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Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2012 - 11:04 am: | 
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Agreed, I don't think it's possible with the lead acid / AGM technology. |
Spacecapsule1
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2012 - 11:17 am: |
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don't know if i missed it somewhere but is the bike in neutral when you try to start it? my neutral switch at the bar is bad... so i have to keep it in neutral to start it. |
Uly_man
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2012 - 11:48 am: |
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It should be charging at no more than 14.4v and a fully charged AGM battery is 12.7v. Thats with a meter thats working right. If the battery is reading 16.5v then your meter is out and thats not an uncommon problem. See the Buell sheet here.
"I hear one click from the fuse box, then nothing. That relay isn't prone to failure, is it?" Yes it is. It is a well known and common problem. It may not cure the problem though as other factors could be involved.
"Put it on a rapid charger overnight and give it a go." This is ok on a car but not a bike battery. Use a 1 amp or less electronic charger. High/rapid chargers can and do damage the battery. I use a 700 Ma charger and it will charge the HD OEM AGM battery from 90% flat to a full charge in two hours. I even use it to charge my BMW cars 800CCA battery with no problems.
Li-Ion is a good idea but the way they are charged is not like a Ni-Cad or Ni-Mh. What its like on a bike or bike charger I do not know. One thing for sure is that they charge VERY fast, can get VERY hot and can explode because of this. A Li-Po battery is even worse. If it is a bike specific battery then I guess it would be fine.
The 06 bike is always "lazy" to start and it does not take much to run it down before you get that "clicking" thing. Charge the battery off the bike and follow the Buell sheet on the charge level. It will go down to about 12.5v but any less then it is not holding its charge. As an example I still have my 06 HD OEM AGM battery and it STILL holds a 12.7v charge for months on end off the bike. Do not do what I did and pay out for one only to find the problem was something else. A problem that cost nothing to fix at the end of the day.
(Message edited by uly_man on April 05, 2012) |
Rays
| | Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2012 - 11:07 pm: |
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In order to keep your sanity here I suggest that you focus on the starting issue and not get sidetracked with the charging side of things.
With a charged battery the engine should crank even if the stator and regulator were removed from the bike. Let's face it, during cranking the charging system is doing squat so the first issue to track here is why the starter isn't cranking with a charged battery fitted?
The high current paths (both positive and negative) for the starter can be an issue but you say that all you get is a single click from the start relay. That implies the starter motor solenoid isn't getting powered so the starter isn't drawing any current so the high current paths wouldn't seem the first choice here.
I will try and cover all of the things to look for with a start relay issue so bear with me - some of these you may have already done.
When the starter button is pushed +12volts is provided to the start relay under the seat. In the picture below (taken from the LH side of the bike) I have removed the start relay and identified which sockets connect the relay winding to power and ground.
[Depending on how thick your multimeter probes are you may have to use something like a resistor or capacitor lead, small diameter wire or similar to get contact to these sockets.]
With the ignition and kill switch ON you should read +12volts (battery voltage) on the 'POWER' socket when the start button is pushed. If not, then the wiring to/from the start button on the RH handlebar needs to be checked but in your case the click of this relay would seem to indicate you have this part of the operation working.
With the ignition OFF you can measure the resistance from the 'GROUND' socket to the battery ground and depending on the type of meter you have you might or might not get a resistance reading because the path to ground is via that diode that is visible on the far left of the picture. If you pull the clutch in you should see the resistance drop to something like 0.5 ohms as the clutch interlock switch provides a ground.
If you are getting this low reading with the clutch pulled in, the one test I would do is to try starting the engine with the clutch pulled in (even if you are in neutral) to eliminate any issues with the interlock diode / neutral switch (obviously with the relay refitted).
If it does start (or at least try to by cranking the starter motor) then you will need to check the diode, neutral switch (not unheard of failure to have them go resistive to the point of causing start relay issues) or associated wiring.
Again this seems unlikely because of the described symptom of a single click from the start relay.
Assuming this is all OK then the relay itself needs to be eliminated and that is dead easy. The relay immediately above the start relay in the picture is the AUX relay and can be borrowed to test the starter function as the bike will start quite happily without it.
If you still have no action from the starter then the next step is to check to see if the starter soleniod actually operates. In the photo above the large contact to the immediate right of the 3 horizontal contacts is connected to the starter solenoid. If you connect a wire from that point to the positive battery connection the starter solenoid should pull in. Be careful here as the starter will also crank if you hold it long enough and would require good connections to actually bypass the relay manually. Just touching this momentarily will tell you whether or not the starter solenoid pulls in (with a very loud click).
