| Author | Message | ||
     Fuzzz |
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=47429 | ||
| Trojan |
You have to remember that John Ulrich is a team owner and has had a long standing argument with DMG, so is hardly being impartial or objective, although he does raise a few good points that DMG have so far failed to answer or address fully. I think the true story may lie somewhere between the words spoken by the two warring parties  | ||
| Paint_shaker |
As a racer and based on what I know of the AMA, DMG and John Ulrich, I think Ulrich is closer to the truth. Specifically on the placement of series sponsor logos. The AMA should be consitent across ALL their series and should state WELL in advance (not 5 weeks) of the requirements. Your opinion may vary... | ||
| Amafan |
SO, it is ok to write about another man's personal life on the internet . | ||
| Xb1125r |
I can see from the DMG side that thay want to protect the logo AMA. also as a espectator who is new to racing if i go to a CCS race or anythgin else and see the AMA logo on them, i might think its a AMA race. from the racers side I can see its a hazle to wear a suit with the logo and one without it. well all the logos should be velcrow so racers can apply them and remove them as needed. the logos shoudl be only used in AMA events but also should be removebable as needed | ||
| Fuzzz |
http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=47431 It seems to me that the AMA logo, worn during an non AMA event, is more like advertising than some kind of insult or infringement. A spectator goes to a non AMA event, sees (for example) Geoff May riding a really cool new EBR 1190RS with AMA stickers on it and says to themselves, Wow, maybe I should go to some of those AMA races... But that's just my opinion... I am obviously concerned for those riders mentioned in the article, with the season just about to begin, are they already out of contention??? Ulrich said it, more to come... | ||
| Xb1125r |
Fuzz I agree with you that the AMA logo is a good advertisement, personally I think its cool if they had it all the time. maybe the AMA is worried some rider is going to do something dumb to hurt the image of AMA and since "they never said not to wear it unles is a AMA event" they would not be able to punish the rider. I guess is just a way to protect everyone and the AMA. I think the rules should only apply 2 weeks prior the first race of the season. since the AMA in the first place has not made all the rules concrete. and maybe not all the riders have a contract to even race yet. | ||
| Datsaxman |
The WORST thing a sanctioning body can do is have rules that are different for one person than for another. Good officiating is impossible without impartial standards, and then impartial officials. According to Ulrich, they don't even publish the rules? FAIL. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
xb1125r wrote; "...well all the logos should be velcrow so racers can apply them and remove them as needed." Not a problem when the proper notice is given. But most teams began their graphic designs and leather work back in the latter stages of 2011. DMG didn't give any word of the new rule until late Feb 2012. A lot of people already have their stuff back from the designer or leather works. And again, the rules for AMA Pro Racing are not consistent across the various forms of motorcycle racing... | ||
| Aeholton |
So this begs the question ... Does EBR have all the patches and graphics in order? | ||
| Fuzzz |
Come on Court, tell us what you know.... | ||
| Davegess |
It sure sounds like they are again spinning out of control. Trojan makes a good point about Ulrich being a team owner BUT we have seen the AMA Pro Racing guys get all squirrelly in the past with very erratic rule enforcement or creative interpretations of the rule book so I am inclined to take John's version of this at face value. I am a little surprised Superbike Planet has not jumped on this; he loves bashing the AMA | ||
| Ebear |
Well other than Geoff riding the bike with the logos on it at the ccs race at Homestead...  | ||
| Amafan |
John Ulrich is a great guy, as long as you agree with him, but if you do not, he becomes your worst nightmare . He has been bitching about the 2 jump starts his son Chris got in 2009 for 3 years now, even though the AMA/DMG changed the rule in 2010,and allowed riders that jumped the start, to stop for a second and avoid a jump start penalty . He is making a bigger deal out of the sticker and patch policy, then it is ,all teams need to do is get the stickers and patches they need when they check in at Daytona, and place the stickers on their bike and velcro the patches on their leathers . | ||
| Xb1125r |
this sounds like an excuse for the guys in the AMA to justify their job. ALL talk and no action sounds liek they are with the OBama Party. All the rules should be made available in their website on the 1/1 of the year before the season starts. and the rules can not be changed. | ||
| 46champ |
Just a thought but Superbikeplanet probably isn't saying much because John Ulrich scooped them and they wouldn't want to be seen as supporting something that came from Road Racing World. | ||
| Trojan |
