| Author |
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Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2012 - 03:58 pm: | 
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99 X1, V&H muffler, race ecm, K&N filter, NGK plugs.
No codes via ECMSpy.
TPS reset, AFV set to 100.
Will not idle long below 1350.
Runs VERY hot. I can rev it up to learning mode and watch the AFV drop to 70. Yesterday, idle would hang up @ 2k. Plenty of vapor from head re-breather.
Help? Changed O2 sensor 4 months ago, not giving me an O2 error. No detectable manifold leaks. SOMETHING is telling the ECM to lean out, but what?
PLEASE help! Thanks, and thanks so far to all that have lent an idea. Special thanks to Tootal for the throttle shaft Nd Froggy the ECMSpy guru. |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 12:08 pm: |
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Just because you swap out a part with a new part doesn't mean the new part is good or will last that long. I know I know, but I spent $$ on it.
Bottom line is sometimes that part(s) leave the mfr and aren't working right, aren't handled right, or break down minutes/months after you just replaced it/them.
I'd guess your O2 sensor is aping up again. Check your wiring and make sure there are zero issues. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 - 12:39 pm: |
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I hear you. I was thinking the O2 was the problem too No error codes on the O2, though. Retarded the timing a touch and it seems much better. Couldn't be that simple, could it? |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2012 - 12:02 pm: |
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Usually not. The upside for you is that you're still riding!
As we sit here wishing we were too, you have our attention when you need it vs. the summer months. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2012 - 01:16 pm: |
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Yes, winter is a myth here.
I'll be riding this week, maybe it needs road time to work some bugs out. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2012 - 06:45 pm: |
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rode to work this morning, 36F. 6.2 mile ride, kinda rough the last 2 miles. Rode home, 58F, wanted to either idle @ 2k or die. Wife has the laptop, so no ECMSpy telemetry.
Before retarding the timing, it did this same idle thing. Going to advance the timing: had it right the first time.
Any thoughts?
(Message edited by mstrfrz on January 18, 2012) |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 08:29 am: |
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Move it back to original timing I guess.
If you are idling high, that is an indication of intake seals that are on the fritz. Do you have propane or mapp gas? Can you attach a hose to the outlet of the bottle? If yes to both, you can use propane or mapp gas to check around the seals. PLEASE DON'T USE CARB CLEANER OR THE LIKE. If your idle increases while you are moving the gas around the seals, that tells you the seals are either installed incorrectly, as in new, or that they need to be replaced.
You'll find what is wrong. Troubleshooting is like your wife, complicated but in the end rewarding. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 11:30 am: |
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The seals are fairly new, and have a few hundred good miles on them. Did a quick check last week w/ WD40: will try propane tonight.
Afv is now at 81.
What is normal operating temp? Shouldn't the idle be set at that temp?
The idle is either high (2k) or low (800) after riding a while. The throttle is not sticking, and tps output seems constant. |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 01:02 pm: |
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A fuel pressure test wouldn't hurt either.
it will give you some hints when fuel pressure would be low.
I had a similar issue not long ago.
I went round and round for weeks trying to figure out what was going on. Turned out be the fuel pump regulator the culprit.I changed it, and the problem went away.
that was mine, yours may be different.
This may not be your problem but it’s an idea....
Engine temp sensor controls both ignition timing and fuel management.
But the head temp sensor is also a very likely culprit. They can go bad and still not throw a fault code, and when they do, the engine can run pretty bad. I don't know a better way to test it than to just put a new one in.
One other thought..........
Hope that helps!.
Good luck and let us know the solution. |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 01:10 pm: |
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AFV should be reading 100 or a little more for both cylinders.
Idle should always be set AFTER a good engine/trans heat soak.
I would disconnect the TPS connector and hook up a DVM (digital volt meter) to it set on OHMS (set for correct ohms range) and SLOWLY sweep the throttle back and forth, looking for any dead spots in the TPS output.
And, just because you "just put new intake seals in" doesn't mean they are not leaking. One side could be tighter than the other, causing a leak. Idle that goes from 2K down to 800 isn't right obviously. I would take it apart again because it sure sounds like this is your idle problem.
Please don't use WD40, carb cleaner products on any rubber parts on your bike. Chemicals will destroy that rubber. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 01:26 pm: |
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As you said before, there are no guarantees with new parts. The ets and cmp are both new too.
Didn't know intake seals were rubber.
Would ECMSpy show any flat spots in the tps?
I'll start with the intake seals, ohm out the ets, then look at the tps.
Still looking for what normal operating temp should be... |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 01:58 pm: |
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Yes, ECMspy will show TPS flat spots.
Make sure your ETS is down tight against the head.
Normal op temp varies from bike to bike, that is why ETS has a range before it throws a code. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 03:44 pm: |
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Wouldn't leaking intake seals make the bike lean and therefore the ecm would up the afv? |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 07:15 pm: |
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No rpm change from propane. |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2012 - 09:36 pm: |
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Sorry Freeze...I'm at work, so not checking much.
