| Author | Message | ||
     Avc8130 |
If your dealer wired it wrong, do you trust they reprogrammed the ecm? | ||
| Timebandit |
> "my bike goes down to 12.2V at idle with the charging harness, is this normal? " you keep asking the same question. are you hoping the answer will be different this time? | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
AVC8130, The ECM is an EBR ECM, and its a later EBR ECM, so I know it works with the charging harness. Timebandit, I want to try and fix it, the last time I asked the question some suggested to change out the relay, which I did, and that's how I found that the charging harness was wired up wrong. But I still don't think its right, I'm looking for suggestions. | ||
| Dannybuell |
Redcrrider ~ I had the same urban riding experience so I disconnected the harness. No more battery lights in traffic. My CR has 16,000 miles and 14,000 miles on the warranty stator. | ||
| Timebandit |
DK if you're looking for suggestions, try this: Run through all of the factory recommended diagnostic procedures in the Electrical Diagnostic Manual, and in the supplement that's contained in the documentation for the Charging System Upgrade (aka Service Bulletin B-099). Doing that WILL find the answer to your problem. Those diagnostic procedures are exactly what a servicing dealership would use to diagnose your bike. The important thing to remember is that your charging system is performing abnormally. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You need to use the official diagnostic procedures to find the problem, or take the bike to someone who can find the problem for you. Good luck. | ||
| Timebandit |
Just a reminder -- EXPIRATION is TODAY! If you want the update and you haven't done it yet, call your dealer to get them to open a ticket for you. I think today is the last day they can do this on H-D's dime. | ||
| Timebandit |
Danny, I think this has been said before, so at the risk of beating a dead horse: If anyone is getting charging failures at idle, then the problem is that the harness update is not working according to it's design specification. You need to troubleshoot the harness to get it to the point that it works as designed. There's another thread in the charging system forum where I plotted a chart of the charging system's output vs. RPM. The relay in the harness is supposed to be switching the charging system back to full output at idle, so you shouldn't have a problem charging with a 2009/10 system at idle. If the 2009/10 charging system isn't making adequate voltage at idle, check for the following: 1. Improperly installed harness update. There have been reports that a fair number of dealers haven't properly hooked up the control wire that goes from the ECM to the relay. Without it, the harness won't work. 2. Verify that you have proper ECM software. If you don't have software in the ECM that's enabled to control the wire to the relay, the system won't work. 3. Verify that the relay is working properly. These relays are prone to carbon fouling from the high voltage high current switching. You should replace the relay as preventive maintenance. I'd recommend doing it every couple thousand miles with your oil changes. In summary, you have to have a relay that works, you have to have software that knows how to control the relay, and you have to have a wire that's hooked up to properly connect the ECM to the relay. Everyone one of these three devices is a potential failure point. If anyone is having problems, it's absolutely essential to run through the recommended diagnostic procedures in the service manuals. All of them. Skip one step in the decision tree and your entire troubleshooting effort is rendered invalid. | ||
| Avc8130 |
DKTech, When you got the harness installed, did you have the stock ECM? Do you know the dealer updated to the 152 (CR) tune? If the answer to both is "yes", swap the ECM back to stock and see if your bike charges at idle. Report back your findings. ac | ||
| Stimbrell |
Can someone at EBR please confirm the above post by Timebandit. The oil change should be every 2,000 miles, not what the BMC manuals state, about 6,000 miles, hell of a difference, and that the relay needs to be replaced every 2,000 miles, I regularly drive over 1,000 miles a week using various bikes and cars, is it really true this bike potentially needs a relay changing every two weeks of use? I am asking this question of EBR, not interested in anyone Else's opinion, I just want the facts from EBR. Is this bike really not streetable? and if so, why was it sold as being so? | ||
| Timebandit |
