| Author | Message | ||
     Axlakow |
This is my first post, and my first Buell, although I have been lurking on here for a while, and find that there are a lot of knowledgeable people. Anyways... On my way home from work last night, taking off from a stop, and all of a sudden I get a knocking noise coming from the primary, like someone is whacking it with a hammer. So, I get home, and leave the bike running in my driveway, and it sounds perfectly fine throughout the rev range, only makes the sound when in gear and moving. I drained the primary, and a piece of metal came out in the oil, and it is most definitely a tooth from a gear somewhere in the tranny. I continued to remove the primary cover, and check over the clutch basket and primary sprockets, as well as the starter pinion, and all are fine. so i then removed the flywheel/sprocket and the clutch basket to get a look behind there, everything is ok there too. I notice an oil galley behind the clutch basket that goes into the tranny down at the bottom of the case, and I see another piece of metal floating around in there, and it is another part of the other piece of metal that came out earlier. It appears to be a tooth off of a gear, about 1 inch long, and 1/8" tall/wide when you put both pieces of metal together. I proceeded to put everything back together, and slowly drive it up my drive way, shifting through all gears to see if I could determine which gear the piece may have come from, but it makes the same sound in any gear(shifts through all gears fine and they all work). I only got it up to 10 MPH or so, as I do not want to do any further damage. Has anyone else ever had this happen to them. I thought the Buell/Harley trannys were pretty bulletproof, maybe I am wrong  I have never had this happen with any of the other 20 or so motorcycles I have owned. First time for everything I guess! Any help would be great. I am thinking that I will have to yank the motor and rip it apart to fix this, or just go and buy a used motor. I have only had the bike about a months, and have put 1500 problem free miles on it(until now). Changed the oil/filter in both primary and motor the day I got it, and adjusted primary chain tension to factory specs(didn't really require much adjustment, it was close to perfect). I do not beat on the bike, although I am an agressive rider. | ||
| Sifo |
I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that the '03 models still had the old trap door that allowed the trans to be removed from the engine case without splitting the engine case. That's your good news. If it's a broken tooth from a gear, it may still make noise in all gears. All the gears are still meshed all the time. It's just a matter of engaging them to the shaft they spin on to make gear changes. Given that you found pieces in the primary case, I would really make sure all is well in that area first, then dig into the trans. They do share the same oil though, so it could be from the trans. I don't think taking the trans out is too bad once the clutch basket is out, but I've never actually done that. They are pretty durable transmissions, but anything can and will break. | ||
| Greg_e |
The manual says to split the case, so no trap door. The gears appear to be about an inch wide (service manual pictures) so you are probably right on where the pieces broke. I would still check the clutch pack to make sure it wasn't one of the clutch dogs that broke off, but you are probably looking at needing a new gear. If you have to split the cases, decide how many other things you can do while the engine is apart, things like: - Head and valve work. - Big bore kit - Balance crank - replace big end crank bearing - cam upgrades - transmission gears cut - check/replace bearings - replace oil pump drive gear - new motor mounts - clean/paint the case - overhaul fuel pump (much easier when engine is out and swingarm can be moved - clean throttle body - clean injectors - new head temp. sensor - new o2 sensor Probably a few things I've forgotten, but you get the point. You are probably looking at getting a used motor as the fastest and cheapest way to deal with the fix, sell the old motor for a $100 or so if you can find anyone that wants it. | ||
| Axlakow |
yeah, no trap door that I can see. Looks like the cases will definitely have to be split. I jacked the bike up this morning, and spun the rear tire in neutral. Every 1 rotation, there is a clunking sound coming from the tranny. I triple checked the primary/clutch basket/flywheel sprockets ETC...everything is a-okay, no teeth broken off of anything......all looks to be in good order Its a shame, because the motor runs really well. I have torn into top ends dozens of time and I am comfortable with that, but something about splitting the cases and removing the tranny scares me a bit. I am hesitant, as I am sure there are special tools that you need to do it, and skills that i don't have. I would hate to rip it all apart, put it back together, then have something else go wrong. I think the best bet would be to just drop a used motor in, and cross my fingers that there is nothing wrong with that one. Pulling the motor on these bikes seems to be a pretty straight forward proposition. If i can do it on my GS1000S, I imagine I can do it on this bike | ||
| Axlakow |
Here is a picture of the broken tooth that came out: | ||
| Axlakow |
sorry  | ||
| Greg_e |
