| Author | Message | ||
     Maru |
Here i an interesting interview with BMW's motorcycle CEO. http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20110426# pg49 Both companies have long histories with loyal customer bases. Both companies are able to charge a premium for their product, presumably at least in part because of these histories. Both companies have faced resistance when straying from their traditional offerings. BMW during the last few years has broadened the scope of it offerings while HD has concentrated on its core. BMW purchased Husky while HD shut down Buell. One company is run by an enthusiast that understands the motorcycle market the other is run by a bean counter. Note which one is doing better. | ||
| Syonyk |
Wow. That's a totally different read from what one gets out of Wandell. Competent, understands the market he's playing in, and seems to have a very strategic outlook on "How can we make the best bikes we can - that people will buy?" I found his comments on the 600 market disappearing interesting - is that true? I've not payed much attention to that particular realm. But between BMW, Triumph, Ducati, KTM, and some others, I certainly can see the possibility of the "Decade of European Bikes." Now we need the "Decade of American Bikes."  | ||
| Moxnix |
Every time I go to my bank's ATM, the screen opens to a bit about financing vehicles with a picture of a Sportster, rather than a beeg twin. Wandell's target marketing could have been to younger Buell buyers. | ||
| Syonyk |
Right, but why market a lesser silly plastic thing when you can just get riders directly onto a Real American Motorcycle? Remember, Harley more or less treated Buell as "starter bikes" for Harleys. Kids would buy this silly plastic thing, and then when they grew up, they'd get tired of it and upgrade to a Real Motorcycle. You know, because going from 400 lbs & 100hp (or 150hp with the 1125s) to 750 lbs & 70hp is an upgrade. Or something. I've had sales guys at Harley dealerships ask me what I was going to do now that Buell was gone - would I upgrade to a Harley? Had Harley treated Buell as a separate line of bikes, not a "feeder line," and had dealerships actually gone along with this, it might have turned out differently. For both companies. I think the fundamental issue with Harley management is that they cannot understand that there are other motorcycle types out there, or why anyone would want to buy anything but a Harley. You can just upgrade a Harley to be whatever you want! You can put aftermarket suspension on it to make it "handle," you can put Screamin' Eagle parts on it to make it "fast," you can... etc. They're missing the fact that "handle" and "fast" and other metrics are only relevant when compared to a stock Harley. A "fast" Harley is still, for the most part, a really slow motorcycle. Same for handling. Yes, you can make a properly fast Harley - but they're few, far between, and heavily custom. The turbo Fatboy-based bike a local fabricator has is properly fast - 150hp/150tq, to the wheel, but it's more his than a Harley at this point. And younger riders overwhelmingly don't seem to be as drawn in by the "Real American Chrome" image. Harley isn't going to have good times ahead. | ||
| Moxnix |
That interview with Herman the German is insightful. Thanks for linking. The syndrome of "fear and loathing" at The Motor Company almost guarantees their myopia will play to the "world market" with their modern antiques. BMW, Triumph, Norton, the Italians, and Japanese, those are Erik Buell's peers, not the trikes and kitchen sink cruisers of yesterday. | ||
| Court |
>>>>Harley isn't going to have good times ahead. That's an accurate statement. Their stock, at it's current level, is tremendously overvalued. That's all I can say about that. | ||
| Flh03rider |
In 1971 when I returned from Vietnam, after spending a year and a half there, the first thing I did was buy XLH Sporty and from then on there was always an HD in the garage. (Still have the 1980 Sturgis that I bought new, not selling it.) When the Buells started to appear I thought they were pretty cool, an American sport bike and really liked what Buell was doing with the 9s and 12XBs but the cockpit was just too tight for me being almost 6'2". When the 1125Rs came out I test rode one and said "Holy Sugerjets" this bike is ficken awesome!!! In '08 I bought my 1125R and was very disappointed when Harley kicked Buell to the curb because the financial side of HD telling the dealers to write loans to anybody that had a pulse. The Buell is ubber fun but being how I ain't no 25 to 30 years old anymore I can't ride it all day like most of you young guns here. But because of the performance and handling of the Buell I started looking at other bikes that offered high end performance and long distance capability. I tested a bunch of bikes (new HDs too) but when I test rode the BMW K1300 GT and I was hooked. Sold the bagger and bought a new '10 K1300 GT. It is a fricken Cruise Missile and have spent many 10, 12, 14 hours straight riding it and even one 22 hour / 1300 mile jaunt to Idaho and back on the GT. The Buell spoiled me, opened my eyes, and pointed me in a new direction. If anybody from HD every checks in here I just want to say they dropped the ball and lost a valuable asset that would have brought a lot more innovative features and bikes to the family which equals new and younger customers. Ok, off the soap box now. (Message edited by flh03rider on May 07, 2011) (Message edited by flh03rider on May 07, 2011) | ||
