. I have seen list that say E oil is 10wt. and I've seen list that say 5wt. All I know is that wt. is different for every brand and you can't cross reference based on just wt. Do a net search, there is all kinds of info out there. With the Amsoil I can set it where it just floats down the interstate soaking up everything and my wrist are loving it. When I hit some twisties I just turn everything in a half turn and it works great for me. I'm 235 with gear so it should work much better than E oil. On Amsoil's site they say that Showa recommends 5wt. in their forks for what it's worth. I even put the 5 wt. in the Harley and made it much better! (Message edited by tootal on March 05, 2013) | ||
| Froggy |
Yea, I'm not sure the spring rate numbers, but if you think the 06 is stiff, your other bike must be a Buick! Personally I wouldn't do the Race Tech springs just yet, the 07 springs drop right in and significantly improve the front end, and they are dirt cheap. If then you still are not happy, go for the Race Tech ones. I wonder if your stiffness issue is due to a change made by a previous owner, possibly heaver springs or fork oil. | ||
| Motorbike |
Or the wrong amount of fork oil maybe? Too much? | ||
| Bobhorse |
This has been an ongoing issue that I tried to correct last summer. Even with the softest compression setting and zero turns of preload, it lacks a third of its potential travel. I'll have to put some zip-ties on the stanchions, do some emergency stops, and record, for good reference, how much travel I am actually using. Now my fork seals due for a replacement, so I bought new bushings as well when I ordered my seals in case they need to be replaced also. And for oil, I just bought some Motul technosynthese 10w. I found solid resources stating that Harley type "E" is 38-39.2cSt @40C and ~7.0-7.4 cSt @100C Motul states that their "technosynthese 10w" is 35.9cSt @40C and 6.0cSt @100C. So thats a bit of of a drop in viscosity. Hmmm...I was gonna see if new bushings and motul 10w softened it a bit. But, now ya got me thinknig about getting some 7w or 5w in there when I change the seals. Then, see how that works and go from there. I only wanted to know the stock spring rate to compare with what racetech recommended for my weight and use. They recomended this spring: FRSP S3627090 which is .90kg/mm Just looking to get all the "knowns" on the table before I start changing things. ~7w and new bushings sounds like a good start. | ||
| Bobhorse |
Definitely not too much oil, as I had to begin wiping them after rides at since the end of last summer. Although, I have not actually checked or adjusted the fluid ammount, I doubt they would have been altered from stock. Damn!! Light bulb just clicked. The PO had me by probably a good 100lbs... He said he did not modify the bike, even the slightest bit, be he very well could have threw some extra oil in there for a quick fix for fork dive...maybe?? ...Interesting thought that I has not crossed my mind until now. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Where's your rebound set? You mentioned two of the three adjustments... Like Froggy, I find it extremely difficult to believe stock 06 springs are too firm for anyone bigger than...oh...my 19 lb pug. How many miles? Was a service maybe botched in the past and the adjusters aren't functioning properly? If forks are reassembled incorrectly, you lose adjustability (turns of the tool) as well as function. | ||
| Uly_man |
E type fork oil is about 10w. This is to light and the air gap is to small to stop the dive some may feel, I do, with this bike for good road work. This is something that is not un-common with bikes. You need to tune it to your own riding style. This bike is not an old school "springer" and has the best suspension I have ever had on a bike bar none. The fork and shock springs take the bike/rider load (pre load) and has little to do with damping. This is done via the hydraulics of the system and the air space in the forks. You need to balance this to get what you want. In your case it sounds, if the forks are ok, that the oil is to thick ie it can not move though the plates/holes fast enough. The OEM 06 springs are fine but if your doing the seals you may want to change them anyway but I would not. | ||
| Uly_man |
Next bit? Check that it is not your main seals that are damaged but that the dust seals are toast. I had this on my bike and was fixed with Kregia gatters which then did what the dust seals would have done. You want to fit these anyway. See my post on this to prove if it is the problem or otherwise. If the main seal problem is fixed, due to dust seal, it will then be the fork oil which is harder to solve. It can be done on the bike but will be a case of "trial and error" for what you want. That or strip out the front end to fix the problem. | ||
| Red450 |
Bobhorse out weighs me by about 40lbs. Even I find the 06 springs are way too soft. Definitely has to have been some sort of modification. | ||
| Bobhorse |
