| Author | Message | |||||
     Guambra2001 |
I am coming up due on my first oil change at 6k miles. I want to do it myself and I already purchased a filter from EBR store. Now the question, on the AMSOIL website it recommends 20w-50 synthetic motorcycle oil for 11.90 per quart; can I use synthetic oil found at most auto zones with the same 20w-50? Does it make a difference? I have a 09 1125CR, let me know hat you guys think. | |||||
| Syonyk |
You don't want to run an automotive synthetic in a motorcycle. They have friction modifiers that can cause clutch slippage and other stuff. Plus, most of them are formulated with very low amounts of Good Stuff (wear reducing metals) to keep car catalytic converters happy. You should be fine with any *motorcycle* synthetic oil. Mobil 1 makes some good stuff. Also, I know some people swear by diesel oil in motorcycles, but I don't know much about that. However, a *very* good reason to support Amsoil is that they support EBR.  You're not going to save much by going with Mobil 1 synthetic motorcycle oil over Amsoil, and you shouldn't put car oil in the bike. So buy Amsoil & let the people you're buying from know that you're supporting them because they support EBR. | |||||
| Dktechguy112 |
Amsoil all the way! Go find a local amsoil dealer, I get my amsoil for $10/quart. Bike shifts much better with amsoil, you will notice that. | |||||
| Rogue_biker |
Yup. Use motorcycle specific oil. Automotive oils are not always compatible especially with wet clutches and higher rev ceilings of motorcycle oils. | |||||
| Timebandit |
As a rule, all of the car oils suck due to EPA mandates on ZDDP (cat preservation) and CAFE. EPA set a maximum limit on the ZDDP additive packs to protect catalytic converters, and mandated the use of lightweight oils & friction modifiers to enhance CAFE. As a result, car oils have been largely compromised. This is very true for 20 & 30-weight oils, and even for some of the 40-weight products. As a rule, all of the car oils suck due to EPA mandates on ZDDP (cat preservation) and CAFE. Amsoil has a good reputation, but I just can't bring myself to buy into a multi-level marketing product when it comes to oil, so I'm not an Amsoil guy. Well, that's not the only reason -- I bought a pallet of Mobil1 15w50 back in the red cap days, when it was truly a fully synthetic oil, and I'm still working my way through it. I've been running the same lot of old M1 15w50 in several wet clutch bikes for over a decade. Never a problem. My understanding is that the friction modifiers can be identified by the "energy conserving" band on the API logo. You don't want any product that's labelled as "energy conserving" for a bike. AFAIK those "friction modifiers" are not in the current M1 15w50. I wouldn't hesitate to use it. It's quite a bit cheaper than V-twin 20w50 and the racing oils, but the additive packs in V-twin and the M1 Racing oils are truly outstanding. The HDEO (heavy duty engine oil) products marketed for diesels have a strong reputation in bikes. They are exempt from the EPA regulations regarding ZDDP and cats, and the EPA regulations regarding CAFE. M1 TurboDiesel Truck 5w40 should fit the bill, but it does not cite JASO MA compliance. Neither did the shell products until recently. Now Shell Rotella T6 synthetic 5w40 meets JASO MA, as does Shell Rotella Triple Protection 15w40 mineral oil. It's pretty hard to find published specs from Shell about their additive packs, and shear data on their oils. There are lots of good anecdotal experience with these products. Mobil1 is a lot more forthcoming. Here's an interesting PDF on Mobil1 oils. Looking at it, you can see that all energy conserving oils for cars have been emasculated. All car oil additive packs suck. (Thank you Mr. EPA!) You do NOT want to put car oil in your bike. The truck oils and 50 weight oils are exempt from some of the additive pack restrictions. Their additive packs are much better.
M1 50 weight oils are king when it comes to shear stability.
