| Author | Message | ||
     Motorfish |
I was out on my `06 the other day and the oil light came on. Don`t know how long it was on, but it couldn`t of been too long. I could hear the valves getting noisy, but it did not seize. Got a ride home, and once I opened it up, I found the oil pump drive gear was toast. Because I don`t have the time, and want to ride it to New Hampshire in June, I brought it to a friend`s shop to open it up, replace the gear and access the damage. I am upgrading the oil pump to a `07. The bike has 17K on it. I hope the rest of the motor is not trashed. I`m loosing faith in this bike. | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
That's terrible. 2006 was supposed to have the new "immortal" bronze gear too. I hope you caught it in time. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
I'd guess that you rode quite a while with that oil light on and your oil pump went dry and eventually that destroyed it. I don't think it would take that long to accomplish that either especially if the rpms were up and the engine was really good and hot at the time it happened. Naturally I'm just sitting here on my butt typing out my theory so it might be just total bunk. When a bike hits the rev limiter is cuts the engine because it is programmed into the ECM to do so. You would think that when the ECM is giving a red light on the instrument to tell you then oil is low, that it could also shut the frigging engine off so that you don't completely ruin it because of low oil and low oil pressure. That would have been a much appreciated feature for Motorfish and probably many others who have gone in oil starvation mode. Can't really think why this wouldn't have been something the Buell engineers should have done. A motorcycle run by an ECM should never allow an engine to run to the point of destruction because of any condition it is aware of. Idiot lights are not usually seen, especially in the bright light of day, and they don't even blink or include an audible warning unless you include the clacking of oil starved engine parts and that doesn't count. | ||
| Tootal |
If you just started to hear the tappets running out of oil and you shut it down I would say your fine. That's one nice thing about a roller bearing crank. My clutch cable on my Harley got between the Voltage Regulator and the oil filter and wore a hole in the filter and I lost oil pressure sitting in stop and go traffic and had to accelerate through a small gap in traffic to make the shoulder which sent a large cloud of oil smoke into the air. I've told this story before so lets just cut to the part where a nice guy shows up with a new filter and 4 quarts of oil. It took all four quarts to fill it. (I have an aftermarket 5 quart pan.) Screwed the new filter on and started it up. It sounded like a diesel for about 20 seconds and then got quiet. I proceeded to ride it for 6000 miles before I returned home and am still riding it with no problems. Bottom line, you'll be fine! | ||
| Motorfish |
You hit it,EG, with that ECM shutdown. I don`t think it would be all that hard to have that feature. I have to stop and think about how that could be done with relays or something. Tootal, thanks for that inspiring story, makes me feel a bit better, although my motor should have ground up metal in it. My tappets were making noise, but nothing too ugly. My fears are, that with the oil drive gear, ground away, the metal in the engine may kill it, and the pinion shaft being out of round. Al, from American Sportbike mentioned that. If the shaft is out of spec, it could happen again. I strained the oil through a cloth and really didn`t see a lot, or chunks of metal. I did find some fine,"glitter" though. I`ll find out more when the cam chest comes apart. Wish me luck, folks, and thanks for you input. | ||
| Jk651 |
I tend to agree with Tootal that more than likely you are ok. Replace the oil pump, check the oil pressure and see if it's within specs, and use a mechanics stethoscope to listen for abnormal bearing noise. Electraglider has a good point about a shutdown for low oil pressure. I don't think the oil pressure light is controlled by the ECM, but it wouldn't be that hard for them to program the ECM to monitor it. If I build some sort of high volume piezo buzzer that would sound when the oil light came on, do you guys think that is something people would buy? I think I could put them on a 10 second delay or something so you have time to start the bike without going deaf, and then once you're on the road, if the light comes on, here's like a 120db buzzer to get your attention. | ||
| Motorfish |
Yes, JK, it would need a delay, or some kind of sensor to tell when the engine is running, off the tach, maybe? Nate, "immortal", yeah, I guess not! | ||