I'll get back to yall in a week after I have some sunny weather to do some testing and record the "before" results. Then I'm just gonna break them down...see how much oil is actually in there (one fork should be accurate as it has not began to weep or leak). I'll see how much "stiction" is alleviated when I install new seals and bushings(if needed). Then I'll decide which fluid I will use. Give me a week and I'll report back with the results. I've always preferred a well tuned straight rate spring over progressive. I don't mind fork dive...I anticipate it and plan accordingly. The bike handles well; I'm just missing a bit of usable range. In short, the front is not soft as it was now that i think about it. when i bounce it, the front and rear do not react uniformly, no matter how adjusted. The more i think about it, the more i think new seals and fluid will loosen the dampening. the rebound adjustments works great. I'm really thinking that 22,000 miles on on the factory fluid is the root of my problems. Deteriorating bushings and other debris might have altered my fluid for the worst. I'll get back to yall with a report. Thanks for the insight. | ||
| Arcticktm |
Definitely +1 on those saying to inspect what you have first and see if something is wrong or has been altered. I was ready to change springs in my '01 KTM640 due to having them at full hard and still too soft off road. Took to local awesome suspension guy (Cogent Dynamics), as 1 seal was also leaking on 11 year old WP forks. He says, "I wonder if something came apart and is bypassing all your valving?". Sure enough, he finds in both forks they have loosened a nut inside about 1/2 turn. He did the seals, put in nice 5w oil, saved me a bunch of money on NOT buying new springs. He even did a shock dyno run before/after to show the difference. Night and day difference. Since it likely happened over time, I never noticed the little changes until I took the bike seriously off road recently. I only weight 175lbs and replaced my stock '06 springs with '07's because they were too soft. I also tend to run about 2 lines more preload on the forks than the manual recommends for my weight, to reduce fork dive, even using rear brake to help. | ||
| Uly_man |
"Night and day difference. Since it likely happened over time, I never noticed the little changes until I took the bike seriously off road recently." This is VERY common with bikes. People adjust to wear on suspension over time but then starts to ask why the bike is so crap. I have seen this many times. The springs are, more or less, just for the bikes load ie bike plus other (un-sprung) weight. The air gap on the forks is also part of the system. It acts as a cushion and as it is air it has a liner compression ratio. Damping is hydraulic via oil for compression and rebound but the air gap helps this on the front for a smoother feel. Compression controls the bumps (how well it absorbs them) and rebound how well/fast it keeps the wheel back to contact with the road after compression. Sorry I know thats a bit basic. And if you do not know rebound is on the TOP of USD forks and the bottom of the shock. Know this? This bike has superb suspension and is great quality. This, the frame, good rubber and set up will out handle anything on the road today. | ||
| Bobhorse |
Ya mon. The Uly's plush long travel suspension was one of the major reasons why I bought this particular model. In the past it has not given me trouble. I am fully competent with my bikes suspension adjustment operation. The rear is butter...nice soft bounce with a bit of rebound dampening to hold me down there when I rail through a long sweeper. But, the front is a different story. I have the front set with zero turns of preload (7 lines), no compression dampening (2 turns out) and only set rebound to 1 1/2 turns out. She is at the softest side of adjustment and it is way too stiff. I can't even use more than 5/8 of its travel during high speed braking... I had to put all of the weight on the bars and mash into a dip to get it close to 3/4 travel. I will NEVER see these circumstances. This type of use would be considered abuse in my book if I were not "testing" for maximum travel. Long story short problem is definitely apparent. time to crack into them and see what's going on inside. | ||
| Ratman |
Sounds like somebody added some spacers. The coils become completely compressed before the travel on the forks is used up. | ||
| Uly_man |
"Long story short problem is definitely apparent. time to crack into them and see what's going on inside." Yes thats ALL wrong. You should be getting about 80% of the travel on static bounce. Also sounds like over weight oil and to much as well. Try my 10ml of extra 15w oil per fork for the 06 bike with std HD oil and amounts once you have re-built the forks. Given what you have said/know I think you will like it once its setup. The OEM springs are fine even for your weight but fit a fresh set anyway as you have them apart. | ||
| Palankearney |