The good news is that M1 15w50, M1 V-twin, Rotella T6 and Rotella Triple Protection are available at Wal-Mart. (Check the Wal-Mart website for store availability if you want V-twin.) Most auto stores keep the M1 Motorcycle Racing or Valvoline motorcycle oils in stock. (Message edited by timebandit on April 24, 2012) | |||||
| Guambra2001 |
Thanks guys, i will buy AMSOIL no matter what just wanted to know if there was a difference between car and motorcycle oil. Thanks for the vast amount of knowledge. | |||||
| Dannybuell |
regular Amsoil 20w50 states approximately "JSMO (wet clutches)". | |||||
| Reepicheep |
If you wonder, just pick an oil of the appropriate viscosity, run it for a conservative interval (2000 miles should be safe even if the oil ain't great), and send it to Blackstone labs for analysis.... they charge $20 or so, and will tell you everything about the state of the oil, and a few nice things about the state of your engine. If I had an 1125, I'd be looking at the Rotella T (triple) with shorter change intervals (like 2500 miles). I use the stuff in my Saab (oil and water cooled turbo) with good luck. I would get the analysis though, to make sure it's not getting fried and loosing it's viscosity by that milage. If it is, you need to go with a true full synthetic (which are getting really pricey these days). | |||||
| Timebandit |
To me, it's all about the 1125 oil rapidly accumulating clutch debris. Last weekend I made the rounds at Wal-Mart, Sam's Club, and my local auto parts wholesale supplier to do some comparison shopping. (Local wholesale supply carries my favorite uber-oil, the total/true-synth Delvac1.) Here's a spreadsheet with prices:
As you can see, Delvac 1 is pretty pricey, right up there with M1 V-twin. Rotella T6 5w40 is JASO-MA compliant and intermediate in cost. No surprise that it's popular for this application. M1 15w50 is about the same price but isn't cited as JASO-MA. (I think that it really is, but M1 wants you to buy V-twin.) Rotella T Triple Protection only costs $2.99 quart in the 5 gallon case. It's JASO-MA compliant. I've only used the top tier oils in my 1125, and I'm not getting the extended OCI (oil change interval) that it takes to make using them worthwhile; the accumulation of clutch debris is so rapid that I have to change the oil to get rid of the clutch waste before the oil has served it's service life. In my case, the contaminants are accumulating faster than the oil is wearing out. I've decided that I am so offended by the rapid accumulation of clutch debris in 1125 oil that I'd rather go with short OCI and a cheaper HDEO, than long OCI and a more expensive synthetic HDEO. To me, getting the extended OCI isn't worth it if you have to tolerate accumulating clutch debris along the way. This means that my 1125 is likely going to be switched over from M1 to Rotella T Triple Protection 15w50 at the next OCI. I've already bought the oil. (I replace at 2000 miles.) | |||||
| Timebandit |
My faith in Blackstone isn't that great. There are a number of things about them that bother me. 1. We all know that they have VOA (virgin oil analysis) records on-file for every common oil, but they refuse to disclose them to you for reference. They want you to send in a sample of your unused oil for VOA, and a sample of your used oil for UOA, effectively doubling your cost. IMO that's just profiteering at your expense. 2. I've seen lots of variability in the VOA test results from Blackstone, where TBN and ZDDP numbers for premium synthetics are wildly inconsistent. When I see this, the obvious question that comes up is, "Who is responsible for this variability?" The answer is simple. Either the oil manufacturers are incapable of manufacturing a uniform product with uniform addition of additives from one batch to the next, or the testing lab's equipment is so poorly calibrated that they're not capable of reporting consistent results on VOA samples. This could explain why Blackstone doesn't want to give away their VOA results for reference. 3. Blackstone's pricing requires you to pay extra for titration of total alkalinity, which makes the test price higher than $20. I have a friend who is sending an array of spiked samples to Blackstone to test their ability to accurately measure some key parameters in a totally blind fashion. Should be interesting... I also found out recently that Petro truck stops have a UOA service that's inexpensive. I don't know much about it though. | |||||
| Thefleshrocket |