The other option would be to pull the top end off to reduce the weight and send the rest of the case to one of the good shops to have it rebuild. One of the sponsors here is the normally recommended places, but I can't think of the name. And it sounds like you are down for the rest of the season anyway, probably only another couple weeks left here in the north east. I haven't looked at the tools list yet to see what is needed, but shouldn't be too special things required. I know you need the pulley holding tool to remove the clutch basket and front sprocket, not a real expense and can be hand built. Also should have a clutch pack compressor which can also be built and also doesn't cost too much. I can't think of any other special tools that you can't go and get from Autozone or Harbor Freight (or Sears if you want to go upper scale) that would be needed to get the top end off. Never split the cases so I'm out of knowledge past the base gaskets. Looking through the service manual the only things I see offhand are a special tool to evenly press the transmission shafts in and out of the case, and a special assembly aid tool for the gear detent. There is a special bearing puller that looks like a flat plate if you are pulling one of the bearings. It does say to pay attention to the way the gears are mated because they wear together to form a pair. This suggests you should replace both gears in the broken pair at the same time. If it was me, I would either sell the complete engine to help fund the replacement, or buy some CorrosionX and pull everything apart and see if I thought I could fix it. The CorrosionX is important because it might take a while to get everything fixed and you don't want the cylinders and other things corroding, especially if you get into it and decide you can't fix it and want to sell all the engine parts in a basket. After that you are back to send it away for repair, or sell the entire machine and be done with the whole thing. Just for reference... A 1050cc kit with new valves and valve job will run you about $2000.00 including some of the misc. parts I mention above like temp. sensor and motor mounts. I would guess the transmission work would cost $500 to $1000, more if you go with balance the crank, etc. Used motors of "good" condition are normally around $1000 to $1500 but you never exactly know what you'll get unless you know the person selling it. You dead engine assembly is worth more in parts than whole, but it is up to you to decide how you sell it based on what the buyer wants to do with it. Probably only worth $100 to $200 either way because most people will want to go through everything before putting it in a frame. Selling the complete machine as is will probably only get you around $1500 to maybe $2000, they are selling around $3000 in "running down the road" order. you will NEVER recover the cost of the repair so don't even think about it as an investment to making the cycle worth more money if you decide to sell it. the $2000 I put into mine is not recoverable, but then I'm not thinking of selling it so the money spent and knowledge learned during the build was money spent to keep me riding. If you get a complete motor, check the year before handing over money. Late 07 brought new features like bigger main shaft on the crank and different crank angle sensor. The 08+ motors really require the 08 harness and computer so you need to get everything pretty much complete to make the swap. A couple people have done this swap and it would be worth a search to find the pitfalls they went through. The harness is slightly different between S and R models, and different from X models. | ||
| Xxxue |
Most likely a broken tooth some where in one transmission gears. What model and year is the bike, if it has high mileage or very old you may just want to cut your losses and sell it off. Your definitely looking at removing the engine and have to completely disassemble it the motor and then you may be looking at having to go thru and rebuild the entire engine, for what ever else it needs. You could try setting up an account at the xl forums, as there are a lot of sportster members there that have seen almost everything that goes wrong on a sportster engine. | ||
| Brother_in_buells |
Maybe this can give you an idea http://home.deds.nl/~buell_xb12s/home.html this is not mine! But if it was, I would try to do the most myself! | ||
| Sifo |
I thought the 03 still had the trap door. That came from Baker claiming to have a 6 speed for up to an '03 Buell. Probably inaccurate info from Baker though. Depending on your urgency, I would consider tearing into it. Worst case is you already have it broken down to part it out. Finding a used engine would be the quick/easy way. | ||
| Axlakow |
Thanks for all the sound advise, I truly do appreciate it. I know I will never get back what I put into the bike monetarily, so if I do indeed fix it, I plan to keep it. I will probably go down the used motor route, and try to recomp some of the cost by parting out the stock motor. I have noticed that there seem to be quite a few more XB12 motors out there vs. XB9 motors. I know externally, the motors are pretty much the same. Would the electronics and fuel system work from my XB9 if I were to go with an xb12 motor? I am assuming I would have to use an ECM from an xb12, and possibly the throttle body/injectors, anything else? I do have an ex-Buell dealership about half an hour from me, so I may call them tomorrow to get a very rough estimate on a tranny rebuild if I bring them the whole motor out of the bike. I am starting to think that I could probably fix it myself, but, not trying to be lazy, I really don't want to. I have way too much other shit going on right now | ||
| Greg_e |