I think I saw somewhere that the spring rate was something like .60kg/mm. Way too soft for my 190lbs (mostly sporty road riding, sometimes with passenger/luggage). By the way, where'd you get that RaceTech part number? I don't think Race Tech makes a spring that fits the Ulysses. When you click on the "calculate spring rates and see available springs" link on the Race Tech website, springs are listed but the text "spring rate calculation is not complete" is also displayed. I called Race Tech, and was very surprised to be told that due to the length of travel of the Uly's forks, they do not have a spring that works. There was something similar about the shock spring, too - their advice boiled down to "the stock spring is as close to what we'd recommend as you can get." I have been thrilled with RaceTech's GVEs and springs in many bikes, but have ordered a Hyperpro kit for my Uly simply because I couldn't get what I wanted from RT. Never tried progressive springs before, but we'll see how it goes. | ||
| Bobhorse |
Well, after trying many different set-ups, I am back to a 10w fluid with a bit less volume. Down from 113mm to top, to 118mm from top. Feels like butter. I'm not exactly sure what was causing my excess stiffness, but I believe that it was something causing bad "stiction" in only one of the forks. When I pulled them off of the bike, one of them was very noticeably stiffer and slower reacting. They both had stock fluid levels, and the fork caps were too fresh for anyone to have ever been inside of them before myself. I had some a quart of 7w that I mixed with a bit 10w, and I put that in them so I could really see the action of my springs(less dampening gave me a better insight of my spring and rate.) 7w did not have enough dampening...I did get it tuned to my liking, but I was less than a turn out on both ranges...Compression and rebound. So I tried plan B: Motul 10w with 5 mm less than stock fluid level...MONEY!! I did find a good bit enlightenment regarding fluid level. Minus my stiction problem in one leg, I was trying to tune for the initial "bump" on a hard low speed compression...that is best tuned by adjusting the fluid level. Long story short: With Motul 10w (~36cSt) and fluid level of 118mm from top, I have found Nirvana again. A lil bit less of fluid gives me a softer "bump" on low speed (10-30mph) speed bumps and dips. High speed travel is back where it should be with my stiction problem gone. After I replaced the seals, both forks felt the same when compressed individually, whereas before with a leaky seal, one had excessive stiction. And for the Race-tech spring rate...I emailed them explaining my issues as stated above and they suggested FRSP S3627090. The last two digits of the p/n distinguishes its spring rate. So they recommended a .90kg/mm. But hey my symptoms are gone so a new spring is no longer needed.  Definitely one of the longer posts I have written, but it looks like I had a good amount of yall awaiting a report. Time to enjoy a good weekend: Daytona races and St. Paddy's Day!  | ||
| Uly_man |
Yes that all sounds about right. The air gap is a "sort of" fine tune over the spring pre load. More gap if your light and less if you are, like me, heavy. But a VERY small amount is needed. Maybe 5-10ml either way. But get your pre load right first. Compression and rebound adjustments change the SPEED of reaction not the hardness although that is what it may feel like. The RATE of reaction, for the design, is the thickness of oil and other things. It is all about set up and balance on a bike. The whole thing is a complicated subject. ALWAYS start with the tires. As always the pressures can vary for diff makes. On this bike start with 36 front and 38 rear. Ride the bike over a small bump and you should find the tire feels the same front and rear. If not add or take away air to the REAR until they feel the same and only by 2 psi. And yes thats all that may be needed. Adjust the pre load as per the 08 plus bikes for your weight. DO NOT use more than 50% rear pre load to start with. And DO NOT adjust the damping more than half a turn at a time. | ||
| Desertjeff |
Got my new springs 45 bucks delivered. I am fast running out of excuses not to rebuild my forks. But its like 90 today and sunny so its going to have to wait. | ||
| Desertjeff |
Wow what a difference new springs make I just installed the 2007 springs in my 2006 Ulysses and I can not believe how much better balanced the whole bike feels. I thought it was a little soft in the front but by far the most fun motorcycle I had ever owned. But now its really unbelievable. I just love this thing. | ||
| Tootal |
I agree with you that they made a huge difference but with mine they were a lot softer than the stock 06 springs. However, I believe at least one of my forks was overfilled with oil because it rode like a jackhammer even with all the adjustments wide open! I think getting the correct oil level probably made a bigger difference than the springs did. I guess I was getting paid back from the Motor Company since two of my FL's were low on fork oil. In fact one was near empty from the factory! I had never heard a fork "squeek" before! Oil level is so important and a useful tool in tuning forks. Glad to hear yours is much improved! |