| Uly_man |
If the oil light comes on and stays on, bike or car, you turn the engine off. That is because it is a sign that you may have a problem, with said engine, and may cut damage if you are lucky. "If I build some sort of high volume piezo buzzer that would sound when the oil light came on, do you guys think that is something people would buy?" If YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME. My version would be a big fist that blasts out of the dash with "WAKE UP YOUR ENGINE IS GOING TO EXPLODE" on it. | ||
| Ratbuell |
The oil light is a simple pressure sensor that grounds the circuit in a low pressure situation. No connection to the ECM. Power goes to one side of the light from the battery; ground routes from the battery through the switch, to the light. Simple switched circuit. Do we want the bike to auto-route to the gas station for us too, when the low fuel light comes on? That's why they put an oil light on it - for us to SEE and TAKE ACTION. I agree a buzzer may not be a bad idea, like a chime in a car, but an engine shutoff? Sounds more than a little too "nanny" for me, thanks. I'll just continue to pay attention to what I'm doing. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Ratbuell, Have you ever complained that your ECM rev limits the rpms so that your valves never start floating and punch a hole in the pistons? Everybody appreciates that feature as far as I know except that it could be a couple of thousand rpms higher. Also nobody really has a complaint that the bike shuts off if the (BAS) bank angle sensor detects the bike is on its side. That certainly is better than the bike engine roaring away after an accident. Doubt the oil can pump when the bike is on its side but no worries if the BAS does its job. I guarantee that anyone who has been hauling ass for hundreds of miles with the sun overhead would thank the Lord if suddenly the bike self-shutdown because the oil was low and oil pressure was insufficient for lubrication. Anybody with any sense carries a spare quart of oil on trips. Your Uly shut down so you check the oil and find that it doesn't register on the stick. Add the oil and give thanks that the bike shut itself down before any damage whatsoever occurred. I would have loved it if they had engineered that into the ULY. Seems like the BAS and the oil pressure sensor circuit could someway be tied together, possibly with a timed-delay relay and diode so that when the bike went into a prolonged no-oil-pressure situation that it would utilize the same means that the BAS uses to shut the engine off. One of you electrical whizzes can think about that one to see if it warrants consideration and without thinking too hard about it, I think it does. And if it turns out that idea has no merit or is un-doable then the high volume buzzer would certainly be a little more helpful and attention getting than a light that may or may not be seen in time. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Actually, I can count on one hand the number of times I've hit the rev limiter. There's this clock-face thing there on the dash, it shows how fast the engine is turning. I also can guarantee I've never "not seen" my low fuel light longer than 0.2 miles according to the "F" display. I - proactively - check my oil before a long trip, and if I hear valves making more noise than normal, I check it at fuel stops. Yes, I carry a quart in the bag. As well as a liter of fuel, tools, and a first aid kit. But being prepared doesn't mean I need any more "nanny" features on my bike. How about if cornering G's caused a low-pressure situation, only momentarily, and shut the engine off because the light flickered? How much fun would THAT be? Sounds like about as much fun as the BAS going wonky just before the apex, killing the engine, causing people to disable it. Or a sidestand switch that flakes, kills the engine, and gets disabled with a paperclip because it killed the engine in traffic (read the Old School board for that one). Lights and gauges are fine for me, thanks. And a kill switch. Used properly, they work just fine. | ||
| Towpro |
Sound yes, but auto shutdown would cause someone to sue you. Your in the middle of 8 lanes, bike just shuts off and you can get killed. If the oil light and maybe a noice you still have power (until motor locks) to get you off to the side of the road (or maybe something like out of a tunnel or off a bridge). | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