M1 15W50 is NOT shear stable. In ~3000 miles in my 1125R and my Daytona 675, it sheared down to a 30-weight. No fuel contamination to blame, either. I've switched all my bikes to Amsoil 10W40 and will do UOAs at the next change. (Fall 2013--I go two years on OCIs.) | |||||
| Timebandit |
Is that the current commercially available M1 15W50 that is made from Grp II/III base stock, or a 15-year old bottle of the "real" synthetic (PAO Grp IV) Mobil 1? I think that the PAO stuff that you can't get any more really is a lot more shear stable that what you can get today. The problem is that they haven't made that stuff in a long time ... not since ExxonMobil lost the argument about what "synthetic" really means. Once everyone became able to use the term "full synthetic", it wasn't cost effective to sell PAO oils that cost more to make compared to the other lesser base stock oils that were now calling themselves "fully synthetic." Today synthetic is nothing more than a marketing term. Too bad the word "synthetic" doesn't mean the same thing in advertising terms that it means to organic chemists. That indistinction makes it a lot harder for a consumer to be sure what he's buying. | |||||
| Pariah |
OP: not sure if it's included with the EBR's K&N filter, but you're gonna need a fresh O-ring. You'll also need and a couple new washers for the two oil drain plugs. Oil change on the 1125R I find quite messy, so beware! | |||||
| Avalaugh |
I find Silkolene's website very helpful, ive always used there products too. Change my oil every 3500miles. http://www.silkolene.com/index.php?calling=prodsea rch&sub=1 | |||||
| Avalaugh |
Category name : Motorcycles, Scooters, Mopeds, Quads (ATV) Make : Buell Model : 1125 (2008 - ) Type : 1125R (2008 - ) Engine/transmission 6 · Capacity : Capacity 2,8 liter · Use : Normal (preferred) · Intervals : Change 10000 km · Product : SILKOLENE COMP 4 10W-40 : SILKOLENE COMP 4 20W-50 : SILKOLENE SUPER 4 10W-40 : SILKOLENE SUPER 4 20W-50 · Use : Normal (alternative) · Intervals : Change 10000 km · Product : SILKOLENE PRO 4 PLUS 10W-50 : SILKOLENE PRO 4 15W-50 : SILKOLENE COMP 4 15W-50 Hydraulic clutch system · Use : Normal · Intervals : Change 24 months · Product : MAINTAIN DOT 4 Hydraulic brake system · Use : Normal · Intervals : Change 24 months · Product : MAINTAIN DOT 4 Cooling system · Capacity : Capacity 3 liter · Use : Normal · Intervals : Change 40000 km · Product : SILKOLENE PRO COOL Front fork · Use : Normal · Intervals : Change 40000 km · Product : Special Product | |||||
| Pariah |
Avalaugh: out of curiosity, which of these Silkolenes do you actually use? | |||||
| Avalaugh |
. (Message edited by Avalaugh on April 28, 2012) | |||||
| Avalaugh |
I use pro 4 but the 15-50 in the Buell  | |||||
| Pariah |
Thanks. Silkolene is good stuff (or so says Keith Code). I have tried the Pro 4 Plus 10W-50 (supposedly the "ultimate" formulation), but at $15 per liter it is not cheap! | |||||
| Glide |
I have had the opportunity to question some very knowledgeable people in the lubrication field thru work. One thing that comes out was that all the major oil companies produce a good product. Most get their base stocks from only a few suppliers and add their own additive packages. For instance Royal Purple uses Mobil synthetic for their base then adds their additives and markets it as Synerlac. Few of the smaller companies have their own refineries. One thing several techs caution about is buying large amounts of synthetic oil on sale and using it over several years since the additives want to separate after a year or so. One of the high end oil companies solved this problem and when we pinned the rep down he finally admitted the way they solved it was to add a little regular oil to the mix. Oil is one issue every one has an opinion on but unless you tear your motor down and measure parts for wear with different products you really don't know what product is the best. I have access to an oil lab at work and the reason the testing labs want a sample of the oil that went in the motor is to have an exact read out of what the oil in your batch was that went into the motor for comparison purposes. We filter our bulk oils out of the barrel before use and test tanker oils before acceptance. One sample I took in at a oil change was one of every ones favorites and it was the worst oil for contamination that our oil guy had ever seen out of a sealed plastic bottle. Needless to say I will not ever use that oil again. | |||||
| Avalaugh |
Name and shame then | |||||
| Nobuell |
Timebandit, You stated above the you will start using Rotella T Triple Protection 15w50. I did not see 15w50 listed as available. Are you planing to use 40 weight for your short OCIs? | |||||