If it does then check the +12 volts that should be present on the R/H large contact and in turn provided to the starter solenoid by the start relay - that power is provided by the Keyswitch relay so potentially another relay to swap with the AUX.
If I have mis-interpreted the symptoms then that is probably all academic. If the click you describe is really the starter soleniod and it clicks (large clack should be more like it) but the starter doesn't crank and the battery voltage doesn't drop then you are looking for a resistive path.
Vern described a common problem with the battery terminal bolts being slightly longer than they should be.
The ground return from the battery to the engine is convoluted on the Uly and relies on the frame/subframe physical contact as well as the main engine flexible earth strap located on the upper engine tie bar.
I have used a single car jumper lead from the battery ground to a point on the engine when troubleshooting this side of things on an XB.
Sorry about the 'War and Peace' post but hopefully there is something there that can help. My '06 has given me the rounds of the kitchen on several electrical issues over the years but having worked through those it remains the love of my life so don't lose faith yet!
Please feel free to PM me if you like. |
Contender
| | Posted on Monday, April 23, 2012 - 02:57 am: |
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Thanks all for the help. A very very big thanks to Rays. I bypassed the relay and the bike turned over. So I am replacing the relays and will then check the wiring between the starter button and the relays. I FINALLY feel like this is almost behind me.
If you connect a wire from that point to the positive battery connection the starter solenoid should pull in. Be careful here as the starter will also crank if you hold it long enough and would require good connections to actually bypass the relay manually. Just touching this momentarily will tell you whether or not the starter solenoid pulls in (with a very loud click). |
Contender
| | Posted on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 11:08 pm: |
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So with between the relays and the VR it now starts!!! Sounds so so sweet.
Buuuut, then the check engine light came on and stayed on. It will go off if I rev to near the redline, but it comes back on in fairly short order. If it makes any difference, the lights brighten as I rev the engine.
Anxious to ride, but not anxious to get stranded. Any help will be greatly appreciated. |
Griffmeister
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 12:09 am: |
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If the CEL came on, then check for codes. You're right, it's best to have everything cleared or identified as a non-issue before venturing too far. The ride is more enjoyable when you have peace of mind. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 11:54 am: |
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Contender, I resolved a similar problem on my 2007 Uly. I had two simultaneous problems.
First, the actual wire from the starter switch was broken inside the insulation right where it goes around the steering head. This was my fault, I put in an aftermarket horn and bound part of the wiring harness under the flyscreen. It is supposed to have a good 5 inches of space it can flex with, my horn stole at least three of those inches. That tighter radius exceeded youngs modulus, and the result was inevitable and self induced.
I traced the wires from the schematic to the starter button (took pinging a couple of wires from the switch as I couldn't find them on the schematic) but it narrowed it down to two wires, and the second one was indeed broken in the harness. Easy fix.
The second problem was the big ground strap that goes across the rear motor mount heim joint. I had replaced that rear head due to crash damage, and that strap got buried and I neglected to hook back up both ends. It would bounce around and sometimes be a frame ground, and other times be floating. |
Jraice
| | Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 04:17 pm: |
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Sorry to resurrect an old thread but having a very similar problem and posted my own thread about it, although this one seems to have a lot more information flowing throughout. When connecting the middle vertical connection to the battery I got a nice spark (burnt the wire end entirely) and a loud sound, guess the solenoid is good! I also swapped to the aux although given that it was clicking I don't think its the relay. I will check that 12V is going to the relay, although again, its clicking so I think the ignition switch is working.
Whats the next logical step? What would prevent the solenoid from being tripped? When you hit the key switch to start the bike, what exactly is happening besides the solenoid being activated (basically, when I connected them, why didn't the bike start entirely).
Also, anything I should be checking on the other relays?
Thanks! |
Jraice
| | Posted on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 06:10 pm: |
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Just did all the checks above and found that everything works except the voltage on the R/H most vertical side of the starter relay, hence the solenoid not getting any juice when the starter is pressed.
Going to check all the relevant fuses when removed from the bike but otherwise don't have many thoughts on what to check and really don't look forward to spending $100's to have a tech look at it. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 10:26 am: |
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So would that be the wire from the starter button to relay? That was one of my two problems, it was not hard to find and was exactly where I expected (right down around the steering head where the wire bends to go under the frame).
The factory schematic wasn't quite complete (it didn't tell me which of 4 wires were which coming off that right hand switch cluster), but it was only 4 wires, so not a big deal to ping them out or just check all four of them.
