| Author | Message | ||
     Electraglider_1997 |
Zero has some great looking 2013 bikes. http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/2013/ It would be pretty neat if Buell and Zero would join forces. | ||
| Hughlysses |
The vice president of engineering at Zero is former Buell director of engineering Abe Askenazi. Of course, I can imagine EBR would be glad to get him back if the opportunity arises. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Zero is there first, and their bikes are definitely interesting to me. I looked at the 2013 models when they were announced this morning, and the compelling bike looks like the stripped down but still street legal dual sport. 275 pounds, up to 40+ peak HP, that could definitely be a great little commuter. So I look at the Zero $13k price tag, I sigh and think its on the list with the others if I ever win the lotto, or when the price is closer to $5k. But the Brammo is what gives me the really cold sweats. A transmission, so I can use a gearbox to get stupid amounts of rear wheel torque. Liquid cooling, so packaging could be stupid small and weight could be kept very low. When I look at the Brammo (or more accurately, the vaporware that the Brammo continues to market), the thought of $10k sounds like a terrible idea... that haunts me, and I dismiss, and that returns to haunt me again... and I know how that can end...  Oh, and so as not to produce any confusion... the Brammo price will NOT be $10k... last I heard it was more like $16k. And AFAIK, its still mostly vaporware, where Zero is ***shipping***. So I think my real point is that I wish Zero would produce liquid cooled electric motors with transmissions, and magically cut the cost of batteries by 50% to 75%. I can dream.  (Message edited by reepicheep on October 02, 2012) | ||
| Mhevezi |
Reep- I have a close friend who works at ZERO and he keeps teasing me with dates and things to come, but for obvious reasons, he can't tell me much. The Brammos look awesome and promise alot, but have yet to be delivered. Until Brammo produces a few thousand, and ZERO does as well, prices will remain high- hopefully as the bikes gain range and utility, more will buy and prices will drop. I for one am excited for the future of electric vehicles and will happily replace my cars & bikes with plug-ins! But not until it's an apples-to-apples swap. (I think I'll keep my Uly though- NOTHING replaces the rumble of that v-twin...) Sorry to hijack this thread | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Yes Brammo always seems to have these bikes that promise so much but never quite make it to market. What's with that? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Its a tried and true .com business model... Just get your cash out before the "optimistic predictions" become verifiable. Not to say I want Brammo to fail... I don't. But it seems to be following the "venture capitol" model of selling a dream rather then selling a product (and cashing out before the bubble bursts). | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
They are cool and all until I look at the range and specs. Compare them to my 1989 KLR250 and I am disappointed. A tank of flammable chemicals is still the most easy way of storing energy. I love this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Common _energy_densities Look at where TNT is compared to diesel! LOL. | ||
| Mhevezi |
Yep- NOTHING beats the explosive stuff! Ha Ha! I would like to see what Erik could with an E-Bike... not sure if he is too entrenched in combustion energy, but he seems to have some good, forward thinking ideas that have advanced motorcycles. E-Bikes are not there yet- but they are getting closer. Maybe the Hero Partnership will start that conversation. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Been there done that. EBR helped engineer a hybrid scooter with Hero. Cool concept, I hope one like it (that is less scooter and more motorcycle) makes it to production here in the states. Nothing wrong with scooters, I just like the feel and performance potential of a traditional motorcycle footprint better. | ||
| Uly_man |
In the past I have thought about a LPG conversion on my car. This is a fuel they have used in the UK for over 40 years now but I can only recall a few places, I have worked all over the UK as well, you could get it. It is easy to know if you can as it is posted outside the gas station with all the other fuel prices. You just can not buy the stuff so "no go" on that one. So what about electric? Well if you want electric because it is "Green" it is mostly not now and the more electric stuff that is used the less it will be unless someone invents something that is truly a "Green" techno like "Cold fusion". Even then do not think that it will be any cheaper to run. In fact all fuel costs are going to go "through the roof" in the next few years. Oh and thinking on electric fueling in 15 years I have only seen one place to charge in all the places I have worked and can not even do so at my home or can many others so could not use a electric bike/car yet even if they are about. It is not something you will be able to do at a gas station as you do now. We will see. | ||
| Svh |
That ZERO FX is nice looking and would be a sweet commuter. $11k with the big battery minus the federal credit could be nice but then the new Triumph Street Triple R shows up for nearly the same price.... | ||
| Court |
The ZERO products show up at Metro North Commuter stations . . perfect . . ride the electric bike to the train station . . leave it . . train to Midtown. That works. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
In my opinion, the price is out of line in comparison to the number of parts. An ICE has a lot of parts compared to an electric motor. I can understand how an ICE cost a bunch of money. An electric motor should be cheap relative to the ICE. To tell someone that you paid $16K would make you feel like the fool. They need to bring the price down to where people would feel like they'd be a fool not to buy one. | ||
| Buewulf |
In my opinion, the price is out of line in comparison to the number of parts. The ineconomies of low unit production combined with the burden of amortization for new tooling and technology is a tough challenge to get around. You need LOTS of fools to start buying in order to help get the price down over time. | ||
| Reepicheep |
It's a $5000 bike with a $10000 battery pack (literally). I was thinking about building one out of an old KLR-250 or something. The batteries really are just that expensive. | ||
| Buewulf |
The price the battery pack used in the Zero X is $6500. Still not very appetizing, but it beats 10-large. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Buewulf, That is only the 5.7 KWatt on the FX. The 11.4 kw probably is 10 large. (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on October 04, 2012) | ||
| Reepicheep |