OK, sounds like the intake seals are OK.
TPS reset, when you did it, did you let the bike idle for about 10 minutes? IIRC, that is what you need to do...then take it out for a ride, varying your throttle input over a wide range to help the ECM adapt to the reset and stabilize your new TPS reset. If you did not do this, you may want to re-do the TPS reset again, but this time let it idle for 10 minutes and then ride it, varying the throttle input over a wide range.
You get this problem figured out soon, have faith. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 08:29 am: |
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thanks for the support. Really.
Engine temp was 140C when I did the reset, then a 20 mile ride, trying to keep the rpm steady. I'll try it again, but then a city drive to vary the throttle. How long a ride?
Rode to work again this morning after putting the timing back. At the office, it was wanting to do it's drop off and die thing. Got it idling around 1200-1300. then, as I sat there, it ran itself back up to 2k. Running hot again too, in my opinion.
I've had this bike since 2000. Recently, I had a new clutch, cage, intake seals, throttle shaft, ETS, drive belt, battery, O2 sensor, oil change, breather re-route, cam sensor, and throttle cables. Perhaps too much at once?
I do have faith, but am getting frustrated. The stealerships treat it like an alien, and they are WAY too expensive!
Perhaps I need a new TPS. Fuel injectors, pump, and regulator are all suspect now too. Unfortunately, the only checks I can do on those are thru ECMSpy.
(Message edited by mstrfrz on January 20, 2012) |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 10:14 am: |
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"how long a ride?" Not a trip across the state, but enough where there is plenty of various TPS inputs to the ECM since the TPS reset.
You sure would KNOW YOUR BIKE WELL with all that seat time. Wow, I'm impressed. If you say it's running hot, then I'd say that you are probably running lean as you mentioned earlier.
All sensor inputs to the ECM require two things, a voltage (variable or not) and a good ground. You've checked both connectors at the ECM and all grounds on the bike right?
I think BuellisticX1 above has a good idea about the ETS being the trouble maker here. I'd like you to consider putting a new ETS sensor in. Here is the link... http://www.americansportbike.com/shoponline/ccp0-p rodshow/17035.html
For the price of 1 hour of trouble shooting at a dealer, you can have a new ETS sensor. You may want to consider the socket too on the link page. Makes it easier to remove the old one and place the new one. Call Al at American Sport Bike to make sure you get the exact one you need.
Now that it's the weekend, I'll be shoveling when I get home tonight.
Edit: Was just thinking about this ETS sensor. I replaced the one in the 2000 X1 I own last Spring. Symptoms were stumbling at idle, at speed on the gas, then bike couldn't figure out what to do with more throttle, then it would speed up again. Poor performance, lack of power to pass cars (actually was not comfortable doing it, that's how bad it was). I think the ETS will fix your issues.
(Message edited by two_seasons on January 20, 2012) |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 10:25 am: |
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I sure do miss the snow. Honestly! I could tell you stories from Bosnia... We don't get as many riding days here in Houston as you might expect. Started this morning at 67F. Too much rain and really too hot in the summer to enjoy too much riding.
The ETS is new (a few months & maybe 100 miles) but could have been bad from the start.
I'll go thru my connectors and grounds. Wish I had ECMSpy running when it ran up to 2k by itself.
If I pull the throttle body and run the injector diagnostic, I should see them squirt, right?
Looking for a good price on a TPS. Anybody got part#'s for my suspect parts? |
Two_seasons
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 01:06 pm: |
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If you replaced the ETS recently, I'd check to see if you are shorting via the cabling that comes out of the head. My old one had chaffing where it passed out of the head (rubbing off the insulation) to the mating connector.
Regarding your injectors, no clue. Makes sense to me though.
Call Al at American Sport Bike and ask him if he has a TPS for you. |
Buellisticx1
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 02:22 pm: |
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If you have recently worked on/changed something, re-check your work.
if it were me, first of all would check fuel lines if they were blocked and replace the fuel filter. Just my opinion.
How many miles on the bike?
The simplest solutions are almost always harder to find. |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 03:19 pm: |
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The fuel lines are new, though I haven't removed the fuel pump in quite some time. I have a second fuel filter installed, but perhaps the first one is clogged.
Approaching 40K on the odo.
My main concern is WHY the AFV is so low. Restricted flow, clogged filters, and a leaking intake would cause the ECM to try and richen up rather than lean out.
High fuel pressure, leaky injectors, or bad ETS/TPS/O2 input would cause it to lean out.