I could easily feel the break just by flexing the wire along it's length with my fingers. Where the copper is broken, it will crease and fold. If the copper is solid, it will bend in a curve.
I caused it by putting in a big horn behind that brace, and keeping the upper part of that wire bundle from being able to flex. |
Jraice
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 09:14 pm: |
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I get the 12V from the top and bottom horizontal tabs when I press the starer so I don't think its the connection to the handlebar. Its the output of the relay, which gives 12V to the solenoid when the relay is triggered. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 10:52 pm: |
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Powder Keg HD has a solenoid rebuild kit in stock from when I ordered it and found out I didn't need it, FWIW.  |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 10:53 pm: |
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A bad ground will cause it to only partially trigger the solenoid as well... if that helps. |
Jraice
| | Posted on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 11:38 pm: |
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The solenoid works just fine when bypassing the relay straight to the battery. Not sure how a bad battery could cause zero voltage to go to the relays power supply but I am going to try a new one (could use it anyways) in hopes of that solving the issue, otherwise I really don't even know where to begin and don't want to start tearing wires off the bike. I can't imagine how such a critical wire could've failed just from the bike sitting around so I am hoping its the battery, although the results of Rays tests don't make it seem likely. |
Rays
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 05:43 am: |
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Sorry, I haven't been on for a couple of days - if you don't have the 12volts at the R/H socket of the Start relay then that is supplied via the keyswitch relay. The current path for the starter solenoid comes via the 30amp main fuse, to pin 30 on the Keyswitch relay. When the keyswitch relay is energised (power that comes via the ignition switch) pin 30 is connected to pin 87 on the Keyswitch relay via the internal contacts and pin 87 of the keyswitch relay is wired to pin 30 on the Start relay. Pin 30 of the Start relay is the R/H socket where the measurement above is referring to.
The Keyswitch relay is the one in the top R/H position in my photo. The contacts are arranged opposite to the Start relay (ie 180 degrees). So what you should measure on this relay is 12 volts on the Leftmost large contact (pin 30) at all times with the battery connected (and the 30amp fuse in place). You should also measure zero ohms between the rightmost large contact on the Keyswitch relay (pin 87) and the rightmost large contact on the Start relay (pin 30).
This shows the pin numbering of the relay so is the mirror image of the sockets shown.
The keyswitch relay is powered from the ignition switch (+12 volts to pin 86) so you can check that as well.
If that hasn't sounded like complete and utter techno-babble then that should let you make some progress without buying a new battery just yet. Please feel free to PM me if you want. |
Jraice
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 09:47 am: |
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Thanks, guess that'll give me some more stuff to investigate but also sounds like if any of those 3 relays are bad the entire package won't work. Any way to test the relays (they all click) or should I possibly bite the bullet and get all three?
Also, if I am getting power to the keyswitch and ignition, but not the starter, that means all the potential wiring problems are isolated to the area near the relay box?
Thanks for the help! |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 10:42 am: |
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Jraice,
Pull the relays and check them according to Ray's diagram. They either are good or they aren't. |
Jraice
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 06:18 pm: |
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Would 30 on the ignition relay also have a constant 12V output that powers the key switch relay?
Sounds like the next thing to check is the key switch relays constant 12V and if thats working and a couple of different relays don't do anything in the starter then its off to the shop (or a new battery first)! |
Jraice
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 09:03 pm: |
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It runs! Well, not exactly... Connecting pin 30 of the key switch relay to 87 of the starter relay with a thick enough wire to handle the current started the bike... Thats a relief...
But I had no continuity between 87 on the key switch and 30 on the starter...
I have to say though, I think there is a FLAW in the wiring scheme you are mentioning. The key switch relay is closed (87-30 connected) when you turn the key on, even with ignition off, correct? This would mean the bike could start with the ignition off, no? You alluded to it going ignition-key switch-starter (from 30-87 on each I imagine) for supplying power to solenoid, but wouldn't key switch-igniition-starter make a lot more sense?
Either way, I'll figure that out, but how does the wiring from one relay female connector to the next work? Is it all local and easy to trace?
Feeling close |
Jraice
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 11:35 pm: |
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Blown light fuse (no more spares)... The fuse is interestingly connected directly to the starter relay (whats not working) and indirectly to the key switch relay. Think I might be onto something! Tempted to jump it to verify but would hate to blow something more than just a fuse. EDIT: The wiring diagram confirms my thoughts, the fuse goes directly to the #30 connection of the starter relay, the one that powers the solenoid!