> "Is this bike really not streetable? and if so, why was it sold as being so?" Stimbrell, aren't you the guy who always posts about how much he hates his 1125 and how much he hates H-D? I seem to remember a lot of really scathing posts with your name on them. Like this one: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=290431&post=2146287#POST2146287 > "the bike is a piece of shit, totally unreliable and can not be trusted at all." ^^^ Yeah -- that kind of comment is going to make the guys at EBR want to jump to answer your question. and this one: http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=290431&post=2114379#POST2114379 > "If you have an 09 up 1125 the stator will fail unless your bike is a garage queen, HD has a policy of replacing the known faulty stator with exactly the same faulty part until you run out of warranty when it becomes your very expensive problem, this is the reason I will never be buying another HD in my life. A shame as I really love the Sportsters. Yes I know there will be the odd exception who gets loads of miles out of their stators without problems but Harley has lost probably four or five new bike sales from me as a near 50 year old, because of the treatment HD has chosen to inflict on 1125 owners." When I do a search of the forum for "stimbrell", all I see are posts where you are pissing and moaning about the bike. Maybe those posts aren't accurate in representing your outlook, but to me you seem like a guy with a hostile attitude about the bike. Please don't displace your anger upon me. I'm not trying to cause a fight with anyone. I'm just trying to help. If you don't like what I say, feel free to just ignore me. I won't be offended. I don't think that any personalized confirmation is forthcoming from EBR. I also don't think that it's even necessary. It is a matter of fact that there are 3 parts to the charging harness upgrade that all have to work together for the system to work as intended. Anyone who can read a schematic, or the plain english explanation in the TSB can see the obvious answer that question. There's no need for anyone to weigh in on the subject. This is nothing more than plain common sense. About oil changes -- Nobody ever said that you have to change oil every 3000 miles. I didn't recommend it. Do whatever you want. It's just that most people around here seem to have doubts about shear stability and are doing oil changes at intervals that are more frequent than the H-D recommended interval. Take that for what it's worth and do what you think is best. If you're one of those people who changes oil frequently, my personal opinion is to check your relay for proper functioning just as often, because it is a matter of fact that the relays fail after short service lives. If you don't want to check your relay that often, nobody is forcing you. Just don't expect anyone to care when you burn up your stator and try to piss and moan and get attention. Regardless of what anyone wants to believe, and regardless of what anyone is willing to admit, the ISO-footprint automotive relays are designed for switching low DC voltage and they are not good in these high AC voltage / high AC current applications. They fail due to overvoltage / overcurrent and the failure is manifest as arcing of the contacts. Smart people are willing to learn from other peoples' mistakes. They are keeping an eye on this inexpensive part and changing them out before they cause problems. Knowing this, does it even matter if H-D or EBR are willing to make a statement for the record? We're talking about spending pocket change to make your bike more reliable. You've been led to water. Whether or not you choose to drink is entirely up to you. Good luck with your bike. (Message edited by timebandit on February 15, 2012) | ||
| Timebandit |
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=290431&post=2172611#POST2172611  | ||
| Stimbrell |
I shall remind myself how lucky I am to own this bike when it goes back to the dealer yet again next week with a sys voltage error and charging light on, again, the LFL when full of fuel and the fuel pressure error, lucky, lucky me to own such a fantastic motorcycle. | ||
| Redcrrider |
Avc8130, I respectfully disagree. Did you design the harness for HD? Unless you designed it or talked directly to the person that did, I would seriously question your information, even if it came from someone at Erik buell racing. How can it shut off one leg of the stator and not see a voltage drop at idle, both fans running? That makes no sense. I could easily say, "If your voltage doesn't drop at idle, then your harness isn't working." | ||
| Redcrrider |
Why would it be designed to switch to full output at idle? That's when oil flow is the lowest and heat soak is the highest? Makes absolutely no sense to me. At any rate, I have a free harness for anyone that wants one. Just send me a pm. | ||
| Avc8130 |