My point was that the Buell engineers provided these features to protect the engine. I probably haven't hit that rev limiter any more than you but I certainly wouldn't disable it either. The BAS has never even worked on my bike since I've never wiped out nor has it fallen over....yet. I remember Harley riders bemoaning the advent of fuel injection. Those same riders probably now love fuel injection. I certainly do not miss carbs in the least. Nobody says you have to change your bike if someone figures out how to do an auto shutdown in case of zero oil pressure. And, as I wrote in my previous post, it would have to be on some relay'd delay, not set off by a momentary flicker of low oil pressure. | ||
| Jk651 |
I wasn't necessarily advocating a shutdown mechanism for the oil light, I was only saying that it was certainly something they could have engineered into the bike if they wanted to. I think a sudden loss of power mid-turn could be devastating and tragic. What might not have been such a bad idea though would have been a reduced power mode after say 10 or 15 seconds of the oil light being on. Ratbuell- you may have never gone more than .2 miles without noticing the low fuel light, but .2 miles without oil could devastate an engine, especially if you were pushing it hard. The low fuel light is not a time sensitive, super critical thing. Even if you didn't notice it for 4 or 5 miles, you would still be fine. I just think that it couldn't hurt to have something to draw your attention to a little tiny light that is out of your line of sight when it's there to alert you of something critical that could lead to very serious engine damage in a very short period of time. | ||
| Motorfish |
Some good points made here by all. After thinking about it, I guess shutting the engine down could be dangerous. I would rather destroy the engine than me. A buzzer of some kind would probably be the best way to go. But what I really want is a bike that doesn`t need major engine work at 17k miles. | ||
| Electraglider_1997 |
Have any of you guys ever been on a bike going at least sixty mph and have the motor seize up on you because of the oil. Happened to me and practically threw me over the handlebars then the engine kept reciprocating and sounded like it was full of marbles. Fortunately the bike was under warranty and they did a rebuild. That was a 70's CL350 Honda way back when I was 16. So you guys would rather seize the engine in a middle of a turn than to have the bike auto-save itself by killing the engine. I'll take the shutdown any day of the week. I don't recall anybody getting killed when the BAS shut them down inadvertently when those things have malfunctioned. I don't see the difference. Sure, shutting down the engine could be dangerous but seizing the engine at high speed would be dangerous every time and way more costly. Just my opinion though. (Message edited by electraglider_1997 on May 26, 2012) | ||
| Motorfish |
That is a good point, EG, but a loud alarm, would alert the rider so they may pull over, or at least be aware of what is happening. It`s hard to me to figure out what the best thing would be, as different scenarios are brought up here. | ||
| Ratbuell |
I've seen people go into a ditch when the BAS did its thing at an aggressive apex. Burn into a hot turn sometime, and thumb that kill switch - let me know how much fun that is. I've also had my sidestand switch malfunction when trying to merge into traffic. I'd rather pay a mechanic, than an ER bill. And FWIW, I believe the theory behind a BAS isn't so much oil starvation, as it is simply "stopping the bike" much like the wrist lanyards on jetskis (which, I believe, either kills the engine or idles it and turns it full right so all it does is circle). If the engine kept running with the bike on its side, theoretically it could power into the downed rider, causing more injuries (or possibly having the bike LEAVE the scene of a downed rider, which if you read the "Bye Folks" thread also on BB&D right now you'd know is a bad idea because the bike is what the officer saw, causing him to find the rider). The BAS is designed to turn it into "dead weight" once it goes over. I seriously doubt ANY "safety" mechanisms are designed to preserve the vehicle. Any and all mechanisms I've seen have been designed with protecting the RIDER in mind, and they leave the "vehicle protection" side of things up to our decision making abilities. Red light? Find a shoulder and hit the kill switch. Bike on its side? Rider may not be able to do anything, so here's where we'll step in with an automated process. (Message edited by ratbuell on May 27, 2012) | ||
| Bikelit |
I've had engines seize at over 100mph (damm H2 triples). You pull the clutch in and coast to a stop. Plenty of time to estimate how much cash you're gonna need and who will come get you. Lock up a tranny or throw a chain, you then have problems. Please, no oil kill switch for me...... | ||
| Uly_man |
