| Author | Message | ||
     Trojan |
I was surpeised to see him in BSB, but I guess they pay better. who knows. I just dont see BSB at the level of AMA. I'm afraid your knowledge of racing is letting you down here  1. BSB pays A LOT less than AMA. In fact most riders, other than the very top few, pay to ride rather than getting salaried by teams. Prize money is non existent. Any money a lot of them do get is from personal sponsors mostly. Hopper would have taken a pay cut coming to race in BSB but has substantial personal financial backing which he probably brought to help the team out too. 2. I don't want to start a'our series is better than your series' debate here, but you have obviously never seen a BSB race. The quality of riders it has in the series is probably the best in the world outside of WSB/GP racing. It has far more strength in depth than the current AMA superbike series and the spec of the bikes was (until this year) almost the same as WSB, unlike AMA or other national series. BSB has a massive international following and attracts big names from around the world to ride. You only have to look at this years entry list to see that. BSB is also extremely well regarded by the big international teams and factories. Why do you think more and more US and European riders are looking at using BSB as a means of getting into International competition? | ||
| Jaimec |
AMA SBK took a BEATING when Roger Edmundsen's heavy hand almost destroyed the series. Ever since they fired that jackass, the series has been improving considerably. I think Josh Hayes' showing in Valencia should silence any questions about the quality of AMA racers. | ||
| Trojan |
I think Josh Hayes' showing in Valencia should silence any questions about the quality of AMA racers. There is no doubt about the quality of the best individual AMA racers. The big difference is that the depth of quality in both riders and teams isn't there right down the field as it is in BSB unfortunately. I think it is starting to get better again now that they have regrouped, but it still has a way to go to be at the level of BSB I think,certainly in terms of depth of talent, team structures/funding and infrastucture. | ||
| Xb1125r |
To say that BSB has better riders then AMA and get paid less,is a logic I dont understand. if i was a rider and i know i was good I would go with whoever paid me more. period as far as BSB being popular in europe, well that is europe, but I think like many sports. people as much as they want americans to fail the other half want americans to win | ||
| Jaimec |
That was Mladin's logic. However, not everyone thinks the same way. If you think the pinnacle of motorcycle racing is MotoGP, then AMA SBK (which USED to be a popular feeding ground for the series back in the good old days) is NOT the place to be. You want to be seen in Europe, where motorcycle racing is a much higher profile sport, and where the sponsors are more likely to see you strut your stuff. | ||
| Davegess |
BSB is certainly deeper than AMA in talent and has better equipment up and down the field. It is also a much better place to get you self in front of a much bigger audience that US motorcycle racing gets. | ||
| Jaimec |
I don't know... in 2009 the BSB champion and the AMA Superbike Champion both competed in WSBK, and as I recall the AMA champ did a HELL of a lot better... And the BSB champ had the advantage of being somewhat familiar with SOME of the tracks. The AMA champ only knew Miller (where he gave EVERYONE on the grid a racing lesson that weekend)... | ||
| Blake |
How many BSB champions have won MotoGP races in the last ten years? Back when AMA and WSBK shared identical tech rules, which riders won the USA rounds of WSBK events? Has any BSB rider or WSBK rider ever come to America and dominated in AMA? Have AMA riders dominating in WSBK? In their rookie season no less? Dave, Better equipment? Huh? | ||
| Xb1125r |
well i belive jamie haking came from bsb and he could not handle danny eslick. then spies won the WSBK with no problem and with a new brand too. personally anything the british can do, we do it 10 times better. they have yet to go to the moon | ||
| Bads1 |
Bro you gotta do a little research before posting. Hacking's entire career has been in the US. | ||
| Bads1 |
I'd like to see what AMA riders would do with Cadwell Park. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSVr3bux1Q8&feature =related | ||
| Davegess |
The top bikes are not better but top notch stuff goes way down the field. there are usually about 6 factory bikes in an AMA field, at least in the good old days | ||
| Blake |
>>> anything the british can do, we do it 10 times better. If you are talking about behaving foolishly and spouting nonsense on the internet, you may have just proved that point. | ||
| Trojan |