Red, Disagree all you want. I didn't design the harness. Didn't even talk directly to the guy who did. EBR? LOL. Would never waste my time there. There are 3 sources of information I use: 1. A multimeter. It is not difficult to sit in the garage and rev the bike with a multimeter on the coil side of the relay to see what is going on. 2. The service manual (w/ product improvment update). Pretty clear how to test function in there. 3. A few very smart individuals we are not allowed to talk about on this forum that have been inside the ECM w/ flash 152. There is a very simple table in there that is RPM dependant that opens/closes the relay. Timebandit and I have cited that table. Full output at idle? Find me a bike that has a charging system with "full output" at idle. I would imagine the stator has all 3 legs active at idle because so little power is made at idle that all 3 legs are needed to even remotely keep the bike charged. I would never expect 14V on ANY bike at idle. Every bike I have ever owned specified charging tests to be done at some rpm above idle. If you are going to "give away" your harness, at least do the next guy the service of pointing out that it is useless without the latest ECM flash. ac | ||
| Timebandit |
Why would it be designed to switch to full output at idle? That's when oil flow is the lowest and heat soak is the highest? Makes absolutely no sense to me. When you said "full output at idle", you probably should have said "reversion to from 1-phase to 3-phase output at idle". That would have made your statement accurate. As AC pointed out, "full output at idle" isn't really what's going on. That is because AC voltage output from the stator is a linear function of RPM. The output gets closer to zero as you let the RPM decline. Regardless of whether or not you understand why they did things the way they did, the facts remain that they did things the way they did. The facts don't change just because you don't understand the designer's logic. What AC stated are the facts. This has all been discussed in great detail in the charging system forum. IF this stuff isn't making sense to you, I think reviewing the recent threads from the last month or two will really help you to understand what's going on. If you still have questions, post in the charging system forum and I'll try to help. (Message edited by timebandit on February 16, 2012) | ||
| Timebandit |
EBR? LOL. Would never waste my time there. AC, I think that's a little harsh. It's not as if the guys who designed the bike are all gone. The main guys are still with EBR. , And they are really nice people who are just very, very busy. I think they've been doing as much as they can to help us, though in some respects their hands may be tied. | ||
| Timebandit |
Full output at idle? Find me a bike that has a charging system with "full output" at idle. I would imagine the stator has all 3 legs active at idle because so little power is made at idle that all 3 legs are needed to even remotely keep the bike charged. I would never expect 14V on ANY bike at idle. Every bike I have ever owned specified charging tests to be done at some rpm above idle. AC, your analysis of why the bike 3-phases at idle are spot-on. If you plot a table of stator AC voltage vs. RPM you'll see that the AC voltages at idle are pretty darned low/marginal. If the bike stayed single-phased at idle it would never develop enough voltage AND current to adequately charge the battery. By single-phasing at idle, the user could easily deplete the battery in traffic / at stoplights in short order. That puts you at risk of a failure to restart if the engine is shut off or stalled. The obvious answer to the question about why they go back to 3-phase at idle is pretty straightforward -- they do it to charge the battery so that you don't get left stranded. Yes, doing this generates heat when the bike's RPM/oil flow is low, and heat puts you at risk for stator failure. But depleting the battery puts you at risk of being stranded. This was obviously a decision that favored the lesser of the two evils from a reliability standpoint. If anyone is worried about the effect that this will have on their bike, the obvious answer is DON'T KEEP THE BIKE IN A LOW RPM STATE. Ride the bike fast and these problems aren't a problem. To all the posters who are arguing about the perceived function of the harness -- you are basing your arguments upon your perceptions and understanding, rather than the facts. Unfortunately, your perceptions don't align with the facts. There has been a lot of new knowledge that has come along in the past month or two. It's possible that you're just not up to speed. Go read the latest posts in the charging system forum so that you've got the facts and you're up to speed. Always better to have discussions that are based on accurate facts than inaccurate perceptions. If you still have questions, post in the charging system forum and I'll try to help you. | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