Thanks for the clarification. When I was researching batteries, it was to reproduce a 40 HP bike with a 100 mile range, and it was all of $10k. | ||
| Uly_man |
The battery pack cost and charge issue is the main problem at the moment but they will get there one day. But why not have, as they have done with one car, a smaller (so cheaper) battery with a small IC engine that can charge the battery if needed but it still is only electric drive. This sort of Hybrid seems like a great idea and "ticks" most all the boxes. I might not have the drive motor in the hub because of the un-sprung weight but you could still use the motor as a brake and charger for the battery. The IC charge engine, tank and charger would take up very little space. Possibly not even the size of two OEM batteries and maybe the weight of one. Other things like a front wheel "drive hub" could give you "all wheel" drive, ABS, traction control and braking control like linked brakes. All of which would be cheaper and easier to do with the electric motors rather than the VERY complicated/lots of parts/weight/expencive systems needed with ICE bikes. Even with a three/five tier "back-up" control system AKA aircraft "fly-by-wire" systems it would take up very little space and weight. It would also be a simple matter to "set-up" for your own ride style. You could have any number of "built-in" set-ups and just go through them until you found what works for you. It could even be made as a "module parts" bike with "swap out" sections like the battery pack as a back-up and/or "on charge/stand by" part. What some people do not know, as yet, is it is MUCH easier to control a electric motor and it gives a MUCH better torque/ratio output than even a V-Twin IC engine. And if you still want that V8, V-Twin or other engine sound people are fitting systems to give you that even now? | ||
| Buewulf |
I'd have to agree that the motor in the hub wouldn't be a good idea for a motorcycle, at least not for a sporting one. Things are looking a little more promising in the e-bike world. It all comes down to how much energy those batteries can store and how quickly that energy can be replenished. When you think about how much energy there is in gasoline, it is hard to imagine a battery being able to replace it except for certain conditions like commuting. I considered possibly buying a Zero X about this time last year (was scheduled to test drive one in San Antonio, too, but the Uly broke down right before the trip). I figured I could go tear up some of the river trails around here while being neighborhood-friendly at the same time. Just looked it up and saw that we have a dealer in Houston, now, so I may go check it out this weekend. Expensive for a toy though. As a commuter, it might not make sense financially, but I wouldn't mind having one so long as the bike were capable of a true 100mph, had a true 60-mile range and had a transmission. Don't know if I could swallow the risk of possibly replacing a $10K battery in a few years, though. | ||
| Windrider |
Zero is the best in EV bikes and Abe and crew are doing great things. Look at far they have come in just 3 model years. Value is subjective but a Zero DS seems like a bargain compared to a $25K Chrome Tractor bike from HD but there are buyers for those. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Estimated battery pack life is 103,000 miles. For most of us that is a long time riding. http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-x/specs.php | ||
| Buewulf |
If they rate battery life like they do battery range, that means real world life is more like 50K. Which is a silly rating anyway since battery life is directly related to mileage anyway. I am not saying that is the case, I am just saying that not knowing worries me when it comes to a $10K battery. I get irritated when I have to replace a $120 battery pack for a tool after a few years. There are lots of cells in those packs. Only one needs to go bad. Zero only warranties it for two years IIRC. Why not warranty it for 103K miles? or even 75K miles? I am too worried that those battery life ratings may end up being like the "lifetime" belts on our bikes. And it is too expensive to be worrying about. Bring on the fools to bring down the prices of these things and field test them properly! | ||
| Reepicheep |
You aren't being unreasonable Beuwulf, but I will say that the battery technology really is growing by leaps and bounds, probably a result of both the quality of the cells and in the smartness of the chargers. In "the old days", a laptop with a battery that was more than a year or two old was 90% likely to be more or less useless. Same with rechargeable tools and consumer devices like phones. These days, they seem to be much closer to lasting the life of the device. Now we just gotta get them first cheap, and secondly more quickly rechargable. Or something like a hydrogen or alcohol fuel cell, where a fresh "charge" can be more quickly transferred. | ||
| Buewulf |
Batteries have indeed improved by leaps and bounds, and the lithium batteries that now power all my tools and electronics seem to be doing very well, though I don't have enough elapsed time with them to really form an unscientific opinion about their longevity. That said, our company goes through about 300 laptops per year, and the death rate of those batteries is still about 45% after two years. Again, I am not preaching doom and gloom or slamming electric vehicles. But a $10K battery NEEDS to be proven substantially reliable before I would ever jump on that wagon, or become substantially cheaper. Even if it did last 100K miles, I don't find that very comforting. That would be like the Honda dealership telling you that the new CBR250R engine will last 100K miles, then they would gladly sell you a replacement engine for $10,000. Granted it would take a LONG time to put that kind of mileage on a bike that can only run for 45 - 50 miles per charge. It's only purpose could only essentially be either a short distance commuter or neighborhood toy. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instan t&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_nf=1&cp=19 &gs_id=e&xhr=t&q=Lithium+air+battery&pf=p&sclient= psy-ab&oq=Lithium+air+battery&gs_l=&pbx=1&fp=1&bpc l=35243188&ion=1&biw=1920&bih=947&bav=on.2,or.r_gc .r_pw.r_qf.&cad=b | ||
| Turf_moor |
Horrible looking things | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
Speaking of Honda, It would seem that they are now an even greater threat to the electric bike market with their NC700 with the auto tranny option and 70 MPG. That's what happens when manufacturers actually TRY to get good fuel economy. As noted in that wikipedia table I posted above, the energy density of gas/diesel is so far above that of most other commonly available storage methods. Really hard to give that up. I mean according to that chart, gas is 15 times more powerful than gunpowder |