Any instant lockup of a the engine on a bike, oil pressure system or otherwise, would require a system that could disconnect the engine, from the transmission, to save the rider and/or engine. You could but not cheap or easy. If you want a better/bigger indication that your oil light has come on wire in something to the oil pressure switch. Clearly Ratbuell "listens" and takes note of anything that is not "normal" in the day-to-day running of his bikes. This is what anyone, as a motorcyclist, should be doing all the time. Most of the time it can save you money but it could save you as well. | ||
| Ratbuell |
a system that could disconnect the engine, from the transmission, to save the rider and/or engine I believe that system is called a "clutch"? I've had a transmission lock up (output shaft bearing, actually). Clutch was no help there. Big black stripe on the road, darn near a matching brown one in my shorts...but my BMX days doing banana-skids all the time kept me on the road and upright. Damn near flatspotted a hole in that Dunlop, too! | ||
| Uly_man |
All true Ratbuell. My post was just a "guide" and not for all situations. Not you but some need to get to grips with the "basics" of bike ownership. | ||
| Spikey |
Maybe go into skip spark mode when the oil light comes on? like when it gets too hot. Would'nt be a total loss of power but would let you know something serious is going on with the engine. Just my 2c | ||
| Bikelit |
Pulling in the clutch too difficult? Unable to notice a red light on? Need a modern day solution ? How about low oil pressure sends you an instant text message and a voice mail to your bluetooth..  Would that be a good compromise? IMHO - Cutting off spark while riding is a good way to get hurt..... | ||
| Paul56 |
I agree that it would be very easy to miss the light coming on in a lot of situations. Maybe not noticed in time to prevent damage. It would be very simple to use the oil light switch to run an interrupter relay added to the fuel pump circuit. Add a push button switch to the handlebar and you could choose to override the shutdown if you desired. Light comes on, relay opens, fuel pump quits, engine dies. If unsafe or inconvenient at that moment, push the button, fuel pump and engine come back on and you're able to get to the side of the road and deal with the problem. This remedy would require holding the button down while cranking and for a few seconds after the engine started for the light to go out. | ||
| Ratbuell |
You can't keep track of a red light coming on, but you're ok with that kind of thought/action process?? Wow. | ||
| Bobbuell1961 |
I've had engines seize at over 100mph (damm H2 triples). You pull the clutch in and coast to a stop. Plenty of time to estimate how much cash you're gonna need and who will come get you. Lock up a tranny or throw a chain, you then have problems. Please, no oil kill switch for me...... I had my old RZ350 lock up at 75+, bike skids, wags it's tail and then you remember to pull in the clutch. FUN times! HD and Buell engines will give plenty of warning before you do and real damage, if you can't hear it get the Ipod out of your head! I still run a RD350, It's a two stroke sickness | ||
| Motorfish |
Well my motor is finally apart, and we found the oil pump drive gear ground down to nothing, which I already knew. There was some shavings in the cam chest. The front cylinder was removed and the piston, and cylinder look ok. The front rod play is ok too. The rear cylinder will be removed tomorrow. Sorry I don`t have no picts. I will keep posting the outcome, though. | ||
| Tootal |
Thanks for the update! | ||
| Motorfish |
Rear cylinder removed today, and it all looks ok. The bad news is that the pinion shaft run out is .005. It was measured close to the bearing, and out by the cam cover, same measurement. My mechanic says it should be about .001. This sounds like it is way out, which is why the gear was destroyed. From what I know, I have the updated gear, which was bronze or something non-ferrous, because nothing was stuck to the drain plug. My question now is do I have that crank removed, and trued, or do I need a new crank? If .005 is a factory tolerance, that stinks, and why buy a new one that is just as bad, or worse. That don`t make sense. I also hear it is a good idea to have the crank pin welded, as its a press fit. I don`t recall reading about anyone on this board with a bad oil pump gear, with the updated gear. Anyone have any input? Thanks ahead of time. Oh yeah, I`m really PISSED! 17k miles!! Always ran synthetic oil, changed it by the book. The only good thing is that when the motor comes apart, we can clean out the contaminated oil. I do have to flush the swingarm, which is going to be a pain. |