All the work I've done has been slow and meticulous. I redid the breathers 3 times before I was happy with it. I can't account for parts being bad out of the box, or other unseen gremlins. The worst is a combination of factors. |
Jcs64
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 05:11 pm: |
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Id agree w/ your thought on the AFV being A low # when you have too much fuel. That # is saying the the ecm is trying to remove fuel from the system because the sensors think there is already too much present.
100 is perfect
75 would be the bike is sensing rich and pulling out 25% fuel (fuel maps working @ 75% there stated value)
150 (like my issue) would be sensing a lean condition and the ecm is adding 50% more to the stated value.
W/ that, Id say your getting too much fuel and the 'puters trying to pull it out. Ill take a guess at leaky/sticky injectors.
Dont know if this test would work w/ the buells setup? On a cars fuel rail there is a schrader fitting (just like on your bike, under the tank) that you would put a gauge on to check the pressure. You would hook it up, cycle the pump on and off, then watch the gauge to see if the injectors are holding back the press.
If the gauge drops quick, the injectors are leaking.
Like I said, I dont know if the Buell system works like this, but is something to think about. You could also check the wiring to the injectors to make sure there not grounding out. Huh? does a ground signal cause the injector to fire or is it a "+" signal? If its a neg. signal, an exposed grounded wire would dump fuel like crazy.
SeaFoam wouldnt hurt if its a sticky injector
Jeff |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 07:51 pm: |
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I'm leaning toward a bad injector/s myself. Running ECMSpy, the front injector Pulswidth was about .5 higher than the rear. Hopefully, this is something I can adjust in the program. (anyone know??) Also, the front ve value, whatever that is, was 4 points higher than the rear.
Riding home, the motor got pretty hot again. Enough to heat the tank and make it bulge. Had to take off the gas cap to telease the pressure. Faulty vent?
@ 90 AFV, I could get it to idle pretty well, but it eventually kinda died like it ran out of gas and wouldn't restart. Possible vaporlock. If I turn off the O2 senso and run open loop, then the AFV won't change, right? Plus it could take that variable out of the equation while I figure this !@#$ out.
Also, learning mode in idle; is that something I should do?
What would be an appropriate guage and who knows how to properly hook it to my fuel system to check pressures?
Thanks all for the continued input. |
Harleyelf
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 08:06 pm: |
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Yes, your vent is faulty or perhaps just dirty. The tank should never bulge, or you would be unable to get gas at night and leave the bike where the sun will shine on it. There is a valve by the fuel outlet that will allow you to check pressure. It takes a special gauge. If the vent is plugged solid, that could explain the restricted fuel flow but not the difference between cylinders. |
Jcs64
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 10:06 pm: |
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A plugged vent will not be good.
First im surprised that its not stalling out at constant cruising speeds (cant suck fuel if theres no air coming into the tank.
Second, When you noticed the tank bulge, could it be that the extra pressure is forcing its way past the injectors.
Next time your idle starts rising by itself, pop open your tank cap to lower the pressure. Or better yet clear the vent line :-)
The pressure gauge and fitttings can be had at your local auto parts store (advanced auto, Pepboys).
Jeff |
Mstrfrz
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2012 - 11:09 pm: |
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The vent was working while I was running the pump diagnostic. I was doing something else (engine off) when I heard the tank cover move because of the bulge, so the vent quit at some point. I know the vent has a ball valve; there couldn't possibly be enough vapor pressure to close it, could there? If I can work on it some tomorrow, I'll do it with the cap off.
Will try and get a pressure guage too.
An intermittent or sticking valve could be contributory, but enough to cause the ecm to lean out while riding?
Would enabling closed loop during idle help? Or learning mode? |
Jcs64
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 10:24 am: |
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An intermittent or sticking valve could be contributory, but enough to cause the ecm to lean out while riding?
Well, if the pressure is building inside the tank, could it be pushing more pressure than what the injectors are expected to see? What is the operating fuel pres supposed to be?
If its over pres, that would richen things up and cause the AFV to start dropping in order to cut back fuel supply.
HMmmmm........
jeff} |
Jcs64
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 10:51 am: |
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Just looked it up 4u,
w/ the engine running at 2500-3000rpm,
fuel pres should be 46-53 psi.
I know the plugged vent isnt causing that kind of pres inside the tank, but could it be boosting it up? |
Jcs64
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 10:57 am: |
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http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores /servlet/product_Fuel-Pressure-Tester-Kit-Actron_9 030328-P_N3065_A%7CGRP2020A_____
gauge test kit |
Harleyelf
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 11:15 am: |
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You don't have 50 psi in the tank or it would burst. Fuel filters are available at your auto parts store; bring your original in and they'll match it. The wires to your injectors are in a position to chafe against the seat. Have you examined them closely? Pull them through your fingers and feel for a flat spot indicating broken wire strands. Run new wires from the ECM to the injectors if you have to. Inadequate signal strength to the injectors can cause lean running, which we all know leads to overheating. Both heads get too hot? The same temperature? |
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