| 2kx1 |
FLH , I agree with everything you say except that hd would never have let Buell do what they were capable of. A different tailsection and bars would have turned it into something similiar to a K1300, closer to a Duc ST. I think next year we will see what Erik has been up to. | ||
| Flh03rider |
2kx1 - actually I do agree with you about "hd would never have let Buell do what they were capable of". As I mentioned above "they (HD) dropped the ball and lost a valuable asset that would have brought a lot more innovative features and bikes to the family which equals new and younger customers." | ||
| Syonyk |
Yeah, but now they're free to focus on their core competencies and core group of riders! Who are overwhelmingly getting older... | ||
| Evil_hd |
...Hence the need to introduce factory tricycles. As their rider base continues to age, I half expect to see Harley-badged mobility scooters in the future, like the ones in supermarkets... | ||
| Steveford |
Why is it that Harlee owners are always scowling under their snot rags and the Buell riders always have a big grin under their full face helmets? I've been seeing a lot of new Beemers around here recently and they look really good. | ||
| Syonyk |
Well, given the "smack" a bug makes when it hits my helmet & smears bug guts all across my visor, I'd be pretty unhappy too if I'd just been nailed by a big one. Yeah, they've got windshields, but they only do so much. I rode an old CX500 with a Windjammer for quite a few years, and even with that monster fairing up front, I took bugs to my visor quite regularly. Bees were quite loud when they hit... | ||
| Saxon59 |
I wonder what would happen if someone came up with a "new"version of an American made sport touring bike,say with a v engine with great power and sound and excellent handling? check out the "Motus MST and MST-R". 1650cc V4 w/direct fuel injection.Check it out.. www.motusmotorcycles.com. | ||
| Syonyk |
Saxon: Yeah... that looks like a fascinating bike. Let me know when I can buy one. GDI is the way to go, and I really look forward to that in more bikes. | ||
| Wjcunning |
Nah, I have Beemers and Rice Rockets in the garage....the Buells are "alive", everything else is like riding a 500lb sewing machine. | ||
| Syonyk |
Yeah, but they're *nice* sewing machines... If I hadn't found a good dealership to help me with my 1125R issues, I'd probably have a garage full of BMWs instead of Buells. They're both great bikes, and a lot of the BMW riders I know make my 1200-1300 miles/mo look like I barely ride. For some of them, that's "a decent day's ride." | ||
| Xlcr |
That all sounds right and all, but Harley just released their latest sales figures, which not only are up a fair amount, but they claim that they are now number one in sales to women, Hispanics, and people in the 18-35 year-old bracket. If that's true, that confounds that whole story about Harley riders getting old and dying out. That did happen to one bike however, the Gold Wing. The Marysville Ohio factory was closed several years ago and now they only build them in small batches in a corner of a factory in Japan for the last few diehards. One thing is certainly true. The touring wars are over, the bagger won. The proof is in the copycats. Back in the '80s other companies were trying to compete with the Wing, now they all build bagger copies. | ||
| 46champ |
Watch it xlcr you don't want to confuse some of these people with facts. | ||
| Clutchreaper |
The only time I step into an HD dealer is when I need to pick up a part for the 1125 or it's getting repaired for something that I don't have the resources (tools, space) to do at home. But when I'm at a dealership it looks like their business is good and that there are plenty of young guys drinking the Kool-aid and drooling over a new HD. Xlcr is right, the Motor Co's figures are up. I don't think HD will one day become a fossil as long as they continue to sell the image and persona that they have been so good at marketing, which is badass-in-black. | ||
| Reepicheep |
They have a nice solid niche, and build some of the best bikes in that niche. The only real risk (and it's probably much bigger than they realize) is that they forget that they have a good niche, and think they control an industry, and grow themselves bigger than the niche can sustain, or over promise in order to keep a stock price up. | ||
| Carbonsteel |
When I sold my 06 Uly a few years back, I had every intention of buying another Buell. Then Harley kicked them to the curb. I went back to a Harley and found after riding the Buell that my new Heritage was a real pig. So, I sold it and I've been on a BMW ever since. I started with a GS and then moved over to a 99 RT. I've ridden some 20 different bikes over a 25 year period and the RT has been the most enjoyable, second only to the Uly! I don't see myself on a Harley in the near or long term future. Especially after they screwed me out of my warranty on a brand new bike...but that's another story. I plan on riding my RT for a couple more years and then maybe I'll start looking for a good used F800GS or K1200GT. I also can't wait to see what the new RT with the water cooled boxer looks like. It's a hell of an exciting time to be a BMW rider! | ||
| Steveford |
Remember HarLee's big push into India? A buddy from France wrote me yesterday with news that HarLee is NOT going to produce a sub-800cc machine for that market. I guess that what India and Asia really need is to get the populace on Fat Boys and Ultras. That should be interesting during the rainy season - maybe the P&A Division will offer a chrome winch with an evil skull on it? | ||