| Timebandit |
Silly me. I meant to say Rotella Triple Protection 15w40 (diesel oil) for the short OCIs. I just bought a 5gal box at Sam's Club for $2.99/quart. At that price, I'll just keep dumping it every 2000 miles. I'm kinda surprised that a manufacturer's rep would say that their product separates out within a year. That kind of destroys the appeal of extended OCI product, doesn't it? I'm thinking that an engine has to be a darned good oil mixing device -- probably mixes a lot more vigorously than whatever they use to blend the stuff in production, which casts doubt on the claims about additives "separating out." This makes me wonder if the rep just doesn't want people stocking up when his product is on sale... that could hurt his profits. I also have trouble believing that the answer to formulating a good synthetic oil is to blend it with a cheaper mineral oil base or additive. To me that sounds like someone's making up excuses for why less expensive GRP II/III blends are better than the more expensive fully synthetic GRP IV products, in an effort to justify why some companies are selling lesser "synthetic" products that are based on Grp II/III base stocks. FWIW I'm still using bottles from the same batch of M1 15w50 that I bought in the 1990s and I've never noticed any problems with separation or abnormal results on used oil analysis on oil-cooled engines that run very hot. Back then M1 proclaimed that the GRP IV PAO product was stable for years, which is in contrast to the GRP II/III products that they now recommend being changed out at yearly intervals. It bothers me when the stories keep changing to make whatever they're selling now sound better than the stuff they used to make -- even though we know that a lot of companies are selling less expensive, highly refined Grp II/III mineral oils at a lower price than the Grp IV POA oils that they used to sell, while they claim the cheaper oils are better. I have my doubts on that. | |||||
| Timebandit |
forgot to mention -- if anyone wants to go comparision shopping for oils, there is a spec that's worth looking at: HTHS viscosity number. that's a measure of high temerature / high shear viscosity retention. It's the industry standard test for shear stability. Most oils don't publish that number, but it's right there on the M1 15w50 spec sheet, and performance results are listed in the Amsoil white paper on oil testing. Both M1 and Amsoil products held up well. | |||||
| Dannybuell |
Timebandit ~ Yes to group IV-100% ester oil. I read the Amsoil white paper years ago. I just went looking for it and couldn't find it on Amsoil's site. I wonder of the JDs had something going on? | |||||
| Timebandit |
Hmmm. I always thought that the API Specification said that GRP IV was only for PolyAlphaOlefins and that the API Grp V was a leftover term for everything not in groups I to IV, and that Grp V included all esters. Here is an interesting PDF on base stocks. It says that the API classifies esters as Grp V. http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief10%20-%20Oil%20Bas e%20Stocks.pdf Interestingly, it says that PAO Grp IV base stocks do indeed have problems solubilizing the additive packs because the GRP IV stocks are so hydrophobic, and that the solution that M1 chose for this was to blend in GRP V esters, which are more hydrophilic, to solubilize the additive packs. M1 didn't use mineral oils. Of course, things might have changed since then, because "synthetic" doesn't mean what it used to mean any more. BTW, I downloaded that Amsoil white paper last night. It's there if you look for it, but they moved it, so some of the old links to it are dead now. You can find it, but you'll have to search for it. | |||||
| Timebandit |
Here's a very interesting whitepaper on oil, focused on cars, not bikes: http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf | |||||
| Reepicheep |
I just siphoned off a little jug of used Penzoil 20w50 full synthetic (I think that was what was in there) to send to blackstone, so I'll have a data point there. I was running that with about 3000 mile change intervals because it was the cheapest full synthetic of the appropriate weight (for my Uly) I could find. I knew it wasn't a *great* synethetic, it was a cheap synthetic, so I just stuck to shorter change intervals. I'll be interested to see how it wore (and how much silver is in it, given I have a vulnerable crank bearing). The Amsoil that replaced it sure looked thick and sticky, and as it went in, it was cleaning stains off my funnel which had been there for years. |