"the obvious answer is DON'T KEEP THE BIKE IN A LOW RPM STATE" This is not always possible, especially in town at stop lights. The first 9k miles I had this bike it ran great, and 7k of those miles were with the charging harness. Since my stator failed, and the dealer changed the stator, VR and battery, the bike has very low voltage at idle. I know this bike can idle with sufficient voltage for extended periods of time because I have seen it. AC, EBR has most of the engineers that designed the 1125, they know more then anyone about the 1125, and any info from them should be taken as fact. | ||
| Avc8130 |
DK, Don't know what to tell you...the harness should have NO bearing on charging at idle. If yours is, something is wrong with your harness. I take things I know to be facts as facts. I know for a fact that not ALL EBR ECMs have stator control logic. ac | ||
| Timebandit |
It sounds like there are always going to be a fair number of people who choose to ride "streetable" versions of purpose built race bikes on the street and then suffer problems related to the bike being poorly suited for the commuting application. This problem happens with many different brands of bikes. What astonishes me is that people are just unwilling to accept the truth -- that the 1125 is poorly suited for some of the riding conditions that they put it in, and their complaints about performance in those scenarios are unreasonable. Lots of people keep saying "Harley advertised this bike as a street bike." Unfortunately, it sounds like a lot of people bought a motorcycle (and a line of shit) from a salesman at a Harley store. Because of the fire sale, the prices were so cheap that buyers couldn't bear to pass on the deal, and ended up buying the 1125 even though it turned out to be the wrong bike for their intended use. When the 1125 first came out, everyone knew it was a balls-out bike and not an air-cooled v-twin cruiser. It was intended to be one step beyond the air-cooled Buells, and it delivered the goods -- so well, in fact, that the bike was pretty unpopular when it first came out -- so unpopular that BMC had trouble selling the bike in 2008 and 2009. They were stacking up in inventory at the factory and they weren't moving many units at $13,000. The reason that the 1125 had the $5000 rebate applied to it while all of the other Buells did not is because so few people were buying the 1125. H-D needed to dump them, and announced to wall street that they were going to take a huge tax loss on the 1125 just to get them off the books. So when the axe came down, H-D knew they could keep the prices high for the air-cooled Buells, and they slashed the price on their unpopular 1125. The result? The 1125 cost $5500 and a Uly still cost $12,000. All sorts of people who never would have otherwise bought the 1125 bought them just because they were cheap. The result? People now piss and moan that their race bike doesn't like to sit at stoplights or putter around town. No surprises there. At the risk of stating the obvious, if you spend a lot of time commuting and your 1125 is spending a lot of it's time at stoplights, chances are you are on the wrong bike. Maybe you should have spent twice as much and bought the Ulysses. That's not so much an opinion as a fact. The guys that designed this bike didn't design it to be puttered around town commuting, or for it to be sitting at stoplights. They designed it to race. Maybe somebody in H-D sales might have successfully bullshitted you, but the long and short of it is that this bike is a fast sportbike, not an air-cooled putter-around-town v-twin cruiser. Ride the bike like the designers meant for it to be ridden and you won't be disappointed. Ride it like it's a substitute for something else and you'll be pissing and moaning until the cows come home. | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
Timebandit, My 1125 worked well the first 9K miles, its only after the dealer changed the stator and VREG that the idling votlage is not right. I know they did not reinstall the charging harness properly, so I took it back and had them install it right. Before this dealer messed with my 1125, it never idled under 12.8V, but now it goes down to 12.2V. Stop saying this bike was designed for racing, I know that, but it can still idle at a sufficient voltage, I know this because because my 1125 used to. I'm sick of people saying this is a race bike, and deal with it, the fact is, mine worked fine as a street bike its first 9k miles, now it doesn't, I want to fix it, not hear that I shouldn;t ride it on the street. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Dktech - If you spend a lot of time idling and don't run heated gear, consider the 08 system from EBR. Your 09, before the harness update, ran all 3 phases of the alternator at idle. it charged fine. it burned up.  The harness turns it down to single phase at idle and the battery discharges. the rotor doesn't burn up  Z | ||