Back when AMA and WSBK shared identical tech rules, which riders won the USA rounds of WSBK events? The same argument can be used about British Wild Card riders winning WSBK rounds in the UK on a regular basis, or maybe Japanese Superbike racers winning at Suzuka? It proves nothing and as I said, I am not talking about individual stars but the general depth of talent. well i belive jamie haking came from bsb and he could not handle danny eslick. then spies won the WSBK with no problem and with a new brand too. personally anything the british can do, we do it 10 times better. they have yet to go to the moon Jamie Hacking never raced in BSB. Period. He has spent his entire racing career in the US. As for Spies having 'no problem' winning WSB, ask him about Haga  The Yamaha was certainly not a new brand either. To say that BSB has better riders then AMA and get paid less,is a logic I dont understand. if i was a rider and i know i was good I would go with whoever paid me more. period That is probably why you aren't a top rider then  Most riders who want to get to the top will ride where they stand the best chance of being picked up by a WSB/GP team, and that is in European competiton. If they get paid well that is a bonus. Riders who go where the pay packet is largest are not necessarily the best. Mladin spoke a good fight but avoided racing against the rest of the world for most of his career because he got paid more in the AMA. His brief career in GP wasn't exactly stellar was it? The rest of your strange logic defies argument so I won't bother Have AMA riders dominating in WSBK? In their rookie season no less? Again you are using Ben Spies as an example whereas in reality he is the exception. How many AMA riders have even made it into WSB in the last 5-8 years other than Ben Spies? Compare that to the number of BSB riders that have progressed to the top levels in WSB (not just British riders either). Troy Bayliss is just one International star that started his international career in BSB remember. You also have to look at where top riders go when they finish with WSB to see that BSB is still a favoured option, simply because it is ultra competitive and gives riders a chance to get back into WSB if they do well. How many BSB champions have won MotoGP races in the last ten years? None, but then you have to remember that GP and Superbike racing are viewed very differently here. Most riders who plan to have a career in GP racing don't bother witrh BSB or any other domestic British championships and move straight to Spain as soon as they can to race in the Spanish CEV 125 series. This includes Casey Stoner by the way, who moved from British 125 to Spanish CEV after one season. Bradley Smith, Scott Redding, Danny Kent and Danny Webb are all up and coming British 125/Moto3 and Moto2 riders who have almost never raced in Britain. Smith and Redding will move to MotoGP in 2013 (Smith already has a contract with Tech 3 for next year). Moving from Superbikes to GP is still viewed as relatively unusual here, which is why we have seen so few Superbike obsessed Brits even make the move. Only James Toseland and Cal Crutchlow have really made it into relatively established and competitive teams(Tosleand raced most of his career in World Superbikes/Supersports and not BSB), while Neil Hodgson and Shane Byrne were stuck in uncompetitive and under-financed teams with no chance of showing their talent in MotoGP. If you compare the amount of riders who have moved into the leading ranks of WSB from BSB then the comparison with AMA is starkly different. Troy Bayliss, Neil Hodgson, Leon Haslam, Cal Crutchlow, Tom Sykes, Shane Byrne, Sam Lowes, Johnny Rea, Leon Camier and Riuchi Kiyonari have made the transition to WSB in recent years to name but a few. (Other such as Eugene Laverty, Gino Rea and Chaz Davies have got there without racing in BSB at all) (Message edited by trojan on February 17, 2012) | ||
| Jaimec |
My memory MAY be playing tricks on me but... I seem to recall Neil Hodgson getting a rude awakening when he competed in AMA Superbike... He was just another competitor on the field trying to get THIRD place, because 1 & 2 were pretty much sewn up for years... | ||
| Blake |
>>> The same argument can be used about British Wild Card riders winning WSBK rounds in the UK on a regular basis Really? | ||
| Trojan |
My memory MAY be playing tricks on me but... I seem to recall Neil Hodgson getting a rude awakening when he competed in AMA Superbike... Neil ended up coming to AMA aas a very last minute deal to keep him on a Ducati. Unfortunately the bike he rode in AMA was not the same as he had in WSBK and was never competitive enough to fight for a win. When he moved to Honda they were already planning their exit from AMA racing, and once he was injured that was the end of his career even though he tried to make a few comebacks, eventually re-injuring the same shoulder in his first BSB race back. Blake, take a look at British WSB results in the 1990's and 2000's. The number of wild card podium finishers was enormous in comparison to other rounds. Michael Rutter, Chris Walker, Neil Hodgson, Shane Byrne, Steve Hislop, Tom Sykes, and others have all scored pdiums in WSB races as wild card riders. | ||
| Blake |
You've moved the goal posts. You originally stated "winning". | ||
| Trojan |