(Message edited by jraice on May 15, 2012)
(Message edited by jraice on May 16, 2012) |
Rays
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 07:25 am: |
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Quote:
I have to say though, I think there is a FLAW in the wiring scheme you are mentioning. The key switch relay is closed (87-30 connected) when you turn the key on, even with ignition off, correct? This would mean the bike could start with the ignition off, no?"
I assume that when you refer to the ignition off you are referring to the kill switch? Well, the kill switch also controls the power available to the start relay so while you are correct in saying there is power available to pin 30 on the start relay there is no power to energise the relay when the killswitch is 'Off'.
I think you have mis-understood what I was trying to explain. I actually did say that the power from the 30A fuse went keyswitch - start relay - solenoid but in an around-about way?
Anyway, by jumping from pin 30 on the keyswitch relay (+12 volts) to pin 87 on the start relay connected directly to the starter solenoid and bypassed both relays. So, starter is OK and battery is OK.
If you have no continuity between pin 30 on the start relay to pin 87 on the keyswitch relay then you have a smoking gun. This should be a relatively short wire running between the two relay bases. Can you see the female sockets clearly in the relay bases? The one thing I have seem once before is one of the female sockets that wasn't locked into place in the plastic base and it had been pushed back by the relay being fitted.
While it isn't impossible, it seems unlikely to have multiple major electrical faults unless there is something else in the mix. I would leave the light fuse out for the moment and focus on the starting issue as the bike will start and run without that in place. |
Jraice
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 09:55 am: |
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According to the wiring diagram the light fuse is in series with (and the first thing before) the wire that goes to the #30 port of the starter relay,which would cause the exact issue I am experiencing. I really do believe it is this fuse, but if you have reason to believe otherwise, I am all ears. We will know for sure by 6pm tonight when I get off work and grab a new one! |
Buewulf
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 10:35 am: |
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Haha. I find myself reading this thread like a tense novel, cheering the hero on. Hopefully this story has a happy ending.
OK, that's all. I have nothing useful or clever to offer. Keep at it and good luck! I know your grief. |
Rays
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 12:17 pm: |
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We must be looking at different wiring diagrams. On my Uly the light fuse is connected to pin 87A on the Start relay. That is the NC (normally Closed) contact that connects to pin 30 when the relay isn't energised (and supplies power to the lights).
When the starter is cranked that contact is opened (and the lights are turned off) and pin 30 is connected to pin 87 which should supply power to the starter solenoid.
If you have a different wiring set-up then obviously all my attempts to help have been a waste of your time. My apologies. |
Uly_man
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 12:41 pm: |
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"We must be looking at different wiring diagrams. On my Uly the light fuse is connected to pin 87A on the Start relay. That is the NC (normally Closed) contact that connects to pin 30 when the relay isn't energised (and supplies power to the lights).
When the starter is cranked that contact is opened (and the lights are turned off) and pin 30 is connected to pin 87 which should supply power to the starter solenoid." Yep thats how it works.
I have not gone through all of this thread but try this. The first thing is that this relay is a very common problem. Change it out for a new one. Cheap, easy and some carry a spare. The second is just because a relay "clicks" that does not mean that it may be working right. Burnt/dirty/bent contacts cause high resistance = lower volts and/or current and will cause problems.
Trust me Guys its a fact and can cause no end of problems. |
Jraice
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 08:45 pm: |
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Rays, don't know how the 2006 bike is wired but my schematic is for the Uly and Lighting, 2009 year. The light fuse goes to 30. And IT RUNS! All it was was a fuse, wish I had checked them by pulling them out last week instead of just testing the top of them... |
Rays
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 09:49 pm: |
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Glad to ear that it worked - I made the fatal assumption that you were dealing with a 2006 Uly so all my directions would have been complete BS for a 2009.
The movie Cool Hand Luke springs to mind. 
I just went and looked in my 2009 Electrical manual and you are right about the lights fuse. Completely different to the 2006 in that area.
In fact, the fuse shouldn't be labelled 'Lights', it should be 'Lights/ Starter Solenoid' or similar. I think I might add a little label to my '09 fusebox as a reminder.
I should have established that the thread had taken a swerve away from the original 2006 Uly issue and the irony is that I have both a 2006 and a 2009 bikes to do measurements etc.
(Message edited by Rays on May 16, 2012) |
Uly_man
| | Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 12:42 pm: |
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Something else you may wish to consider. The electrical contacts on the base of this type of block can become "pushed down" or part pushed "out of the block". This can happen for a number of reasons. You can then find all is ok at one time but not another due to the loose contact. Yes I have had that one before as well and many other weird ones as well. |
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