| Stimbrell |
Much as I hate how unreliable this bike is as a V twin it is very good around town, smooth power makes a good bike around town and with only the EBR ecm this bike is far better round town than any of the Japanese multis or two strokes I have owned, yes that is right, I know all about bikes that need high revs to perform, sorry to disappoint those who say people with problems must only have ridden HDs. | ||
| Avc8130 |
The harness turns it down to single phase at idle and the battery discharges. the rotor doesn't burn up Just keep stoking the fire of myths. | ||
| Timebandit |
Zac, there's a serious technical error in what you said. I think that's what AVC was referring to as "stoking the fire of myths." A properly functioning harness does not single-phase the system at idle. It only single phases somewhere in the range of 2000 to 4200 RPM*, and remains 3-phase at all other speeds. A malfunctioning harness can single phase the system at idle. That means you have defective system that needs troubleshooting. An easy way to test for proper function is to grab your DVM and look at what's happening in the stator leads as the bike changes RPM through the switching band. * Those 2000 - 4200 numbers may not be the exact threshold values for switching but they are close -- I don't remember the exact numbers offhand, I'd have to look them up (too many numbers coming into and out of my head to remember the specifics, but they're documented in the forum). | ||
| Timebandit |
DK, if your harness was installed improperly, then it was incapable of protecting your stator during the entire period of it's mis-installation. It's possible that the improper installation damaged other components in your electrical system -- either directly, or indirectly by failing to protect them, thereby allowing them to fail. If I were in your shoes I'd be thinking about consequential damages caused by defective workmanship. It would be important to review the timing of your stator/vreg change-out relative to the installation of the harness and the repair of the harness. You may have a perfectly functional harness right now, but the damage might already have been done to your stator during the period when it was improperly installed. IF that's the case, somebody should be buying you a new stator. I know this is frustrating, but the solution is going to require reading the electrical diagnostics manual and running through all of those diagnostics that you're been avoiding. The first thing I'd do is to verify that all of the wires are properly connected and have low-impedance connections. Then I'd be looking at the control logic function in the relay and the stator/vreg outputs. Don't be surprised if wire connections are still bad. Or if the troubleshooting tells you that that your stator may be failing, or that your voltage regulator is defective and needs to be replaced. You might be able to argue for a stator replacement because of the screw-up, but those voltage regulator electronics can just die from the hours of use because of the heat they're exposed to. You might just need a new vreg. Run all of the diagnostic tests. You might have to spend money on costly parts. Until you've done that, advice alone is not going to help you. Good luck. (Message edited by timebandit on February 18, 2012) | ||
| Curve__carver |
(Message edited by curve__carver on February 18, 2012) | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
I'm running diagnostics today. I'll post the results. | ||
| Dktechguy112 |
ok I ran some diagnostic tests: 1. charging harness relay has zero resistance between pins 30 and 87A. (relay not enerergized) 2. when 12V is placed across 85 and 86, the relay is energized (pins 87 and 30 are connected, and therefore have zero resistance) 3. I checked for and found 12V on the active intake(178A) gray pin, and 12V on pin 4 where the relay connects. 4. I found 0V on connector 360B at idle and above 4k rpms, as expected. 5. There is continuity between pin 1 of connector 47AA and 47BB with the ignition on, which means the 3rd leg is connected at idle. 6. When I bypass the harness I get 13.6-14.1V at idle. I'm at a loss, based on the tests, the charging harness is working, but at idle the voltage is very low (12.1V). When I bypass the charging harness, the bike works as it supposed to. I'm thinking the charging harness itself has an issue, because the relay is working, the ground wire from the ECM is working as programmed, the active intake is providing 12V as expected. My dealer had the resistor plugged into connector 360A, 360A is supposed to have the ECM wire connected to it. I'm wondering if this could have damaged the charging harness? |