OK, I have checked through the results for WSB since 2000 for wild card podiums and winners at British and US races. There were some years where no wild card riders took part and there were some years when there were no US based races. However here are the results..... 2000 Donington Park round 4 Race 1 3rd. Neil Hodsgon (BSB wild card) race 2 1st. Neil Hodgson (BSB wild card) 2nd. Chris Walker (BSB wild card) Brands Hatch Round 10 Race 1 2nd. Neil Hodgson (BSB wild card) 3rd. Chris Walker (BS wild card) Race two 1st. Neil Hodgson (BSB wild card) Brand Hatch Round 13 Race 1 1st. John Reynolds (BSB wild card) 3rd. Chris Walker (BSB wild card) 2003 Brands Hatch Round 9 Race 1 1st. Shane Byrne (BSB wild card) Race 2 1st. Shane Byrne (BSb wild card) 2nd. John Reynolds (BSBwild card) 2008 Donington park Round 11 Race 2 Race 1 (heat 1) 1st. Tom Sykes (BSB wild card) Race 1 (heat 2) 2nd. Tom Sykes (BSB wild card) Race 2 2nd. Cal Crutchlow (BSB wild card) Since 2008 there have been very few wild card rides at all because of diverging rule structures betwen the various national Superbike champhionships and WSBK, although John Hopkins did ride with some success as a wild card at Silverstone last year on a BSB spec bike. 2010 was probably the zenith of British riders in WSB with Silverstone race one having 5 Brits taking the top 5 places and both races with all Brit podiums (although of course these were not wild card entries but all contracted to regular WSB teams) During the same period (2000-2011) I haven't found a single AMA wild card rider getting a win or a podium at any of the US based WSB races, and you have to go back into the 1990's to find an AMA rider getting close to a win at a home World Superbike event. (Message edited by trojan on February 21, 2012) | ||
| Davegess |
Looks like winning to me! Wonder if Charlie Sheen would agree | ||
| Blake |
Matt, WorldSBK.com reports the 2008 Round 11 winners at Donnington as Bayliss and Kiyonari. Races red-flagged and broken into "heats" are determined by aggregate time. By AMA rules the heat two winner takes the entire race. Either way, Sykes no win race. So in total you have five BSB wildcard race winners out of 50 UK WSBK races from 2000 through 2008 for a total BSB wildcard win rate of 10%. That is hardly evidence of "British Wild Card riders winning WSBK rounds in the UK on a regular basis" is it? From 1995 through 2003 race 1, AMA wildcard racers won 4 of 17 WSBK races at Laguna Seca for an AMA wildcard win rate of 23.5% Different time interval, okay, check BSB in WSBK for that too, and you get the same 5 but now out of just 38 total races for a slightly improved BSB wildcard win rate of 13.2% Also interesting is that WSBK racers who came through AMA SBK have won 16 of the 63 UK WSBK races since 1995 for an AMA in UK win rate of 25.4% Conversely, BSB veterans Bayliss and Haga have won three of the 24 total US WSBK races since 1995 for a BSB in USA win rate of 12.5% Sorry mate. Advantage AMA. (Message edited by blake on February 21, 2012) | ||
| Bads1 |
Blake you two are like two lil girls. Give it a rest. Does it always need to be debate?? | ||
| M1combat |
Ben Spies beat Valentino Rossi in his rookie year in Moto GP... | ||
| M1combat |
And he beat EVERYONE in his rookie year in WSBK... | ||
| M1combat |
Nearly 25% of the riders in MGP are from the US. Nearly 25% of the riders in MGP are Spanish. We all know why there are so many Spanish riders and we all know why there are so many US riders. Put that in your smoke and pipe it . | ||
| Jaimec |
In all fairness, Rossi missed a slew of races in Ben's rookie year... first time in his entire career he'd missed even ONE race. | ||
| M1combat |
Meh... Ben missed a race or two also... I was totally trolling though. | ||
| Trojan |
Blake, I'm not going to continue arguing over semantics like split races etc as it get very boring (as does the whole argument after a while). The overall aggragate result at race one, Donington in 08 was that Sykes finished 2nd, still not bad for a 'wild card' rider. My point stands that there have been a lot of wild card British riders scoring wins and podiums in WSB over the years (I deliberately didn't go beyond 2000 as WSB, BSB and AMA were all very different series before that time). Your statistic WSBK racers who came through AMA SBK have won 16 of the 63 UK WSBK races since 1995 for an AMA in UK win rate of 25.4% Doesn't tell the whole story either, because the vast majority of these wins were by Colin Edwards and Ben Spies on leading factory bikes, not by wild card riders on domestic spec superbikes at all. In my initial point, I said I didn't want to get dragged into a prolonged pissing contest about which is the best series, and I'm going to bow out now before it goes on any longer | ||
| Crusty |
Who was the better racer; Kenny Roberts or Barry Sheene? | ||
| Jaimec |
Maybe we should start a "My country's Superbike Series is Better Than Yours" thread so we can get back to MotoGP here? And I'm still trying to wrap my brain around HOW the Aprilia qualifies as a "CRT" and not a Factory prototype?? |