To go with the XB12 you would want the engine, throttle body and injectors, ECM (or tune the one you have), and probably the muffler and valve actuator. I bet the estimate for the work from the dealer will be in the $1500 to $2000 range, might even be more because there are a few things that officially need to be done that you might skip. things like the cylinders need to be honed and new rings installed every time the pistons come out, I'm sure they would want to do a valve job and it probably needs valve seals anyway. I would pull the top end off and send it away to be fixed before taking to a dealer. I think these guys might be the suggested place to send this type of repair, they are a sponsor here http://www.cycle-rama.com/, if there is someplace else hopefully other people will post. | ||
| Nik |
I just went the used engine route. I put a 07 into my 05 to get the helical gears and bronze cam gear. Your 03 has a ddfi1 though, and unless you've updated it a different pulley. You just have to use the FI parts and pulley off your bike though. I found more 03 xb9 engines than anything else when I was looking though. And now I can rebuild my old engine to go more faster at my leisure : D | ||
| Greg_e |
03 used DDFI2 just like the rest of them. DDFI3 came in with the larger crank and moving the crank angle sensor. Are the helical transmission gears really worth having? They have a larger surface area but is there any other benefit to them? | ||
| Nik |
The cam sensor is different on the 03. The helical gears 'seem' smoother. I would never change engines just to get them but since I was doing it anyway why not? | ||
| Greg_e |
Yes the cam sensor is different so you would need the newer ECM to go with a newer engine. | ||
| Axlakow |
Seems to me like going the used engine route...9 or 12 may be a bit more economical, and something I can do myself without too many problems. Then I can try to part out the old motor to recoup some of the cost, or keep it for spare parts. I am going to call the dealer this morning and see what they tell me | ||
| Axlakow |
Just contacted my local Buell Dealer(Manchester HD/Buell). I asked them if they still serviced Buells, and he told me "depending on whats wrong with it " Nice. I told him what was going on, and he said he had to run it by the shop foreman, and would call me back. Something tells me I will not be hearing back from them....maybe I should have kept my Ducati | ||
| Axlakow |
So, after speaking with a few dealerships, it seem that it will be more trouble than it is worth to do a complete teardown and rebuild, so I have decided to do a motor swap. Need a few opinions. Should I go with the 12 or the 9 motor. I have never ridden a 12, so i have no idea what they are like. Also, reliability is now a major concern for me. I worry that I will do a motor swap, and the same thing will happen. How many people out there have high mileage bikes that have never had any major problems? When i say high mileage, I am talking 25,000 plus mileage. I understand things break, thats life, but I really want to keep the bike, and keep it for a while. Thanks | ||
| Sifo |
I'm a couple hundred from the 50K mark and have never had a valve cover or either side case off. My biggest issues have been a wheel bearing at each end, a noisy fan from day one that eventually failed, and a broken drive belt. | ||
| Rageonthedl |
Id be interested in the old motor for the right price. Or i could even just fix it for you and send it back. | ||
| Axlakow |
Too bad you are in Ohio! Once I source a new motor, I will gladly sell what is left of the old one. I am at the point now where the motor is just about ready to drop out of the frame, but I do not have an allen big enough for the rear axle bolt, and my toolkit is missing, so I can't use the axle removal too. Off to the hardware store to get a 7/8ish nut and weld it up to make my own tool I guess | ||
| Reepicheep |
I've had both a 9 and a 12 and liked both. The 12 has better low end grunt and better fuel economy. The 9 is more durable and sounds really nice at high RPM. The 9 is probably substantially cheaper. The 9 is geared lower as well. If my Uly motor goes, it will be really hard to pick if I want to put a 9 in it or a 12. It would probably come down to which I could get a good deal on. | ||
| Axlakow |
I would like to try and find a 9 motor, as I am pretty happy with how they feel/ride. Guess I need to start keeping my eyes open for a good deal and start saving some money! | ||
| Andymnelson |
Do you have spark plug sockets? Flip it around backwards, use an extension thought the socket and you'll have an axle wrench:  | ||
| Buelet |
I just happened to come across a trans & other parts that might be just the thing you need here in KC on Craigslist... http://kansascity.craigslist.org/mcy/3212870779.ht ml Best of luck! | ||
| Axlakow |
I thought of trying that, but none of the spark plug sockets I have are big enough Thanks though | ||
| Axlakow |
Thanks for the link. I think i am just going to go with a used motor. I figure by the time I buy everything else I would need to rebuild mine(gaskets, rings, cylinder hone, etc)it would cost me nearly as much, and a lot more time. Motor is 3 hours out, and 3 hours back in on these things, barring any unforeseen circumstances | ||
| Axlakow |
finally got my axle loose. Took me three tries to make my own tool to do it with, the first 2 attempts broke. Someone must have forgot to put some anti seize to the axle threads, because I had to hi it with an impact wrench for a good 10 minutes with liberal amounts of liquid wrench shot in there. Now I have a stripped head on one of the bolts holding the swingarm brace it, so I will have to drill it out to get the swingarm brace off to get the belt out. Fun Fun |