| Saxon59 |
There is an interesting article in the latest Cycle World mag about bikes with "Caracter".The author mentions his older Brit and Italian bikes and his Uly as having "caracter".I would have to agree,my M2 has "caracter",some of the other bikes I've owned were great bikes,dependable,comfortable,fast,great handling,but no "caracter". | ||
| Fast2win |
I sold Harleys back in the hey day 98-04. they hired me because I owned a S2 and needed someone to sell the Buells. Shortly after I bought a used ST1100 Honda. I took some ribbing from the Harley guys but at that time I paid 4500 bucs for it and could outrun any bagger, even the comfort was there. 700 mile days were easy. My Buell was sent to sport duty and long trips the ST.since then I've sold new beemers and jap bikes.The Beemer's with out a doubt have the baddest line up of any manufacturer. I now ride a 96 R/T which is the best all around bike I have owned. The new 1200/1300 GT and RT are even better. I have not rode a 1600GT yet but it looks awsome. And from the reviews I guess it is. I still love Buell, and hope he can build a line up 1/2 as good as BMW. I still wonder why nobody has built a true v twin sport tourer. I think the xb would be a great platform a little longer and 6 gals.of gas. I think ol Erik could build stiff competition for BMW. Most Harley guys would rather ride a jap cruiser based off of looks than a beemer. I love seeing EBR and BMW in superbike it's been a great year. Go EBR | ||
| Stealthbobber |
I love sport bikes and I love Harleys but BMW, short of the S1000, is just bleh. When I think of a BMW I think of a 45-50 year old corporate desk jockey riding some stupid generic looking BMW all stiff backed and awkward. And when you converse about riding he has nice boring/bland stories about his long trip to some stupid bed and breakfast. And of course the bike is a garage queen. Ain't got no class or edge. Sure they may run more efficiently or whatever but they're just bleh. | ||
| Eric_h |
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha...  Thank God for those oblivious, wolf-shirt and doo-rag adorned Americans among you who are shepherded through their 2-wheeled lives by the "Almighty MoCo". For were it not for them, would the true motorcycling "individualists" populating Europa have sooo much less to smile coyly about and shake our heads at. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Well, we can all be thankful that there is no one in Europe more focused on looking like a rider rather than actually being a rider. What a relief!  | ||
| Stealthbobber |
Yeah it's a shame I care more about riding than just numbers on a dyno. I apologize I don't share your European sense of connoisseurship in refined and modernized motorcycles. Doubtless my bobber and its inefficient 45 degree carburated v-twin hardly compares to such a sewing machine as a BMW. You can smile coyly all you want and shake your head but don't forget you're on a Buell forum, AMERICAN motorcycles. I suppose we can't all wear scarves and sit by our brand new sport touring bikes at a picturesque cafe in the alps, but at least I can turn my nose up right back at the nose turners. Keep in mind that personally I'm a walking contradiction. I love Harleys and will to the day I die but I also love sport bikes- especially Buells. I suppose being a 20 year old lies in the middle of the whole thing. I get tired of people on both sides of the coin, and after HD shut down Buell it got worse. The BMW "enthusiasts" I just described I cannot stand, and I also can't stand the "wolf shirt doo rag" riders either. Just keep in mind people that no matter who you are you subscribe to a clique, whether you realize it or not. I listen to rockabilly and have a bobbed sportster and a leather jacket. But I also listen to techno, have a buell 1125r, and a textile jacket to go with it lol. These two tastes are polar opposite, so it's always funny for me because I have two different groups of riders I have to hang out with. They sneer at each other and I always have to be the mediator. | ||
| Fast2win |
Stealthbobber, your opinion of beemer riders is surely, twisted due to your youth and inexperience. Poke your nose at the odometer of your average beemer and you are more likely to see a bike with higher mileage than any other brand that I have seen. And I been riding longer than you are old. I urge you to go to your closest BMW shop ride a K12-13GT and come back and tell me bleh. 150mph on a touring bike is anything but. If you actually talk to some of them instead of imaging what their like you'll see. The average beemer guy has has a lot of experience riding all types of bike's. Most Harley guy's can't see past the look of a Beemer and will never try it, or a sport bike. At least you can ride both. I have faith that EBR will build new adventure touring bike that will bring back the rider's. A Uly with the rotax motor is a good start. That is actually a bike that I can tell you from experience, beemer guys will surely like. But he needs to do even more. Which I'm certain in time he will do. From my perspective, a full sport tourer would be awsome. A full fairing with all the accessories, electric windshield bluetooth,grips etc. An EBR-T if you will. If you ask Erik Buell which brand he would like to emulate I'm sure he would say BMW. |