All the rules should be made available in their website on the 1/1 of the year before the season starts. They probably thought that the logo issue was such a minor one that they needn't have posted it. And on the face of it is really does seem like a very minor problem to bitch about when you have a season to prepare for. DMG could give a little ground and just say that the logo has to be visible on the upper body of the leathers, and teams could just get the logo stitched/glued/velcroed on when they arrive at Daytona in the required place if necessary. Altogether it seems to be an issue that really could be solved very easily and amicably if it weren't for the vitriolic history between the parties involved. | ||
| Blake |
Interesting commentary by John Ulrich at http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=4 7440 An excerpt:
2009? What bike is he talking about? Peagram's 1098R ? | ||
| Blake |
Another:
Check out the final four paragraphs for yet greater scandal. Which team? | ||
| Trojan |
2009? What bike is he talking about? Peagram's 1098R ? Hmm, I think you need to look a little closer to home to see which bike he was referring to Blake The Ducati has no problem being homologated for Superbike because anyone (with enough money) can go to a Ducati dealer and order one up. Lets face it, the 1098 that Pegram rode was nothing like the factory F04 bikes that Checa has as they would not be allowed in AMA racing for various technical reasons. The more they issue press releases the furter apart they will be in terms of solving the supposed problems (which are pretty small to be honest). Someone needs to lock DMG and a few team owners in a hotel room for a few hours and let them talk some sense to each other rather than pointlessly bleating to anyone who will listen. Where to place a badge really isn't a major issue. Get over it John. The rest of the arguments are just historical and need to be forgotten now instead of constantly refreshed onlilne surely. As for the electronics argument. So what if Yoshi spend $300,000 a year or $3 a week on them. If they have the money and the rules allow it then good for them. If the organisers want to ban electronics then they should just do it, until then Yoshi are doing nothing wrong surely? | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Again, I am pretty sure it's not so much about the actual placement of the patch or logo, but about providing the info in a timely manner so teams have time to comply with the rule. In this instance of short notice, you would think DMG would have a little flexability. There are only so many leather works people around that actually KNOW what they are doing when working on leather suits and there are FAR more racers. Plus some privateers are on a tight budget. Imagine if you got your leathers back right before or soon after the rule was published and either don't have the time to send the them back or now have to pay extra shipping to send and recieve them... | ||
| Davegess |
They have rolled back the rules to a more reasonable place. They have removed the requirement that you display contingency sponsor logos, you don't get paid if you do this but if you are running a competing sponsor this is important to you. They have given a one race grace period for any missing patches. BUT they have kept the wording that you can't display some of the stickers and decals at non-AMA events which is not only a burden for the riders, taking decals on and off bikes every week is not good. I don't really get this; you would think you would want your name out there everywhere. | ||
| Svh |
Blake it was obviously the EBR 1125RR as it was the only bike NOT available for street legal use nor in the correct production quantity. I too am curious which brand was willing to leave if it wasn't allowed to use its electronics. Most other issues he hints at are simple to figure out who or what he is referring to. Like the rider without enough points that was allowed to move up to Superbike is JD Beach. Kawasaki/Cycle World pushed that. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, >>> Where to place a badge really isn't a major issue. Get over it John. You've missed his point entirely. >>> As for the electronics argument. So what if Yoshi spend $300,000 a year or $3 a week on them. If they have the money and the rules allow it then good for them. Not the issue, just a data point to confirm what we've been saying here for the past year. And "good for them"? You apparently didn't bother to read the rest of the article relating to that issue. I'll summarize, AMA Pro Racing allowed one team who threatened to withdraw to dictate ongoing use of high dollar electronics, despite the desire of AMA Pro Racing and all the other teams to be rid of the high cost electronics. His entire point is to show how AMA Pro Racing has let themselves be run roughshod by a few commercial interests, whether it be patches, homologation, or electronics. His point is that cowtowing to singular commercial interests is very bad for the series. >>> Lets face it, the 1098 that Pegram rode was nothing like the factory F04 bikes that Checa has as they would not be allowed in AMA racing for various technical reasons. That's kind of funny. You are presupposing that AMA Pro Racing didn't bend the rules for Ducati, when the very issue is their bending the rules for commercial interests. And we have a reliable source here who says that they indeed did do just that, and that the bike was indeed a WSBK machine. If you think John is talking about the 1125RR, I think you are way off track. For him to say the bike is not based on a street bike certainly wouldn't point to the 1125RR, which was an 1125R with a few special modifications that were approved by AMA. There were no special modifications approved for the 1098R. Looks like the racer he is talking about is J. D. Beach. He won Supersport in 2008, then garnered 18 pts in Daytona Sport Bike, then started racing American Superbike. Sam (SVH), >>> Blake it was obviously the EBR 1125RR as it was the only bike NOT available for street legal use nor in the correct production quantity. That is inaccurate. If all you are going by is the name employed, "1125RR", then you would be correct. Pretty sure the name of the race version machine is not the issue. Concerning the 1125RR, all you had to do was purchase the homologated RR parts and transform your 1125R into an 1125RR, or you could purchase an already race-prepped machine from EBR themselves. That is no different from any other Superbike machine on the grid. You cannot purchase a current spec Graves Yamaha R1 or a Yoshimura GSXR1000 off a showroom floor; nor are they street legal machines; nor could you replicate one yourself from parts bought from a dealership. We've had this discussion so many times before on BadWeB. Misconceptions about Superbike machines, even in American Superbike, are common and extreme. The EBR 1125RR was nothing more than the AMA Superbike racing machine version of a Buell 1125R. The point is that ALL the modifications were approved/homologated out in the open and above board, and there is no denying that the bike was nothing more than an 1125R modified to race in AMA SBK. Reportedly that was not the case with Pegram's Ducati 1098R. Reportedly, it's WSBK spec upgrades were simply overlooked. Given that we have multiple reliable (yes anonymous) sources stating that Pegram's 1098R was indeed a WSBK machine, you just cannot discount that. Pegram suddenly showing up on the 1098R and then beating the likes of Matt Mladin and setting pol ought to inform the issue. No? The team that threatened to walk was likely Yosh, or Graves. Given the following, another excerpt from John Ulrich's editorial (emphasis mine), which seems more likely?
Hmmm, given the description (emphasis mine) "one of the most successful teams in AMA Pro Superbike history, a team that runs advanced electronic controls, that immediately eliminates BMW and KTM, and Jordan Suzuki, leaving only Yosh and Graves as far as I can see. I'd guess Yosh. | ||
| Blake |
When you carefully analyze Mr. Ulrich's statement more closely it becomes even more clear that he is talking about Pegram's 1098R. By the middle of the 2009 season it was obvious to me that the people running AMA Pro Racing for DMG at the time—especially AMA Pro President Roger Edmondson—were ignoring their own rules as well as any sense of common decency or fairness. Examples are easy to remember: One of the two biggest examples involved the commercially driven homologation of a Superbike that clearly was not based on a production motorcycle, in direct violation of the rulebook. "By the middle of the 2009 season it was obvious"??? EBR didn't even enter the 1125RR until round 8 of 11 at mid-Ohio, and then not again until the final round at NJ. That just doesn't match what Mr. Ulrich is saying. Mid-season would be May or June, rounds 5 or 6 at Infineon or Road America, respectively. It's also tough to see the "commercial interest" being a factor for AMA Pro Racing with EBR. The North American Ducati - Pegram Racing entry however represented a HUGE commercial interest. The statements offered by Mr. Ulrich just don't align with the EBR 1125RR effort. | ||
| Walt221 |
I believe who they were talking about was Chris Clark. 0 points in 2009 Daytona Sportbike after all the races. Superbike rider in 2010. | ||
| Blake |
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| Svh |
Blake my guess is Yosh as well. After looking at it more deeply today I agree with you it was probably Pegrams Ducati. I don't believe that you could even purchase a 1098R here in the States at that time. The AMA racing has been much better and it seemingly has been running much smoother now so I am not sure why he needs to rehash the bad years. I realize that it is a logistical problem to get them sewn on with a tight time frame but there is a huge gap between Daytona and round 2 where the patches could get sewn on. I do not understand why the riders can not display the AMA logo when racing non-AMA events. That is "free" advertising really. I am sure that will be clarified as well soon. | ||
| Slaughter |
It's not just the current patch and location of logos - but the threatening of FINES for showing AMA logo in NON-AMA events (such as MAY/1190RS doing pre-season testing and competing in CCS) Ulrich even used May's pic as an example of what AMA said they could levy fines for doing Pic from the article: http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=47431  | ||
| Blake |
I've received a bunch of email from AMA Pro Racing rescinding that policy, so they've admitted they goofed on it. Good on 'em. |
